Mamiya 645AFD with Digital Back suggestions

[BCMielke]

I purchased this camera quite some time ago and have shot film through it for a number of years.  I have always wanted to try a Digital Back at some point and I think that point may be in the near future.

I have done a little bit of research, but there are more things that I don't know than I do.  I was hoping for someone to help guide me to the correct Digital back for my use.  Since this is a hobby and really a third camera for me cost will be a concern.  I am planning to fund the digital back by selling some of my glass that I purchased through the years and don't use.  I was at point point heavily into the Fuji system for all of my needs and I believe that I can now pair that down quite a bit.

This is how I currently use my Mamiya

1.  For Head shots that I want taken for film(mostly this is the second camera for that.)
2.  Family portraits in the studio
3.  Flower shots in the house or at the local Botanic Garden
4.  Landscape photos
5.  Has to use a CF Card to take out of the studio/house
6.  I would rather it be CCD and not a crop frame.  (I don't think that is an issue with the price point I have set since the back will be older)

My budget is pretty small for a digital back, but looking on-line I believe it is doable with what I hope to spend.  That is roughly $2000.  I would rather it be less, but not too much more. 

Thanks so much for the help.

[BobShaw]

Sell the Mamiya AFD and buy a Hasselblad. That turned out being cheaper for me than trying to get a back for the Mamiya which won't work anyway unless it is an AFDIII.

[BCMielke]

Why do you say that.  I almost all of the older backs I have looked at from Leaf have said that the Mamiya AFD is compatible with them.  With my price range I can't afford nor do I currently see a need for a more recent back.

[billthecat]

How about the Leaf Aptus 22?

I always loved the images and it is in your budget. You need enough light and can't go long exposures.

Bill

[BCMielke]

That's one that I have been looking into.  There doesn't seem to be very many of them available though.

[Steve Hendrix]

Why do you say that.  I almost all of the older backs I have looked at from Leaf have said that the Mamiya AFD is compatible with them.  With my price range I can't afford nor do I currently see a need for a more recent back.

You are correct. There are many legacy digital backs that can be mated to Mamiya AFD/AFD II cameras.

Leaf Aptus Series
Phase One P and P+ Series
Sinar eMotion 22/75 (with adapter)
Hasselblad CF Series (with adapter)

The Leaf/Phase One/Sinar products can be found just as affordably as a Hasselblad.


Steve Hendrix/CI

[billthecat]

I found 2 on Ebay from KehOutlet and one from Russia
http://r.ebay.com/dIe4j5

[BobShaw]

Why do you say that.  I almost all of the older backs I have looked at from Leaf have said that the Mamiya AFD is compatible with them.  With my price range I can't afford nor do I currently see a need for a more recent back.

I am glad that you put older and Leaf in the same sentence. I think that the Aptus might work on your AFD, but may not if you upgrade the back to AFDIII. So you may be committing yourself to an expensive path later. There are differences between AFDI, II and III, perhaps more to do with lens support.
Nostalgia is great, but after spending this many thousands you will have an old and in my opinion not elegant camera with a limited lens range and upgrade path that shoots 22MP built in 2001.
I have a 21MP Canon 5D2 made in 2009 that you can have for a lot less.

I can only relate my experience.
I bought a Hasselblad H1 kit with Phase P21+ back (from memory) with an 80mm lens for $4000AU (about $3000 US). I then sold all of my Mamiya AFD stuff for about $1000 so it cost $3000. The Hassy took all of the current lenses I think and had leaf shutter.
I have since gone to H2, H3DII-31, H3DII-39 and now H4D body. All lenses compatible up to the current H6D. You get far better value with Hasselblad backs than Phase backs and the camera is integrated (one battery).
That to me is much better than a multivendor camera.

[Joe Towner]

Let me start by saying thank you for providing a good understanding as to what you are currently shooting and how you'd use it.  It helps settle a lot of 'what if' situations.

With that, your biggest issue will be supply and demand - as in your price range has lots of folks looking, and unfortunately not a lot of gear pops up (aka it either died from abuse or is still working like a champ).  Sticking with the AFD is going to be easy, if you're patient and can strike quickly.  In the mean time I'd connect with the PhaseOne dealer closest to you and get some raw files from the Leaf Aptus and Phase One P and P+ series.  CaptureOne will work for free in 'DB mode' with these files, so investigate how editing & color work for you.  There is a difference, but it's a personal taste thing and you really should decide if either or both work for you.

I'd check the this specific auction, as having to add a battery and charger after purchase quickly add up.

Bob makes some great points about the integrated H system, but Hasselblad glass is a lot more expensive due to the shutter than non-leaf M645 glass.  Also the swapping in film doesn't work on most of the H system.

[BCMielke]

I can only relate my experience.
I bought a Hasselblad H1 kit with Phase P21+ back (from memory) with an 80mm lens for $4000AU (about $3000 US). I then sold all of my Mamiya AFD stuff for about $1000 so it cost $3000. The Hassy took all of the current lenses I think and had leaf shutter.

Thanks Bob, those are some good points.  If I felt I was going to move only to MF as my digital camera of choice this makes complete sense.  Since I already have some MF and AF Mamiya glass.  The H1 kit I don't think will use film and I don't want to stop using my MF film, just supplement it with digital.

I can only relate my experience.
I bought a Hasselblad H1 kit with Phase P21+ back (from memory) with an 80mm lens for $4000AU (about $3000 US). I then sold all of my Mamiya AFD stuff for about $1000 so it cost $3000. The Hassy took all of the current lenses I think and had leaf shutter.

I am in the Chicago area, where is the nearest digital back dealer to ask that question of?  I know, google is my friend!

Thanks everyone for the discussion, it has been helpful.

[Joe Towner]

Two options are located near you, but DT & CI are both links above on this site and both have a presence here on LuLa.

ProGear 1740 W Carroll Ave 60612 Chicago Illinois Tel: 312-376-3770 Fax: 312-376-3772 Email www.progearrental.com
Dodd Camera 2077 E. 30th St. 44115 Cleveland Ohio Tel: 216-361-6805 Fax: 216-361-6819 Email www.doddpro.com

If you can swing it, I'd actually recommend looking into getting your Phase One Certified Professional, as it'll give you some experience with the digital backs and you'll gain some tips with workflow and Capture One software.  https://www.phaseone.com/en/POCP/POCP-Workshop-Dates.aspx

[BobShaw]

The H1 kit I don't think will use film and I don't want to stop using my MF film, just supplement it with digital.

The H1, H2 and H3DI all support film with the HM1632 film back and polaroid back. Then Hasselblad decided that film was dead and the H3DII and H4 did not support the film back. I sold all of my film backs cheap. Then they decided that film was reborn and is supported in the current H5 and H6 cameras. Those same film backs now sell for a lot more. Doh!

[Steve Hendrix]

I am glad that you put older and Leaf in the same sentence. I think that the Aptus might work on your AFD, but may not if you upgrade the back to AFDIII. So you may be committing yourself to an expensive path later. There are differences between AFDI, II and III, perhaps more to do with lens support.
Nostalgia is great, but after spending this many thousands you will have an old and in my opinion not elegant camera with a limited lens range and upgrade path that shoots 22MP built in 2001.
I have a 21MP Canon 5D2 made in 2009 that you can have for a lot less.

I can only relate my experience.
I bought a Hasselblad H1 kit with Phase P21+ back (from memory) with an 80mm lens for $4000AU (about $3000 US). I then sold all of my Mamiya AFD stuff for about $1000 so it cost $3000. The Hassy took all of the current lenses I think and had leaf shutter.
I have since gone to H2, H3DII-31, H3DII-39 and now H4D body. All lenses compatible up to the current H6D. You get far better value with Hasselblad backs than Phase backs and the camera is integrated (one battery).
That to me is much better than a multivendor camera.

Bob - I know that (I mean I think that) you are trying to help, but it might be more helpful if you spoke about what you know regarding the Hasselblad system rather than what you think you might know regarding the Phase/Mamiya/leaf systems. It's great you have a fondness for the Hasselblad system. Talk about that.

The Leaf Aptus will work on AFD/AFD-II/AFD-III/DF/DF+. It is compatible with every Mamiya 645 mount body produced since the AFD up until the DF+. All of the Mamiya auto focus lenses will work on those same cameras (and even the XF camera). Note that the DF/DF+/XF do not support film backs, but all previous AFD cameras do.


Steve Hendrix/CI

[BobShaw]

Sorry, it's easy to get confused when there are so many vendors involved in one camera.

[Steve Hendrix]

Sorry, it's easy to get confused when there are so many vendors involved in one camera.

You're right Bob. And modular camera systems are inherently more complex and have more configuration/compatibility options and factors to consider, that's for sure.

But generally, with regard to the Mamiya/Phase One 645 system, Leaf and Phase One backs can be treated the same, but note there are generational differences. The below compatibility information covers digital back and camera systems dating back to 2001.


* Digital Back compatibility:
- Phase One XF: Phase One IQ Series or Leaf Credo
- Mamiya/Phase One DF/DF+: Leaf Valeo/Aptus/Aptus-II/Credo & Phase One P/P+/IQ Series
- Mamiya/Phase One AFD/AFD-II/AFD-III: Leaf Valeo/Aptus/Aptus-II & Phase One P/P+
- There are also 3rd party adapters for 3rd party digital backs for Imacon/Hasselblad, Sinar, Jenoptik, etc, for AFD (and I think) DF/DF+.

* Film Back compatibility:
- Phase One XF, Mamiya/Phase One DF/DF+: Not compatible
- Mamiya Phase One AFD: Yes compatible

* Lenses
- Phase One XF, Mamiya/Phase One DF/DF+: Schneider-Kreuznach, Mamiya/Phase One D Series, Mamiya AF (some may require a firmware update), Mamiya Manual Focus (most manual focus will require modification for XF), Hasselblad V and Pentacon (with adapter)
- Mamiya/Phase One AFD Series: Mamiya/Phase One D Lenses, Mamiya AF Lenses (some may require a firmware update), Mamiya Manual Focus Lenses, Hasselblad V and Pentacon Lenses (with adapter)



Steve Hendrix/CI

[Ken Doo]

If I were looking at using an older MFDB and body-----I'd look for a MFDB system that simply works well "easily" without much effort.  Less complications means less headaches.  When I had the old 645AFD (yeah, that old one that also took the film backs shooting weddings), I used the Phase One P30.  Simple and it works. The P30/P30+ MFDB is easy to use and produces beautiful files right out of the box. You can easily upgrade to a better camera body just short of the XF....

ken

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Steve,

The OP is on limited budget, like 2K $US. Most main stream MFD backs are still quite a bit above that mark. A P25 back may be ideal. As far as I know it is 1.1X crop. Many of the other backs are 1.3X crop, thus limiting wide angle options.

I have a P45+ for V-series Hasselblad. My experience is mainly positive, it can deliver very good image quality and it is very well built. I am not sure that MFD is the holy grail of image quality, though. But, if you happen to have MF equipment that you want to put to use in the digital age, I would say a used Phase One back is a great way to do it.

But, you know, times are changing. We have some bold new systems optimised for 44x33 mm at very reasonable prices. We may have a new dawn for for affordable MFD.

Best regards
Erik

You're right Bob. And modular camera systems are inherently more complex and have more configuration/compatibility options and factors to consider, that's for sure.

But generally, with regard to the Mamiya/Phase One 645 system, Leaf and Phase One backs can be treated the same, but note there are generational differences. The below compatibility information covers digital back and camera systems dating back to 2001.


* Digital Back compatibility:
- Phase One XF: Phase One IQ Series or Leaf Credo
- Mamiya/Phase One DF/DF+: Leaf Valeo/Aptus/Aptus-II/Credo & Phase One P/P+/IQ Series
- Mamiya/Phase One AFD/AFD-II/AFD-III: Leaf Valeo/Aptus/Aptus-II & Phase One P/P+
- There are also 3rd party adapters for 3rd party digital backs for Imacon/Hasselblad, Sinar, Jenoptik, etc, for AFD (and I think) DF/DF+.

* Film Back compatibility:
- Phase One XF, Mamiya/Phase One DF/DF+: Not compatible
- Mamiya Phase One AFD: Yes compatible

* Lenses
- Phase One XF, Mamiya/Phase One DF/DF+: Schneider-Kreuznach, Mamiya/Phase One D Series, Mamiya AF (some may require a firmware update), Mamiya Manual Focus (most manual focus will require modification for XF), Hasselblad V and Pentacon (with adapter)
- Mamiya/Phase One AFD Series: Mamiya/Phase One D Lenses, Mamiya AF Lenses (some may require a firmware update), Mamiya Manual Focus Lenses, Hasselblad V and Pentacon Lenses (with adapter)



Steve Hendrix/CI

[Steve Hendrix]

Hi Steve,

The OP is on limited budget, like 2K $US. Most main stream MFD backs are still quite a bit above that mark. A P25 back may be ideal. As far as I know it is 1.1X crop. Many of the other backs are 1.3X crop, thus limiting wide angle options.

I have a P45+ for V-series Hasselblad. My experience is mainly positive, it can deliver very good image quality and it is very well built. I am not sure that MFD is the holy grail of image quality, though. But, if you happen to have MF equipment that you want to put to use in the digital age, I would say a used Phase One back is a great way to do it.

But, you know, times are changing. We have some bold new systems optimised for 44x33 mm at very reasonable prices. We may have a new dawn for for affordable MFD.

Best regards
Erik

Yes, I saw his budget and noticed inaccurate information about the digital back choices for that camera within that budget, which is why I made the detailed post correcting the errors. Leaf Aptus/Aptus-II/Phase One P/P+ models can be found starting at his $2,000 budget level (a bit higher for dealers who offer these models with full warranty (as we do).

Not everyone wants or needs the modern technical advantages of current gear. Especially if they have been shooting film and are fine with the limitations of shooting with those restrictions. I'm all for modern technology but I still understand and accept if someone doesn't feel like investing in that. Some users prefer the look of older moderate resolution digital backs.


Steve Hendrix/CI

[BCMielke]

The OP is on limited budget, like 2K $US. Most main stream MFD backs are still quite a bit above that mark. A P25 back may be ideal. As far as I know it is 1.1X crop. Many of the other backs are 1.3X crop, thus limiting wide angle options.

Believe you me I would love to spend more, but this is someplace to start.  If I find that this format then becomes my format of choice I can always upgrade from there. 

But generally, with regard to the Mamiya/Phase One 645 system, Leaf and Phase One backs can be treated the same, but note there are generational differences. The below compatibility information covers digital back and camera systems dating back to 2001.

Thanks Steve, for the table, that makes things very clear.

I can only relate my experience.
I bought a Hasselblad H1 kit with Phase P21+ back (from memory) with an 80mm lens for $4000AU (about $3000 US). I then sold all of my Mamiya AFD stuff for about $1000 so it cost $3000. The Hassy took all of the current lenses I think and had leaf shutter.

I would love some Hasselblad gear, but I have a pretty reasonable kit for the Mamiya at this time.  If Hasselblad proves to be the way to go, it may be costly to change, but at least I know then that it is worth the cost to me.  At this point I don't know. 

[BCMielke]

Leaf Aptus Series
Phase One P and P+ Series
Sinar eMotion 22/75 (with adapter)
Hasselblad CF Series (with adapter)

I am not familiar with the bottom 2.  I will have to do some research.  I know that I want the closest to full 645 frame as I can get for my price range. 

Thanks for the suggestions.