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Author Topic: 4k with Canon 5D Mk4 / Huge Files  (Read 750 times)

Chris L

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4k with Canon 5D Mk4 / Huge Files
« on: May 18, 2017, 06:45:09 PM »

I bought it for stills but I am liking the AF during video for special shots. But the files are gigantic because of its inefficient codec, and its bringing my computer to its knees. The Pro Res files from my Ursa Mini are way easier to deal with. I tried recording Pro Res to my BM Video Assist with the Canon but the recorder is only 1080p, I kinda like to shoot in 4K handheld and then stabilize in post and deliver in 1080p. Whats everyone else doing with these 4K files from the Canon?

Im on a 2010 Mac Pro with 32GB Ram, 2 x 2.66 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon, ATI Radeon HD 5770 1024 MB
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kenkenman

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Re: 4k with Canon 5D Mk4 / Huge Files
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2017, 04:49:24 PM »

Are you not liking that it takes up a lot of space on your drive(s) or that your computer can't play back the files?

You could record to one of the recorders that does 4k (Atomos makes some). Or just transcode what you shoot to ProRes.

bcooter

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Re: 4k with Canon 5D Mk4 / Huge Files
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2017, 05:01:05 PM »

Are you not liking that it takes up a lot of space on your drive(s) or that your computer can't play back the files?

You could record to one of the recorders that does 4k (Atomos makes some). Or just transcode what you shoot to ProRes.

I guess I should have just given the short answer, though I don't think the 5d4 will produce 4k from the hdmi connection.

Anyway to the op.

I don't know what you shoot, your workflow, do you grade, your editorial system, how you deliver (what type of conforms).

Anyway, the motion jpeg codec is a good codec as it's like all intra where every frame is a single frame and has a high bit rate of 500 to 600mbs. it's also 4:2:2 and though 8 bit it's deep for 8 bit and Canon color is pretty good out of the box.  The downside is it's produces large files, needs large storage.

Compared to h264 and avchd (mpg4) cameras, like the sony A7sII which has 8 bit  4:2:0 and 100 mbs, there is a big difference when grading and I've found the mjpeg format grades pretty well.

In regards how to speed up your editing with the mjpeg codec, you're better off transcoding to prores, (if that is your system's native codec) as it puts much less strain on your system and given you only have 1 gig of vram in your system.

You can transcode through many software suites and that's a drag except your editorial suite is going to transcode anyway, whether you do it after the edit or in the background during the edit.

If you want prores out of the camera, it's black magic, or with a license Arri or Sony F5 but of course these cameras don't autofocus.   Most film makers don't like autofocus but I believe a lot of that is the cameras.

In my experience the only cameras I've used that track in motion is the Canons . . . d70/80, 1dxII, Mark IV, c300II with their dual pixel pdaf systems.

In regards to prores, Apple has discontinued support QT/prores on windows/pc's and I assume because so many editors moved from fcp7 to premier rather than fcpX and if your doing Premier, a Dell or HP Box is much more useable than the 2010 Apple Flower Vase.   

Apple kind of lives by the rule of if you can't beat them, ban them.

In fact there was rumors that Apple would kill off Quicktime at least a useable update of QT7 Pro, since the latest update was for snow leopard, though I use it all the way through Yosemite and they say it will run in Sierra except Apple no longer offers a pro key to unlock 7 to 7 pro.

I firmly believe the only reason Apple continued with prores is their are so many companies with a prores workflow that Apple would receive a lot of heat if they killed it.

Sorry to go off topic, but Apple does what they want, the moment they want.    Buy a new powerbook pro and try to find a way to connect a fw800 drive on it.

So if you go prores as a standard for editing, keep an older computer nearby with some empty drives that work with your system so you can copy data over and find someone with a QT7 Pro registration key.

IMO

BC
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Chris L

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Re: 4k with Canon 5D Mk4 / Huge Files
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2017, 05:23:49 PM »

Are you not liking that it takes up a lot of space on your drive(s) or that your computer can't play back the files?

You could record to one of the recorders that does 4k (Atomos makes some). Or just transcode what you shoot to ProRes.

Sorry, i should have said, I am not liking that my computer cant playback the files smoothly.
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Chris L

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Re: 4k with Canon 5D Mk4 / Huge Files
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2017, 05:26:49 PM »

I guess I should have just given the short answer, though I don't think the 5d4 will produce 4k from the hdmi connection.

Anyway to the op.

I don't know what you shoot, your workflow, do you grade, your editorial system, how you deliver (what type of conforms).

Anyway, the motion jpeg codec is a good codec as it's like all intra where every frame is a single frame and has a high bit rate of 500 to 600mbs. it's also 4:2:2 and though 8 bit it's deep for 8 bit and Canon color is pretty good out of the box.  The downside is it's produces large files, needs large storage.

Compared to h264 and avchd (mpg4) cameras, like the sony A7sII which has 8 bit  4:2:0 and 100 mbs, there is a big difference when grading and I've found the mjpeg format grades pretty well.

In regards how to speed up your editing with the mjpeg codec, you're better off transcoding to prores, (if that is your system's native codec) as it puts much less strain on your system and given you only have 1 gig of vram in your system.

You can transcode through many software suites and that's a drag except your editorial suite is going to transcode anyway, whether you do it after the edit or in the background during the edit.

If you want prores out of the camera, it's black magic, or with a license Arri or Sony F5 but of course these cameras don't autofocus.   Most film makers don't like autofocus but I believe a lot of that is the cameras.

In my experience the only cameras I've used that track in motion is the Canons . . . d70/80, 1dxII, Mark IV, c300II with their dual pixel pdaf systems.

In regards to prores, Apple has discontinued support QT/prores on windows/pc's and I assume because so many editors moved from fcp7 to premier rather than fcpX and if your doing Premier, a Dell or HP Box is much more useable than the 2010 Apple Flower Vase.   

Apple kind of lives by the rule of if you can't beat them, ban them.

In fact there was rumors that Apple would kill off Quicktime at least a useable update of QT7 Pro, since the latest update was for snow leopard, though I use it all the way through Yosemite and they say it will run in Sierra except Apple no longer offers a pro key to unlock 7 to 7 pro.

I firmly believe the only reason Apple continued with prores is their are so many companies with a prores workflow that Apple would receive a lot of heat if they killed it.

Sorry to go off topic, but Apple does what they want, the moment they want.    Buy a new powerbook pro and try to find a way to connect a fw800 drive on it.

So if you go prores as a standard for editing, keep an older computer nearby with some empty drives that work with your system so you can copy data over and find someone with a QT7 Pro registration key.

IMO

BC

Thats good to hear that at least the file format is a good one. And I already transcode to Pro Res while importing into FCPx. I guess I need to step up my Graphics card?
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kenkenman

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Re: 4k with Canon 5D Mk4 / Huge Files
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2017, 11:24:53 PM »

I guess I should have just given the short answer, though I don't think the 5d4 will produce 4k from the hdmi connection.

BC

D'oh. Good point. Didn't think of that.

Chris L

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Re: 4k with Canon 5D Mk4 / Huge Files
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2017, 03:30:56 PM »

I have been transcoding the files to Pro Res automatically in FCPX but my machine still struggles without the huge 4k files. With these specs ( Im on a 2010 Mac Pro with 32GB Ram, 2 x 2.66 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon, ATI Radeon HD 5770 1024 MB ), does anybody have a reco for a new graphics card I should get?
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Chris Sanderson

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Re: 4k with Canon 5D Mk4 / Huge Files
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2017, 04:40:58 PM »

No, not really. I upgraded a similar machine for the same reason with an Nvidia Quadro 4000 but still had problems with 4K. The drive bandwidth delivery of Thunderbolt makes the big difference IMO. If you need to stay with your machine, I would automatically work in Proxy mode with 1080 or 720 and then output a master as necessary from the 4K. FCP X & Compressor makes that sort of workflow really simple.
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Christopher Sanderson
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bcooter

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Re: 4k with Canon 5D Mk4 / Huge Files
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2017, 05:24:39 PM »

No, not really. I upgraded a similar machine for the same reason with an Nvidia Quadro 4000 but still had problems with 4K. The drive bandwidth delivery of Thunderbolt makes the big difference IMO. If you need to stay with your machine, I would automatically work in Proxy mode with 1080 or 720 and then output a master as necessary from the 4K. FCP X & Compressor makes that sort of workflow really simple.

If you want to stay with a 5,1 mac I would suggest calling these people in the U.S. https://ibuildmacs.com, or in europe (based in the UK) https://create.pro/  or some service that knows how to configure a machine for 4k video and they can add usb 3 cards and the appropriate

If your starting fresh, either from Apple's trashcan, or a last build 5,1 you'll be $5,000 to $10,000 for a machine fast enough to professionally work 4k and if your running ssds as a boot drive, Sierra is made for SSD compatibility.  (at least that's what I've been told).

As Chris says, working in proxy in fcp X is the answer, though if your round tripping and grading in Resolve it burns through a lot of vram even in 2k, 4k it get's serious.


IMO

BC






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Morgan_Moore

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Re: 4k with Canon 5D Mk4 / Huge Files
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2017, 05:54:44 AM »

Id place the files into resolve and trancode them to proRes.

This may take all night but who cares.. you will be asleep while it is happening.

You could even transcode to 1080 and just go back to your original files if you have a need to pan/scan/reframe a particular shot or two.

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HywelPhillips

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Re: 4k with Canon 5D Mk4 / Huge Files
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2017, 04:35:43 PM »

I always edit in Proxy in FCP-X then output from the originals. It's seamless and for me at least just works. As Sam says, you can always sleep while it is doing it.

The reason I prefer this to doing a direct transcode to ProRes and using that as my master is that you always go back to the first generation to output. This isn't so important for MJEPG but is killer for RED footage which can be graded non-destructively and the new grade pulled in automatically by FCP-X.

The transcoded footage is 1/2 the pixel dimension (so 4K -> 1080p) and also in ProRes LT, which makes life easier on the data rates.

For other stuff like H264 from Panasonic GH4 etc. I also transcode to edit then export from the original. I figure always doing an output from a first generation file means I always start with the maximum possible information, i.e. what the camera actually recorded, not something which has already been decoded and re-encoded in a second lossy codec. Not that I expect it'll make much difference, but why lose a generation when you don't have to?

On my 5,1 Mac I can play back 4K RED footage and GH4 H264 footage smoothly so long as the computer isn't doing much else and so long as there's not much in the way of layers or effects. But I do have a GTX980 4096 MB card. It just about goes on my iMac too, but not so much on a MacBook Pro. Some of that may be down to drive speeds too but the great thing about transcoding to Proxy is that the files are often small enough to sit on the SSD for editing. So I get the full speed of the system when editing, with the master files laid off on a slower "spinning rust" external drive, to be referred back to with a click of the mouse come export time.

So I'd definitely play around with proxies for editing.

Cheers, Hywel
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