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Author Topic: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?  (Read 3581 times)

kers

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2017, 12:49:59 PM »

Interesting. Have you measured the L* value of the deepest Black you achieved on that paper? If so what was it ?

I cannot measure it, but when i compare it with my analogue prints it is far deeper black.
Not as black as black velvet but very good.
As you might know the Z3100 is famous for its neutral BW prints.

But the point was about protecting the paper.
Every touch you see a mark.
If you sell it it has to have some protection from dust and liquid for that reason.

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Pieter Kers
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2017, 01:15:19 PM »

I cannot measure it, but when i compare it with my analogue prints it is far deeper black.
................

This coheres with my experience comparing - and measuring - B&W prints produced with the latest generation of Epson and Canon printers versus the darkroom prints I have from the 1950s to 1970s. I do know of HPs reputation for B&W but haven't had access to output I could scientifically compare, hence my question. Thanks for getting back on it.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Rob Reiter

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2017, 07:18:46 PM »

I agree with most of this, except that the difference of minimum L* (maximum Black) between PK/MK papers is more than a "smidgen" - we're talking moving from a range of L*2~3 for the PK papers to L*13~16 for the matte papers. As a result, it's much easier to bring out detail in the deep quartertones using PK papers, but that said, depending on the photo, some of the matte papers suit the images beautifully.

Well, instead of a "smidgen" deeper black, maybe I should have said a "tad" deeper black?

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Mark D Segal

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2017, 07:58:04 PM »

Well, instead of a "smidgen" deeper black, maybe I should have said a "tad" deeper black?

"Several tads"!  :-)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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keithcooper

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2017, 05:47:56 AM »

It's an interesting question and one I'm regularly asked after printer/paper reviews...

My simple answer is that it looks really good for -some- of my photos.

Matt paper/ink performance has definitely improved over the last few years, but I still find that personal preference and image content make a lot of the decisions for me. Some images just look flat and dull on matte paper and others look too harsh on lustre/gloss.

I'm lucky enough to have a pretty big collection of papers after all my reviews, but still come back to a few types and styles. However, given my iPF8300 was scrapped the other day, I'll have to look at this again some time ;-)

More importantly, I have a basic assumption that there is not any automatic "best" paper for an image. Indeed, once I find a good one I like for an image, the 'numbers' are essentially irrelevant (heresy to some I know ;-)  )

Even my B&W, which I've tended to prefer on matte papers has images that simply look better (IMHO obviously) on lustre finish papers.  In terms of commercial prints, I'll happily go along with the client's wishes (if they have any).

Epson UK are finally sending me a P5000 for an extended test (yay!) so as well as a detailed review, I'm looking to do a lot more exploration of making prints - The loss of my 8300 means I need to do some serious thinking about what the business needs.

(Oh, and HP - can we have a new big printer to stir things up. The 3200 was good when I tested it, but I'm simply not buying a printer I reviewed in 2009 ;-)

JimGoshorn

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2017, 10:54:58 AM »

There is a new matte paper produced by Red River that is supposed to be able to give darker blacks:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/05/24/red-river-papers-new-palo-duro-etching-paper
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2017, 11:35:59 AM »

...............
More importantly, I have a basic assumption that there is not any automatic "best" paper for an image. Indeed, once I find a good one I like for an image, the 'numbers' are essentially irrelevant (heresy to some I know ;-)  )

............

I agree.

The numbers can provide very useful guidance for some important factors, but in the final analysis this is art and taste is key. Both are valid in their own ways.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Mark D Segal

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2017, 11:36:34 AM »

There is a new matte paper produced by Red River that is supposed to be able to give darker blacks:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/05/24/red-river-papers-new-palo-duro-etching-paper

Darker than what?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Eric Brody

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2017, 03:23:48 PM »

I am one of those who uses mostly matte paper because I like the often "painterly" (sorry, I don't like the word either, it's the best choice to describe what I mean) look it gives for both color and monochrome images. Sometimes I prefer glossy. Looking at the blacks as "inferior" on matter paper is meaningful only if set up side by side with glossy paper. If there's any "rule" for me it is that images with large areas of black, e.g. sea stack rocks backlighted, seem to look better on glossy paper. It would be soooo nice if Epson printers made glossy-matte switching easier, less time and ink wasting. I love my 3880 but would likely get a Canon if only QTR were supported. Roy Harrington, if you're reading this...
Eric
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rasworth

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2017, 06:49:30 PM »

I've followed this thread out of curiosity, haven't printed on matte with my 3880 for a long time.  Went to the Red River website and downloaded the 3880 profile for their new Palo Duro Etching paper.  ColorThink shows the black point, using mk ink, to be L=2, which I found amazing.

The Red River description of the paper states it gains its increased black density using a blocking barrier between the ink receptive coat and the underlying base.  So when does a paper quit being a matte and instead becomes a lustre?  Non-encapsulated mk ink depends upon soaking into the base for attachment, how well does it stick to this new stuff?  And are there any other surface effects normally associated with pigment inks sitting in/on a top layer?

Anybody tried this miracle matte paper?

Richard Southworth
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2017, 08:09:21 PM »

I've followed this thread out of curiosity, haven't printed on matte with my 3880 for a long time.  Went to the Red River website and downloaded the 3880 profile for their new Palo Duro Etching paper.  ColorThink shows the black point, using mk ink, to be L=2, which I found amazing.

The Red River description of the paper states it gains its increased black density using a blocking barrier between the ink receptive coat and the underlying base.  So when does a paper quit being a matte and instead becomes a lustre?  Non-encapsulated mk ink depends upon soaking into the base for attachment, how well does it stick to this new stuff?  And are there any other surface effects normally associated with pigment inks sitting in/on a top layer?

Anybody tried this miracle matte paper?

Richard Southworth

Whether it's "miracle" or not remains to be properly tested. The L*2 reading from the profile may be significant, but it is not determinative. The actual print of a Black patch (L*0 in the reference file) needs to be measured to see what the effective Black point is. 
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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rasworth

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2017, 09:22:45 AM »

Mark,

I'm not claiming miracle status, or anything else, for the RR offering.  Mainly asking if anybody has tried it, and given RR's description how can it be classified as a "matte" paper.  Regardless of the 0-0-0 patch measurement it's still quite surprising to find its black point given as L=2.

Richard Southworth
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2017, 10:00:00 AM »

I agree, it is surprising, and exactly the reason why it needs to be tested from a print. I understand your purpose here, no issue.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2017, 11:18:16 AM »

I agree, it is surprising, and exactly the reason why it needs to be tested from a print. I understand your purpose here, no issue.
I'll give it a test.  Red River are closed today for Memorial Day (US Holiday) so I'm unsure about the on-line ordering and they wouldn't ship it today anyway.  I'll compare it to William Turner, a textured matte paper by Hahnemuhle, that I do a fair amount of printing on.  William Turner has a nice bright finish without any OBAs and I've done so repro work for a local watercolorist who does mostly abstracts.  From the description on the RR website, this may not be as textured as William Turner but we'll see.  The black point is less important than how colors are rendered with the paper.  Time permitting (we have a wedding in London at the end of June and are going to Ireland afterwards), I'll try to report back as soon as I receive the paper.

Alan
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JimGoshorn

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2017, 11:39:17 AM »

Darker than what?
From the article:
"The textured matte paper is said to offer deeper blacks than most traditional matte papers thanks to a special barrier coat that is placed between the paper base and the inkjet receiving layer."

So that seems to imply that some D-Max is lost when the ink is absorbed into the substrate. They do say most traditional matte papers so that covers their claims
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rasworth

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2017, 01:38:49 PM »

Mk ink loses black density as it is absorbed into the substrate, but the absorption is required to keep the non-encapsulated pigment particles in place.  I look forward to Alan's report on  the RR paper, and whether or not it can be easily smudged after drying.

Richard Southworth
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2017, 01:43:28 PM »

From the article:
"The textured matte paper is said to offer deeper blacks than most traditional matte papers thanks to a special barrier coat that is placed between the paper base and the inkjet receiving layer."

So that seems to imply that some D-Max is lost when the ink is absorbed into the substrate. They do say most traditional matte papers so that covers their claims

OK, that clarifies the context. Thanks.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

na goodman

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2017, 04:46:14 PM »

I'll give it a test.  Red River are closed today for Memorial Day (US Holiday) so I'm unsure about the on-line ordering and they wouldn't ship it today anyway.  I'll compare it to William Turner, a textured matte paper by Hahnemuhle, that I do a fair amount of printing on.  William Turner has a nice bright finish without any OBAs and I've done so repro work for a local watercolorist who does mostly abstracts.  From the description on the RR website, this may not be as textured as William Turner but we'll see.  The black point is less important than how colors are rendered with the paper.  Time permitting (we have a wedding in London at the end of June and are going to Ireland afterwards), I'll try to report back as soon as I receive the paper.

Alan

Thanks Alan for offering to try this paper and report back. I use a fair amount of German Etching so it will be interesting to see what you find.
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Paul Roark

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2017, 04:47:23 PM »

The black point I show in my QTR linearization tab for the Red River Palo Duro Satin is Lab L = 4.7, using the MIS Associates (www.inksupply.com) "K4" PK (STS Inks wj1122).  This PK is not a particularly good PK for maximum black in that it does not have a high gloss coating.  (But it also does not bronze even without a coating.)  I have not tested the paper with MK, but I'd be surprised if this or any satin paper works well with MK.

Paul
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JimGoshorn

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Re: Why Print using Mat Inks and Paper?
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2017, 07:50:55 PM »

Paul,

If you are replying to my previous posts, the paper I was referring to was Palo Duro Etching not Satin. It would be interesting to find out what the readings for the Etching actually are (or is it just marketing hype).
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