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Author Topic: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux  (Read 2799 times)

Brad P

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GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« on: May 19, 2017, 02:43:27 AM »

OK, OK.  Part 1000-something for those following the saga.  If you have used the GFX and/or X1D, your comments in particular are welcome.  I rented the GFX, the 63 and 120 a few weeks ago. My post here is not so much about the GFX as about what I am finding with my version of the X1D in contrast.  Just shot sunset shots with the X1D and that experience may be the final straw for me. I'll sleep on it a few days and keep testing to be sure.  The camera physically is a true work of art.   I want to love it.  I really do.  But using it so far leaves me wanting. 

Bottom line, I have the feeling that the X1D (and Phocus, as an aside) would be fantastic with studio lighting but can suffer outdoors in landscape or street use.  Further, I worry a bit that Hassleblad may not have the same full attention to support X1D owners re firmware updates, supplies and lens roll out as their Fuji or future competitors may.  Here are a few major issues for me that I am running into shooting the X1D.  Suggestions/comments welcomed.  Hopefully I have missed obvious adjustments and will eat some tasty crow. 

1. Maximum shutter speed vs minimum ISO is 2000:1/100.  The X1D has only a mechanical shutter, and I am unaware of any electronic shutter firmware update promises.   Practical landscape consequences, for example, you cannot take pictures of the setting sun without stopping down to at least F16 and still correcting a lot in Photoshop.  Advantage, Fuji GFX or just about any contemporary premium FF camera. 

     UPDATE  5/22/17:   This point is not a super bad problem and should be retained, but moved further down the list.  The GFX has an EFCS which should gain a stop or two and that helps.  One should stop down even more and use exposure bracketing or ND filters to resolve the sun's orb and highlight details around it.  Bright lights, same thing. 

2.  Even with today's updated firmware, the X1D seems still to have bugs, or at least my particular camera does.  When trying to adjust the aperture or shutter speed via the LCD, for example, the camera occasionally freezes and flips back to the prior screen without being able to make the adjustment.  I simply turn the camera off and back on and it fixes the problem.  A nuisance, but it occurs several times a day and isn't confidence inspiring.   I don't know whether this is the firmware or my particular camera.  Are others having this problem?

    UPDATE:  These bugs are an issue with the camera as of today.  It is not perfect and one has to have confidence the issues can and will be resolved through firmware updates.  I'd add they pop up only occasionally when shooting in my camera and are not crippling.  A 10 second or so reboot has solved all of my problems with bugs.

3. If you like bokeh, there are issues at least with the XCD 90mm -- the only lens I have so far.  I'm waitlisted for the 30 and 120 so can't tell about those.   These issues have been well documented so I expected it, but it effectively ruined my favorite image outdoors earlier today (no lights, no sun, just high contrast flowers).   There are many good things about this otherwise excellent lens in lower contrast, all-in-focus environments or against my test charts.  I worry about wide open bokeh in lenses to be released. 

    UPDATE.  This is a real issue with the 90.  It appears to be caused by the facts that the aperture blades are straight and form a visible octagon when one looks down the barrel with the lens wide open.  This design could extend to future lenses, we'll have to wait and see.  However in natural light (where lightbulbs are not in a deep out of focus background) it appears to be manageable in high contrast scenes.  One must take great care reviewing images shot to ensure that no part of the image is overexposed, because any overexposure touching bright bokeh highlights will basically flatten out the colors and tones there and call out the octangular bokeh (we are all spoiled now by Raw Developer highlight recovery sliders - you can't rely on that to save a picture from overexposed octagons and simply need to err toward underexposure in deep out of focus rearward bokeh shots).  Actually, if you follow this, the straight blades introduce a pleasing Monet-like feel.  For shooting with bright lights in the background, this will likely be a composition issue you will have to keep in mind as depending on the shot, the lights will turn octangular.

4. There is no histogram or highlight blinkies available in the X1D's EVF or in Live View when composing that I have found.  I may have missed an obvious adjustment but have double checked and reread the manual.  If this is right, it makes ETTR difficult.  For landscape use this is almost unacceptable in today's Live View camera world and forces exposure bracketing, and that's even an wholly unreliable blunt tool if one hopes to reliably have a file with the whole dynamic range or manage mechanical wear. Is there an update coming?

    UPDATE.  If you are an ETTR person, you want highlight blinkies.  With the X1D at its firmware state today, one has to review shots just taken to make sure the image isn't overexposed before leaving the scene or otherwise be very safe erring on the side of underexposure (and then even taking a chance).  This plays into the octagon issue above, so for me it will force a recheck of images shot against the histogram that is available in review mode.  I contacted someone at Hasselblad about this and they are working on a firmware update to install blinkies (and seem optimistic that it can be done), though timing of that seems uncertain.

5.  Once the X1D is activated, there appears to be no way to turn on live view except for halfway depressing the shutter button or using the EVF.  My particular shutter button is quite trigger happy.  Wasteful timewise and in shutter wear if you use Live View to set up. 

    UPDATE.  H is aware of the issue and is working on a firmware update.  Hopefully coming soon.   

6.  Hasselblad advertises the files as something like "14-bit dynamic range, 16-bit color".  Check with their website on the words.  Fuji's GFX is advertised basically as operating in 14 bits, as all premium camera files do (P1 may have something more).  I've stretched both the GFX and X1D files out in post in LR, PS, and several plugins and personally see no difference.  Some have attributed this to marketing hype as I'm inclined to do without numbers, graphs and data showing something to the contrary. 

     UPDATE.   There still are no convincing numbers, graphs or data showing anything to the contrary that I have seen, even in another thoughtful post here on LuLa.  Only speculation that the camera bakes in some adjustments to 14 bit data in its hardware that could improve what the sensor captures. I imagine that baking in process, if this is right, and I am speculating on this, would better be done in post on a computer.

I hope I am completely wrong about all my observations here with the X1D or that firmware enhancements are certain to come.  And hopefully lenses to come won't have the same wide open problem that the 90 has.   This machine physically is a work of art.   But for my work and my particular copy anyway, I may need to move on. My first thoughts for a substitute, as a photographer that doesn't want a studio, are back to the GFX. 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 03:56:54 PM by Brad P »
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Joe Towner

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2017, 01:07:49 PM »

So the shutter speed & ISO aren't new or a surprise.  Electronic shutter is not a feature of this sensor on any platform.  The GFX only gains in their FPS going to 1/4000th (since that's the fastest shutter), so 1 stop of light.  I'd rather have that than the 1/125th sync speed on the GFX.
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Paul2660

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2017, 01:20:23 PM »

GFX has ES on this platform. Platform being the 50MP Sony sensor. And EFC
 

Works very well also.

Paul Caldwell
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Paul Caldwell
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Jim Kasson

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2017, 01:49:14 PM »

GFX has ES on this platform. Platform being the 50MP Sony sensor. And EFC
 

Works very well also.



ES scan time is 1/4 second, which limits its usefulness, but is a endless source of special effects.

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/fujifilm-gfx-50s-electronic-shutter-speed/

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/making-lemonade-from-the-gfx-slow-electronic-shutter/



Jim

Christopher

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2017, 02:32:34 PM »

1/4 is still quick enough for almost everything shot from a tripod. Especially for landscapes. I use my IQ3100 exclusively in ES mode when on the tripod and it has a 1s timing. 


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Paul2660

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2017, 02:48:47 PM »

1/4 is still quick enough for almost everything shot from a tripod. Especially for landscapes. I use my IQ3100 exclusively in ES mode when on the tripod and it has a 1s timing. 


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Yes can't hand hold it but it's much faster than the ES on the IQ100. Neither version has caused me any problems in landscape work on fact on the IQ100 ES is pretty much all I use now since I am always on a tripod. Great for long glass with both cameras GFX and XF

Paul Caldwell
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2017, 03:23:14 PM »

Hi,

I guess it depends on what you shoot. Small things not moving very fast will not show a lot of distortion, long thing moving fast may be a different case.

Best regards
Erik

Yes can't hand hold it but it's much faster than the ES on the IQ100. Neither version has caused me any problems in landscape work on fact on the IQ100 ES is pretty much all I use now since I am always on a tripod. Great for long glass with both cameras GFX and XF

Paul Caldwell

Jim Kasson

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2017, 03:26:20 PM »

1/4 is still quick enough for almost everything shot from a tripod. Especially for landscapes. I use my IQ3100 exclusively in ES mode when on the tripod and it has a 1s timing. 

You don't see odd-shaped branches and leaves on a windy day?


Jim

Paul2660

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2017, 03:36:40 PM »

At times on a very very windy day, you can see some strange anomalies.  But the vast majority of the images I have taken outdoors, with either camera IQ100 and GFX with EX don't show any issues.  There is always some wind blowing where I shoot at least most of the time. 

But overall the images look very good, surprisingly good consider the time that it takes the IQ to complete a shutter with the ES. 

Cars, or people or other similar objects moving across the frame, will show up with movement issues however. 

Paul Caldwell
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2017, 03:38:21 PM »

Large objects with regular motion…

Best regards
Erik

At times on a very very windy day, you can see some strange anomalies.  But the vast majority of the images I have taken outdoors, with either camera IQ100 and GFX with EX don't show any issues.  There is always some wind blowing where I shoot at least most of the time. 

But overall the images look very good, surprisingly good consider the time that it takes the IQ to complete a shutter with the ES. 

Cars, or people or other similar objects moving across the frame, will show up with movement issues however. 

Paul Caldwell

Paul2660

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2017, 04:00:47 PM »

This image was taken with the IQ100, 35mmLS and ES shutter, shutter speed in the 1/125 to 1/250th range as I recall.  There was quite a bit of wind blowing here especially in the foreground, but the images taken show really no issues with ES and movement.  It takes a good bit of wind IMO and experience with the ES to show up, but as Jim best described it, when you see it you will see a strange anomaly in a tree or branch. However even on a windy they they seem to be the exception not the rule.

Tunnel View Yosemite National Park May 2017 by paul caldwell, on Flickr]

Paul Caldwell
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Joe Towner

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2017, 04:20:49 PM »

GFX has ES on this platform. Platform being the 50MP Sony sensor. And EFC

Damn, I stand corrected.
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Brad P

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2017, 04:23:37 PM »

BTW, anyone contemplating purchasing an X1D or GFX would be well advised to subscribe to Diglloyd, and for the GFX, read Jim Kasson's masterful GFX series in his Last Word blog (quickly, before he charges!).   There is much more useful info there, and I'm just venting my personal frustrations here, some of which are additive.

I'm being advised separately by Lloyd Chambers that my point number 1 ought to be disregarded or at least downplayed, and he's right.  An EFC shutter as in the GFX would at most get a couple extra stops in doing so, and its blinkies would assist in composing those shots (which I use in enfused or exposure blended work).  And I can use an ND filter.  My chief frustration really stems from number 4 (no blinkies/histogram when composing).   

Separately, I've visited every page on the internet today with the words "X1D highlight blinkies Hasselblad" and found a statement of Ming Thein (newly appointed to be H's Chief of Strategy) stating that he's testing the next X1D firmware update, and it should have blinkies.  See about halfway down at https://blog.mingthein.com/2017/03/29/some-big-changes/comment-page-1/.  That may save my X1D from a return flight to NYC.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 08:45:52 PM by Brad P »
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Juanito

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2017, 07:49:11 PM »

My X1D is with Hasselblad right now for repairs (which I've documented in my X1D First Impressions thread). I'm not optimistic on seeing it anytime soon. Anyhow, I did find the operation of the camera to be buggy. Turning the camera on and off to reset it wasn't a frequent occurrence but it wasn't unusual either. I had issues with it being difficult to get it into f3.5 and the shutter dial not responding.  Adjusting LCD brightness was so quirky that I gave up. I didn't know if all this was indicative of my particular camera and its dysfunction or whether it was part of the standard bugginess of this new camera. Seems like it's the latter.

I think it's safe to say that  X1D users are unwitting beta testers.

John

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2017, 09:03:38 PM »

I have posted my experience with and reasoning against getting the X1D on this forum before, so i won't get into that...

i really have to say that i have rarely seen and held a camera that i wanted to like so much....and maybe that is one of the problems with the X1D....it is almost perfect size...it is beautiful....it checks a lot of professional boxes....but i really feel like it was made with the same mindset as for example the leica SL....whereas the GFX50 is almost the opposite: i almost could not believe the way the rear LCD seems to be patched on with the big battery wedged in and.....but yet after working with it for a month now everything is just where it should be...and all these things are there for a reason....because i do want a tillable rear LCD...i do want to adjust my shutter, f-stop and iso manually and analog...the tilt finder attachment is so great and amazing, i probably won't ever be able to have a camera without one...the menu is fine but most importantly i have to get into it a lot less then with my last 100 digital cameras....the size and weight is great, so is battery life, so is the touch screen....and to top it off so are the files....
nothing is perfect and we are never really totally happy....but i honestly haven't been as happy with a camera in a long time...and maybe part of it is that i did not even really give it a chance when  it was announced....

after working with the X1D i felt like hasselblad made a camera not necessarily for professionals...like leicas are these days....and compared to a H6 systems it probably wins most comparisons....size, weight, ease of use, looks, price, IQ,.....and compared to leica it definitely checks a lot of boxes as well....
but leica owners like leicas....and people looking for something like a H6 system will probably stick with that as well.....
and for all the other people (the vast majority of shooters), things like decent AF, price, and most of all basic things we are just used to by now or just don't really want to give up anymore (all the stuff fuji put into the GFX50 that seem "amateur level")....yes...a tilting LCD is just a nice thing to have....

of course hasselblad just does not have the experience with a lot of the consumer grade basics a camera should offer these days....like AF....
i also think that they got a little surprised when fuji came out with a competitor....with the same sensor....the X1D would simply look a lot better if it wasn't for the GFX50....it would be amazing and the only of its kind (i am not counting the pentax)....

we all know that sony support is not the best....and a lot of people like to moan about it for good reason....well i have experienced a lot worse first hand....leica and rolleiflex....nice people, great cameras but paying that much for a premium product  and having to wait months (yes) for repair because they are so backed up and understaffed is not pleasant....add in that my only bad experiences with sony (or canon or nikon) have really only been in frustrating couple of hours trying to get something resolved....but funny enough i actually never had a single repair with any of my cheap, lowly sonys, canons or nikons.....or fujis for that matter....
i am getting to the point....fuji has a 500$/year pro support....that includes the usual cleaning and such as well as loaners and 3 day turnaround....and yes they have 7 day a weeks hotline (where a person answers within minutes) and that is actually free....
the only experience with hasselblad support i have had was H system cameras failing on set and the rental house having another one there....
which reminds me of another camera i used to own....RED...easy for a major production to have a couple of bodies on set in case one fails....different situation for single owner/operator....

hasselblad and phase have the commercial market cornered, the GFX won't make much of a dent there....i think the GFX is more a way to nibble on the DSLR market.....a camera, good enough for all around shooting (in terms of speed and functionality), sturdy enough for most conditions and just enough of a difference in IQ to grab a couple of people looking for certain qualities....all for a price close enough to compete with DSLR...i think the GFX solves this better then the X1D....which in turn might attract more people because....well...lets face it: it does look and feel awesome...

as for sync speed: i did not really realize and wrote the GFX off for lack of fast sync speed....there are so many great and amazing HSS solutions out there now, this really isn't an issue anymore....
also: one of the best things about the sonys is the mount.....the ability to accept almost any lens is HUGE....HUGE....i am not talking about otus or the finest glass....i am talking about 50 year old lenses dirt cheap from eBay with tons of scratches and character....and yes, these old lenses do produce amazing images with the latest and greatest sensors.....the fuji can do this.....it also helps that they are pumping out lenses for that line and one seems to be better then the last.....and affordable......

i am really happy that both these cameras are out....fuji has a firmware coming end of may and knowing fuji it will fix things we did not know needed fixing and maybe even give us a new camera or at least make the continuous focus worth considering.....but the idea that this body will have a 100 mpix sensor coming next year is just crazy.....as much as i have been blown away by sony and what they have been doing, this fuji checks more boxes for my work....
right now i would have a hard time making a wish list improving the GFX....ok: AF (never fast enough) and 4K video....
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Jim Kasson

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2017, 11:40:43 PM »

BTW, anyone contemplating purchasing an X1D or GFX would be well advised to subscribe to Diglloyd, and for the GFX, read Jim Kasson's masterful GFX series in his Last Word blog (quickly, before he charges!).   There is much more useful info there, and I'm just venting my personal frustrations here, some of which are additive.

I can promise you that I will never charge for access to my blog. I am just pleased that I can help people.

Jim

Brad P

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2017, 02:14:59 AM »

Good.  I may need to read it again as I may need to buy into the GFX.  Testing lenses of course as they come in. 

Other readers, I just added an Addendum to my points #1 and 6 in the original post. 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 02:47:43 AM by Brad P »
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hubell

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2017, 09:42:06 AM »

Yes, the GFX can shoot at 1/4000 of a second v. 1/2000 of a second. At least at some apertures, the X1D 90mm lens doesn't shoot pretty bokeh balls. Yes, the X1D doesn't have an articulating LCD screen. Yes, today the X1D doesn't have blinkies. Yes, during the course of a day shooting with the X1D there will be a few weird little freeze ups. If these are deal breakers for anyone, then the X1D is not for you.  On the other hand, the X1D is about half the size of the GFX and, at least for me, is a joy to handle compared to the GFX. And, don't assume that it's all smooth sailing with the  GFX like it's a stroll through Candy Land. Try using magnified Live View to manually focus the X1D and then try it with the GFX. Spend the money for a Digilloyd subscription and read his extended analysis and high res examples of the difficulties achieving accurate focus with the GFX. Now, to me, being able to comfortably hike with the X1D and achieve accurate focus are far more important "features" for my work. YMMMV.
Comparing the X1D with its lenses to the Leica SL with its lenses is just childish hyperbole made for the sake of equating those who buy the X1D with Leica owners as rich dilettantes. If a so-called  "professional photographer" can't produce compelling imagery with the X1D, I think he has bigger issues than his choice of camera. Have a look here to see what is possible with the X1D in the hands of a really talented professional: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH1GHqP3aj0. Looks pretty good to me. In fact, it's way way better than anything I have seen come out of a GFX. Of course, I would never suggest that it's because the X1D is a "professional" camera and the GFX is not. That's just ridiculous.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 02:05:34 PM by hubell »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2017, 11:22:32 AM »

Spend the money for a Digilloyd subscription and read his extended analysis and high res examples of the difficulties achieving accurate focus with the GFX. Now, to me, being able to comfortably hike with the X1D and achieve accurate focus are far more important "features" for my work. YMMMV.

It is possible to accurately focus the GFX manually. It's just not obvious how to do it:

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/manually-focusing-the-fujifilm-gfx-50s/

Jim

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Re: GFX vs X1D, Part Deux
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2017, 11:54:42 AM »

It is possible to accurately focus the GFX manually. It's just not obvious how to do it:

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/manually-focusing-the-fujifilm-gfx-50s/

Jim

As I suggested, anyone actually concerned with the problems with achieving accurate focus with the GFX should carefully examine the analysis and high res examples in Diglloyd's blog. I have no reason to disbelieve what Lloyd's testing demonstrates.
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