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Author Topic: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?  (Read 2129 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2017, 08:16:09 AM »

Hi,

Possible image circle can be limited by the mount, but also by available shutters. It is quite feasible that the camera would be larger to accommodate a 54x40 mm sensor.

It may be possible to fit the larger sensor within the GFX mount, but that would be another system. That is essentially what Sony has made with the e-mount. The E-mount was initially APS-C, but it has developed into the FE-lens line, covering 24x36. But, FE-lens is a new system quite separate from the original NEX.

Best regards
Erik

Paul2660

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2017, 08:40:54 AM »

I think the question is 'can Fuji make a camera with a 54x42mm sensor and the GFX mount?'.

Fuji answered this question back during the announcement press conference.

The GFX mount will not accomidate a larger sensor without a visible crop and all current lenses are designed around the smaller sensor size for IC. This would also mean a visible crop on the larger sensor.

I figure you will see 100mp when Sony decides to produce that particular sensor in the 44 x33 size.

Will Fuji come out with 2 cameras one with the 44x33 and the other with the larger I doubt that will happen but anything is possible.

Paul Caldwell

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BJL

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I can not quite understand the question, and answers. Why would the GFX MOUNT not accommodate lenses which would cover 56x40mm sensor?
I agree that the original question is a bit ambiguous, or has perhaps been misinterpreted.  I rephrased the subject line to reflect two questions of possible interest:
1) Can the Fujiifilm G mount for the GFX accommodate lenses that cover a larger format like 52x40mm? (the current largest sensor format)

2) Can some or all of the lenses made for the 44x33 format GFX cover these larger formats without problems like vignetting or poor optical correction beyond the 55mm diameter of the image circle of the 44x33mm sensor?


On #1, I am skeptical that the throat is wide enough to avoid vignetting with those larger formats.  A rough guideline is that for an idealized perfectly telecentric lens (exit pupil at infinity) the lens mount opening must have a diameter of at least
    (sensor diagonal) plus (flange focal distance)/(minimum aperture ratio)
For the G mount, the sensor diagonal is 55mm, the flange focal distance is 26.7mm and the minimum aperture ratio so far is f/2, setting a minimum of about 55mm + 12.4mm = 62.4mm.

If the larger Sony sensor, 54x40mm is used, the diagonal size increases by 12mm to 67mm (and for "645" film format it increases by 15mm to 70mm).
I doubt that the G mount has that extra 12mm of diameter, which would add bulk and weight while adding no value to the 44x33 format.  But does anyone have the specs for G mount?


On #2 I have already commented, but to update briefly: the basic optical designs for lenses at long enough focal lengths, say 90mm and up, have a good chance of producing a large enough image circle, but some potential hazards are
- the narrowness of the optical path at the rear of the lens due to a possibly too narrow lens mount diameter,
- design optimization to minimize aberrations over the intended 55mm diameter with the trade-off of poor performance outside that circle, and
- internal rectangular anti-flare baffles which block all light that does not contribute to the intended 44x33mm image.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 09:54:56 PM by BJL »
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landscapephoto

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2017, 05:24:08 PM »

I figure you will see 100mp when Sony decides to produce that particular sensor in the 44 x33 size.

Nest year, 2018. IMX 461, back illuminated. Page 1 of this document from Sony semiconductors:
http://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/news/detail/170301.pdf
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uaiomex

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2017, 07:55:23 PM »

I'd settle for a Sony CMOS 48x36 sensor. This is my very personal minimum required sensor size to consider it as a MF sensor.
I'm sure this sensor would have no problems working fine inside the current GFX size and mount.
Hope remains!
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 08:00:39 PM by uaiomex »
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hubell

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2017, 08:05:18 PM »

I'd settle for a Sony CMOS 48x36 sensor. This is my very personal minimum required sensor size to consider it as a MF sensor.
I'm sure this sensor would have no problems working fine inside the current GFX size and mount.
Hope remains!

As the expression goes, "Hope is not a strategy."
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uaiomex

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2017, 10:12:07 PM »

As the expression goes, "Hope is not a strategy."

If you only knew! 😄
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Lust4Life

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2017, 08:56:41 AM »

SIDE NOTE:  FYI - I Talked with Fuji techs yesterday and confirmed, the RAW files are only 14 bits deep!
For those where this matters, like myself, this will not cut it for me.

Christopher

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2017, 09:47:44 AM »

SIDE NOTE:  FYI - I Talked with Fuji techs yesterday and confirmed, the RAW files are only 14 bits deep!
For those where this matters, like myself, this will not cut it for me.

And ? There is no 50Mp camera which has more than 14bit... so if you need 16bit only the 100Mp backs from phase and Hassi are an option.


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Jim Kasson

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2017, 11:46:34 AM »

SIDE NOTE:  FYI - I Talked with Fuji techs yesterday and confirmed, the RAW files are only 14 bits deep!
For those where this matters, like myself, this will not cut it for me.

I own a GFX. I've spent a lot of time looking at the GFX files. Adding more precision would only digitize the read noise and low signal photon noise more precisely, even at base ISO.

Jim

Doug Peterson

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2017, 11:55:52 AM »

I own a GFX. I've spent a lot of time looking at the GFX files. Adding more precision would only digitize the read noise and low signal photon noise more precisely, even at base ISO.

Jim

Spending a few weeks with an IQ3 100mp in 16 bit mode might change your mind on that :).

Joe Towner

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2017, 12:21:02 PM »

Spending a few weeks with an IQ3 100mp in 16 bit mode might change your mind on that :).

It'd also eat up a couple terabytes of space and cause a horribly expensive case of GAS.  ;D
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2017, 01:00:40 PM »

Spending a few weeks with an IQ3 100mp in 16 bit mode might change your mind on that :).

What's the IQ3 RN at base ISO in DN's or counts?

Jim
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 01:08:09 PM by Jim Kasson »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2017, 02:47:57 PM »

Hi Doug,

What is difference between an IQ 380 in 16 bit mode and an IQ 3100MP in 16 bit mode?

Add on question, in what case would it matter?

Best regards
Erik



Spending a few weeks with an IQ3 100mp in 16 bit mode might change your mind on that :).

nemtom

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Re: A general comment…
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2017, 09:22:00 PM »

[...]So, next year we will probably see 100 MP on 44x33, and I would guess pricing will be close to what we have now. [...]

There is one important aspect to consider. The current 50MP CMOS is a pretty old model, at the end of its life-cycle. That means that Sony is trying to sweep out of that from the storage room, so they can fill that in with some new fresh 100MP. Therefore the price of the current 50MP crop sensor might be pretty low.
If I would want to figure out the future price of the upcoming sensor (and the camera/back it is built in), I would look at the first generation devices' (IQ250, H5Dc, etc)  price at introduction.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 09:26:48 PM by nemtom »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: A general comment…
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2017, 02:24:43 AM »

Hi,

The sensor is the same in the IQ250 and H5Dc, but it seems that P1 and Hasselblad makes a hefty surcharge on the MFDB model. The CFV 50c back was priced well under H version, although costs were obviously the same.

I would guess that sensor cost may be in the 1000-2000$ range, probably at the lower end, else Fuji would not be able to sell the GFX at 6500$ in the US.

Hasselblad sells the exactly same sensor at 9000$ in the D1X and for 26 000 in the H6D.

The H5X body costs 7000$. A digital back is a somewhat simpler device than a digital camera. So Hasselblad would be able to sell the H6D for 16 000 $, but it is a different market. Or, used to be a different market. Ming Thein, Hasselblad Chief of Strategy has some things to figure…

Yes, I would think that prices may go up with the 100 MP sensor, but I would guess something like 2000-3000$ initial hike on price.

Best regards
Erik

There is one important aspect to consider. The current 50MP CMOS is a pretty old model, at the end of its life-cycle. That means that Sony is trying to sweep out of that from the storage room, so they can fill that in with some new fresh 100MP. Therefore the price of the current 50MP crop sensor might be pretty low.
If I would want to figure out the future price of the upcoming sensor (and the camera/back it is built in), I would look at the first generation devices' (IQ250, H5Dc, etc)  price at introduction.

BJL

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There is one important aspect to consider. The current 50MP CMOS is a pretty old model, at the end of its life-cycle. ... If I would want to figure out the future price of the upcoming sensor (and the camera/back it is built in), I would look at the first generation devices' (IQ250, H5Dc, etc)  price at introduction.
I mostly agree, but would more optimistically look at the Pentax 645Z launch price of US$8500, at least for how FujiFilm might price a next GFX model with 100MP 44x33mmm sensor. Phase One and Hasselblad SLR body and back pricing seems to be inflated by "lock-in", through lens ownership and such. These new EVF systems instead need to be priced so as to persuade people to buy a body and new lenses, so more like a "razor and blades" approach.

So I see a good chance of prices staying under US$10,000 for 100MP 44x33 EVF cameras.
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