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Author Topic: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?  (Read 1756 times)

jazzy

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Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« on: May 10, 2017, 08:59:48 AM »


I'm sure this must have been discussed before, but I just can't find it.

Just a simple question, is current Fuji G mount full frame (56x40mm) proof?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 09:07:46 AM by jazzy »
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Paul2660

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2017, 09:15:52 AM »

No

That size would crop considerably. Plus IC of lenses is designed around the smaller 44x33 sensor.
Fuji has claimed current lenses will work with 100mp resolution but Fuji is waiting on the next round of Sony 44x33 sensors as there should be a 100mp version coming by 2018.

Paul Caldwell
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 09:52:43 AM by Paul2660 »
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jazzy

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2017, 09:56:33 AM »


Thank you.

Out of the candidates (Phase One, Hasselblad, Fuji, Sony ..), who could we count on to make the first full frame mirrorless do you think?
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2017, 12:46:02 PM »

Thank you.

Out of the candidates (Phase One, Hasselblad, Fuji, Sony ..), who could we count on to make the first full frame mirrorless do you think?

Already happened:

https://www.phaseone.com/a-series

Jim

Joe Towner

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2017, 12:52:44 PM »

Phase One already does with their A-Series. What do you get from a 'full frame sensor'?  Are you expecting native lenses?  Or are you looking for a cheaper way to put a larger sensor behind some existing camera than the existing backs?

Given Phase's experience with the Sony 33x44, I wouldn't be surprised for them to do something, but really is that a market they want to play in?  Sony have a lot of work to do filling out the lenses for their A series camera, so I'm hard pressed to think they'll want to do another lens line up so quickly.  Hass & Fuji are all in on the smaller mount, so why do a larger one if they can get the next gen higher MP chip from Sony?

I asked the same question, if they could shoehorn the current 100mp chip into the X1D and got more or less the same answer.
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Wim van Velzen

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2017, 01:00:01 PM »

Alpa crossed my mind too.
I'd love a platform able to use so many legacy lenses in as much of their original film size as possible. The Alpa / Phase one a-series seems to use its own lenses only?
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hcubell

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2017, 02:12:46 PM »


Given Phase's experience with the Sony 33x44, I wouldn't be surprised for them to do something, but really is that a market they want to play in?  Sony have a lot of work to do filling out the lenses for their A series camera, so I'm hard pressed to think they'll want to do another lens line up so quickly.  Hass & Fuji are all in on the smaller mount, so why do a larger one if they can get the next gen higher MP chip from Sony?

I asked the same question, if they could shoehorn the current 100mp chip into the X1D and got more or less the same answer.

It may happen, but not as one would think. The V1D Concept Camera that Hasselblad exhibited at Photokina last year apparently "used" the full frame 100MP Sony sensor in a square format with the existing XCD lenses and offered a 75MP file. However, the forthcoming 100 MP cropped medium format sensor from Sony may make that approach with the existing 100MP sensor much less attractive.
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Joe Towner

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2017, 12:56:10 AM »

Alpa crossed my mind too.
I'd love a platform able to use so many legacy lenses in as much of their original film size as possible. The Alpa / Phase one a-series seems to use its own lenses only?

The Alpa / Phase is a pre-tuned setup, but more or less the same as a normal back and Rodenstock lenses.  You can use it just like any other Mamiya mount back.

As to old glass and large/newer sensors, it's really not going to get much better than now.  Old glass will give a look, but newer backs are at the point where any flaws that weren't visible before are now front & center.
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BJL

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2017, 01:34:17 AM »

Just a simple question, is current Fuji G mount full frame (56x40mm) proof?
I am almost certain that the lenses for the GFX are designed and optimized for its 44x33mm format (55mm diagonal), so that any up to about to about 55-65mm focal length will not work well or at all on the 54x40mm format, where they would require "wide-angle" designs. On the other hand, longer ones (the 110/2 and 120/4 so far) have a good chance of working, since optical designs for "longer than normal" lenses typically have an image circle not much smaller than their focal length, as a side-effect of how non-wide-angle lens designs work.  However even then, the diameter of the G lens mount might be too small, or the lens barrels too narrow in places, causing vignetting even if the optics of the actual "glass" produces a big enough image.

On your second question: if what you mean by "mirrorless" is "with EVF instead of OVF", then I think there is little chance of seeing such an "EVF camera system" in a format larger than 44x33mm anytime soon, if ever. (I prefer the positive description "EVF camera", since neither that Alpa/Phase A-Series nor a Leica rangefinder nor a view camera is what anyone has in mind with the name "mirrorless").

P. S. More on jargon: it strikes me as silly to use "full frame" to refer to film-derived formats like 36x24mm and 54x42mm but not to a system in an intermediate format like 44x33mm with all its lenses designed for that format, so that there is no forced crop.  Can we reserve "crop" for things like the cameras that use a 44x33mm sensor with lenses mostly or entirely designed for the larger 54x42mm format (so-called 645)?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2017, 12:08:06 PM »

Hi Bill,

Thanks for chiming in.

I am pretty sure the lenses are optimised for 44x33 mm. Sony has announced 100 MP sensors in 44x33 format coming under 2018 and I would expect those sensors showing up in new generation cameras from Fuji, Hasselblad and probably others. I would hope the new sensors have on sensor PDAF, that allows for fast focus on EVF cameras.

Optimising the lenses for the smaller format probably allows for even better image quality and possibly lower cost compared to lens designs that cover a larger area.

Best regards
Erik

I am almost certain that the lenses for the GFX are designed and optimized for its 44x33mm format (55mm diagonal), so that any up to about to about 55-65mm focal length will not work well or at all on the 54x40mm format, where they would require "wide-angle" designs. On the other hand, longer ones (the 110/2 and 120/4 so far) have a good chance of working, since optical designs for "longer than normal" lenses typically have an image circle not much smaller than their focal length, as a side-effect of how non-wide-angle lens designs work.  However even then, the diameter of the G lens mount might be too small, or the lens barrels too narrow in places, causing vignetting even if the optics of the actual "glass" produces a big enough image.

On your second question: if what you mean by "mirrorless" is "with EVF instead of OVF", then I think there is little chance of seeing such an "EVF camera system" in a format larger than 44x33mm anytime soon, if ever. (I prefer the positive description "EVF camera", since neither that Alpa/Phase A-Series nor a Leica rangefinder nor a view camera is what anyone has in mind with the name "mirrorless").

P. S. More on jargon: it strikes me as silly to use "full frame" to refer to film-derived formats like 36x24mm and 54x42mm but not to a system in an intermediate format like 44x33mm with all its lenses designed for that format, so that there is no forced crop.  Can we reserve "crop" for things like the cameras that use a 44x33mm sensor with lenses mostly or entirely designed for the larger 54x42mm format (so-called 645)?

jazzy

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2017, 10:18:55 PM »

I am almost certain that the lenses for the GFX are designed and optimized for its 44x33mm format (55mm diagonal), so that any up to about to about 55-65mm focal length will not work well or at all on the 54x40mm format, where they would require "wide-angle" designs. On the other hand, longer ones (the 110/2 and 120/4 so far) have a good chance of working, since optical designs for "longer than normal" lenses typically have an image circle not much smaller than their focal length, as a side-effect of how non-wide-angle lens designs work.  However even then, the diameter of the G lens mount might be too small, or the lens barrels too narrow in places, causing vignetting even if the optics of the actual "glass" produces a big enough image.

On your second question: if what you mean by "mirrorless" is "with EVF instead of OVF", then I think there is little chance of seeing such an "EVF camera system" in a format larger than 44x33mm anytime soon, if ever. (I prefer the positive description "EVF camera", since neither that Alpa/Phase A-Series nor a Leica rangefinder nor a view camera is what anyone has in mind with the name "mirrorless").

P. S. More on jargon: it strikes me as silly to use "full frame" to refer to film-derived formats like 36x24mm and 54x42mm but not to a system in an intermediate format like 44x33mm with all its lenses designed for that format, so that there is no forced crop.  Can we reserve "crop" for things like the cameras that use a 44x33mm sensor with lenses mostly or entirely designed for the larger 54x42mm format (so-called 645)?


Thank you for your response. I'm clear about the limitation of Fuji G mount and also agree on the jargons, however until there is more universally adopted terms, "full/crop" still a convenient and understood way to talking about them.

And yes, I do mean mirrorless with EVF. Would you care to elaborate why you think there's little chance to seeing them with 56x40mm sensor?


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Christopher

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2017, 12:30:04 AM »

Because Fuji and Hassi committed to the smaller format and won't create a second lens line up.

Phase needed long for the XF, which is a great system. But releasing a new camera with a whole new set of lenses ? Wouldn't bet on it.

Sony and the rest, I don't think they have any interest at all at the moment. They are happy with FF 36.


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Paul2660

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2017, 07:38:14 AM »

All Phase needs is an adapter like Hasselblad made to use existing glass.  The sheer mass of the most of the modern BR zooms might be an issue, but it could be done.

Phase will in time need to have a similar product, but more than likely it will not appear till 2018. 

Paul Caldwell
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hubell

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2017, 08:53:37 AM »

Not so sure Phase will jump in. My guess from looking at the Fuji GFX Facebook page and other random sources is that well over 95% of the buyers of the GFX are coming from Fuji X series cameras and DSLRs, and they would never have been real potential customers of the Phase XF system. Phase One is really not losing much money, if any, with the kind of customers it has traditionally relied upon to support its high price point business model. It has no interest in fighting with Fuji or Hasselblad at the low end of the market. Will that change when Fuji has the forthcoming 100MP Sony sensor and Phase has to convince its customer base that they now REALLY REALLY NEED 150MP and 100MP just isn't good enough? Probably not.
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Paul2660

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2017, 09:18:42 AM »

Time will tell for sure. But for sure there are a lot of non Fuji X series users on the Fuji GFX forum. Reports daily from Canon Nikon Phase One users.

Due to cost factor of GFX many current X shooters have not opted in.

Paul Caldwell
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ErikKaffehr

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A general comment
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2017, 12:29:23 PM »

Hi,

I would say that it is a good thing that we have affordable medium format. I would guess that building an MFD system based on the GFX or the X1D is something like 2x3 times the cost of top class 24x36 (ignoring sport shooter's cameras and Leica). For that money it seems that the buyer gets a decent increase of image quality.

Traditional MFD is much more expensive. I guess that Hasselblad may need to reconsider it's price structure. Phase One may be more oriented towards 100 MP full frame and they have a great 100 MP sensor from Sony that they sell at a very premium price. Hasselblad of course also sell the same sensor, possibly at a more reasonable price.

It makes some sense to speculate a bit. Sony will produce a 100 MP sensor for 44x33 mm. Fuji says that it's lenses are designed for 100 MP and that also probably applies to the X1D lenses.

So, next year we will probably see 100 MP on 44x33, and I would guess pricing will be close to what we have now. So you can probably have camera body with one or two lenses system yielding 100 MP of perfectly good pixels for something like 10k $US. Will it make sense to spend 3-4 times the amount on a 100 MP 54x40 mm system?

Sony has also announced 150 MP 54x40 mm for 2018, so it is very likely that we will see 150 MP 54x100 mm, but will that deliver on image quality? I am pretty sure it will, using the best Rodenstock lenses on a technical camera.

But, I would assume that the 10 k$ 44x33 mm system at 100 MP may be the sweet spot for great a lot of MFD users. Some users may settle 24x36 mm at say 36-70 MP or 24MP APS-C. In many cases, 4/3 may be the best choice of system, it all depends on needs.  Just as an example, Sony makes some nice lenses called G-Master for the A7/A9. But those lenses are big. Having a small camera is no great advantage if you need to carry a bunch of big and heavy lenses.

Fuji has long made a great APS-C system with well designed lenses. Such a system may be optimal if no very large prints are needed. On the other hand, we have the Sony A6500, a great camera with an incredible sensor, but I am not sure that Sony makes a good set of optimal lenses for it.

Just to say, GFX and X1D makes a lot of sense. Those systems bring the wind of change to medium format.

Best regards
Erik

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Can Fuji GFX mount in 44x33 format cover 52x40 format?
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2017, 10:42:02 AM »

Thank you for your response. I'm clear about the limitation of Fuji G mount and also agree on the jargons, however until there is more universally adopted terms, "full/crop" still a convenient and understood way to talking about them.
I know it is quixotic (after all, we still measure engine power output by comparison to horses!) but in a forum like this full of knowledgable photographers, using sizes in mm seems easy, accurate, informative, and free of misleading connotations: 36x24, 44x33, 52x40, etc.
After all that is how large film formats and prints have always been described (but with inches): 4x5, 5x7, 8x10 and so on. Also, is some countries, "36x24" is a common usage for the standard 35mm film formats clearly photographers can handle it.  (And those numerical descriptions are shorter than "full frame" or "crop format", so there can be no complaint on that count.)

Anyway, I have "corrected" your subject line!

And yes, I do mean mirrorless with EVF. Would you care to elaborate why you think there's little chance to seeing them with 56x40mm sensor?
Other have made some good arguments, so I do not have much to add.  However, Eric's point about the coming 100MP sensor in 44x33mm format does make me think that there is a very small and shrinking range of application where the larger 52x40mm format would show any significant advantage, because the vast majority of scenes cannot sustain even as much detail as a 100MP sensor gives.

Why? In short, due to the trade-off between limiting OOF blurring (requiring a small enough aperture size) and limiting diffraction blurring (requiring a larger enough aperture size), which sets the same limit on total image detail regardless of format.  If anything, seeking higher resolution to make use of higher pixel counts requires ever smaller apertures to get the desired main scene elements "in focus" to a tighter standard, and then diffraction effects get worse.

Also, stitching is often a far less expensive alternative with stationary subjects.
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Petrus

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2017, 03:32:41 AM »

I'm sure this must have been discussed before, but I just can't find it.

Just a simple question, is current Fuji G mount full frame (56x40mm) proof?

I can not quite understand the question, and answers. Why would the GFX MOUNT not accommodate lenses which would cover 56x40mm sensor? Present Fujinon lenses for the FGX mount do not, but is there any reason why, in the future, there would not be lenses using the same mount, but with larger image circle? Is the opening too small (not), distance to the sensor too short (possible)?
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Wim van Velzen

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Re: Can Fuji GFX mount cover full frame sensor?
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2017, 08:11:57 AM »

I think the question is 'can Fuji make a camera with a 54x42mm sensor and the GFX mount?'.
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