Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Sensors, other thoughts  (Read 6042 times)

marcmccalmont

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1780
Sensors, other thoughts
« on: August 16, 2006, 08:42:59 pm »

1. I'm not familiar with the process used to manufacture sensors but I always thought a round sensor would allow me to get all the image from a round lens and I could crop any aspect ratio later when processing the RAW file?
2. Since film has a randomness to the silver halide and we are conditioned to seeing that over a lifetime would there be an advantage to a sensor having say 3, 4 and 6 micron photocells arranged in a pseudo random patern like a latin square (sudoku)?
3. One last thought from a beginners point of view... I wish Digital SLRs had a user interface like a modern aircraft's FMS. A screen with line select keys on each side and an enter button, quick easy and intuitive.
4. One more last thought since I'm new at this, an industry standard for displaying histograms in stops (cameras and software), the audio industry always displays amplitude vs. frequency in octaves.
Marc
Logged
Marc McCalmont

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
Sensors, other thoughts
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2006, 11:46:54 pm »

Quote
1. I'm not familiar with the process used to manufacture sensors but I always thought a round sensor would allow me to get all the image from a round lens and I could crop any aspect ratio later when processing the RAW file?

That would be ideal, but you'd have to pay for it. We live in a square world. Square books, square prints, square TV sets, square wafers from which the sensors are cut. (I'm not making a distinction betweeen square and rectangular here, in case someone wants to make an issue of it.)

It boils down to basic economics. Round sensors would involve more wastage and more cost.

Quote
2. Since film has a randomness to the silver halide and we are conditioned to seeing that over a lifetime would there be an advantage to a sensor having say 3, 4 and 6 micron photocells arranged in a pseudo random patern like a latin square (sudoku)?

No advantage at all that I can see. Only disadvantages. A 3 micron photodiode next to a 6 micron photodiode could and would result, in many circumstances, in the 3 micron pixel being completely blown and providing no useful picture information whatsoever. In other circumstance (and there's a lot of variability of circumstances when the light from a scene falls on a sensor), the 3 micron pixel would just rob the larger pixel of potential light which could reduce noise.

Quote
4. One more last thought since I'm new at this, an industry standard for displaying histograms in stops (cameras and software), the audio industry always displays amplitude vs. frequency in octaves.

Lens MTF charts provide similar information, but what you are suggesting implies a histogram so sophisticated that it can analyse lens resolution in relation to a given target. It might be possible, but you'd have to pay more for that. Does a practical photographer need such an analysis on the fly, for example, 'Maximum resolution: 32 lp/mm at 47% MTF; minimum resolution: 2 lp/mm at 92% MTF. At best it would be an indication you didn't hold the camera steady, or the shutter speed was not sufficient. The amount of technology added to the lens and camera body to achieve this outcome could be not only ridiculously expensive but add considerably to the weight of the camera.

I know nothing about the user interface of modern aircraft.
Logged

jani

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1624
    • Øyet
Sensors, other thoughts
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2006, 03:27:45 am »

Quote
That would be ideal, but you'd have to pay for it. We live in a square world. Square books, square prints, square TV sets, square wafers from which the sensors are cut.
No, the wafers are circular (see the pretty images).

I guess you could make a roughly circular sensor, but since you'd want it to be larger than today's rectangular sensors, it would cost a lot more because of a lower yield rate and fewer sensors per wafer.
Logged
Jan

32BT

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3095
    • Pictures
Sensors, other thoughts
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2006, 05:19:42 am »

Quote
1. I'm not familiar with the process used to manufacture sensors but I always thought a round sensor would allow me to get all the image from a round lens and I could crop any aspect ratio later when processing the RAW file?
2. Since film has a randomness to the silver halide and we are conditioned to seeing that over a lifetime would there be an advantage to a sensor having say 3, 4 and 6 micron photocells arranged in a pseudo random patern like a latin square (sudoku)?
3. One last thought from a beginners point of view... I wish Digital SLRs had a user interface like a modern aircraft's FMS. A screen with line select keys on each side and an enter button, quick easy and intuitive.
4. One more last thought since I'm new at this, an industry standard for displaying histograms in stops (cameras and software), the audio industry always displays amplitude vs. frequency in octaves.
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=73580\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The "randomness" is more in the spatial position (3 dimensionally!) than in size differences. Putting different sized pixels in a pseudo random, but square pattern, will still look mechanical unfortunately.

But more importantly, you're referring to a reproduction medium. The digital camera is an input device. You may want to think of it as an intermediate between a real scene and reproduction. It catches the light. And generally you want to catch as much of it as possible, and you want to postpone reproduction decisions as far as possible in the workflow. That's why most people shoot RAW, which is currently the most genuine light representation as you can get from a digital sensor.

A different histogram representation is what we all want. Problem is that the captured data is in linear space and the result will significantly change depending on the reproduction settings. because of the reproduction settings, any relation with stops is broken.

But a linear space raw data histogram (redistributed over stops for perceptual uniformity), can provide one very important piece of information in digital photography: knowing how much latitude you have before clipping the raw data.

So why don't we have that yet? Because this is largely an academic issue. If you ask photographers what they would prefer:
(1) more dynamic range, or
(2) a better clipping indication
then I would say that 90% prefers more dynamic range. Most of the time you will be more interested in where middle gray resides than whether you can shoot to the right some more to eliminate some arcane noise issue...

(that's not to say of course that a raw data histogram should not be a simple user interface choice, especially on the higher end cameras).
Logged
Regards,
~ O ~
If you can stomach it: pictures

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
Sensors, other thoughts
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2006, 05:20:59 am »

Quote
No, the wafers are circular [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=73603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So they are. What would I do without someone to correct my mistakes   .

That 50mm wafer seems an ideal size for a circular sensor.
Logged

marcmccalmont

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1780
Sensors, other thoughts
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2006, 03:45:20 pm »

A quick explination of the user interface on an aircrafts FMS (Flight Management System) Imagine the back of your camera had a 4" screen and down both sides were 6 or so buttons. Each button corresponds to a line on the screen either left or right. Say the main menu had Aperature, Shutter speed, ISO, White balance etc. I want to change the ISO quickly so press the button next to ISO and you get a new menu with ISO settings, next press the button next to the line labled ISO 400 then press the shutter release to enter and in a second or less you changed the ISO setting. The screen could contain the image and the menu superimposed on it (and my industry standard histogram).

Just a fresh look from a pilots point of view, seems most DSLRs evolved from modern film SLRs which evolved from manual SLR's so I understand where it all came from but some thinking out of the box might be good.

Marc
Logged
Marc McCalmont

jani

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1624
    • Øyet
Sensors, other thoughts
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2006, 04:42:19 pm »

Quote
A quick explination of the user interface on an aircrafts FMS (Flight Management System) Imagine the back of your camera had a 4" screen and down both sides were 6 or so buttons. Each button corresponds to a line on the screen either left or right. Say the main menu had Aperature, Shutter speed, ISO, White balance etc. I want to change the ISO quickly so press the button next to ISO and you get a new menu with ISO settings, next press the button next to the line labled ISO 400 then press the shutter release to enter and in a second or less you changed the ISO setting. The screen could contain the image and the menu superimposed on it (and my industry standard histogram).
Aha!

Just like modern ATMs, then. Thanks for clearing it up!
Logged
Jan

Andrew Teakle

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 90
    • http://www.andrewteakle.com
Sensors, other thoughts
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2006, 06:42:14 pm »

Quote
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=73683\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Marc,

Lovely shot of my home city. I can't place the perspective. From which direction are you flying in? Very evocative.  

I have no experience with these, but I understand the Phase One MF backs have an interface similar to what you're describing. Michael and others would be able to clarify.

I've often thought square sensors the maximum size that the image circle would allow would be ideal. The aspect ratio (including horiz or vert) could be selected prior to the shot if desired, but the whole image would be present in the RAW file.

Good thoughts.  

Andrew
Logged
Andrew

marcmccalmont

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1780
Sensors, other thoughts
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2006, 08:33:53 pm »

Andrew
It is heading south at 39,000' about 30 minutes prior to landing so about 250 nautical miles north of Brisbane. I'm guessing around Richmond? we land at about 7:00 am so shot was taken at around 6:30 am, facing inland to the west. Do you know the name of the river and valley? Aviation charts have almost no geographical detail tried to find a map online with the rivers name but no luck. The good news is it is a great perspective the bad news is it is through 1" thick laminated glass, the worst optics in the world and with the vibration of 4 turbofans and mother nature.
Marc
« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 08:47:06 pm by marcmccalmont »
Logged
Marc McCalmont

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
Sensors, other thoughts
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2006, 08:48:28 pm »

Quote
Imagine the back of your camera had a 4" screen and down both sides were 6 or so buttons. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=73683\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Imagine your nose accidentally pressing one of those button as you bring your eye to the viewfinder and press your face against the camera back.  
Logged

Olivier_G

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 34
Sensors, other thoughts
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2006, 06:05:23 pm »

Quote
Imagine the back of your camera had a 4" screen and down both sides were 6 or so buttons. Each button corresponds to a line on the screen either left or right. Say the main menu had Aperature, Shutter speed, ISO, White balance etc. I want to change the ISO quickly so press the button next to ISO and you get a new menu with ISO settings, next press the button next to the line labled ISO 400 then press the shutter release to enter and in a second or less you changed the ISO setting. The screen could contain the image and the menu superimposed on it (and my industry standard histogram).
Interesting...

A bit like this new NV line from Samsung?
 
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
Sensors, other thoughts
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2006, 11:34:36 pm »

Very appropriate for non-viewfinder cameras I'd think. The natural position of a DSLR when slung around one's neck seems to lend itself to adjustments from above. That is, a separate LCD on top of the body for frequently used adjustments such as ISO, shutter speed and aperture.
Logged

marcmccalmont

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1780
Sensors, other thoughts
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2006, 09:54:35 pm »

Ray
Hand holding the camera (90% of the time) I like the information on the top but when on a tripod up at eye height I find the top controls and display frustrating. Oh well nothings perfect. I would think at some point in the future hi res and bright displays will do away with the optical viewfinder, prism and mirror on pro level cameras. An ATM type interface might make sense then. BTW my nose has not yet hit any of the buttons down the left side of my 5d just left smears on the screen!
Marc
Logged
Marc McCalmont
Pages: [1]   Go Up