Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson  (Read 7839 times)

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« on: April 28, 2017, 01:13:51 am »

Hi,

Jim Kasson has published a lot of interesting things from his experience with the Fuji GFX.

Here he compares the Sony A7rII and the Otus 55 with the GFX and it's 63/2.8 lens:




What the story tells here is that the Otus reaches 2300 lp/mm at f/2.8 while the Fuji lens reaches perhaps 2750 lp/PH. Jim forgot to put units on the horisontal axis this time, but I am pretty sure it is movement of focusing rail in cm in object space.

It is notable that there is a very significant focus shift on the 63 mm lens. If you focus at f/4 and stop down to f/5.6 after focusing you get something like 2000 lp/PH instead of the optimum 2600 lp/mm. Just keep in mind, even 2000 lp/PH is pretty good. The Otus also has some focus shift, but far less than the 63 mm lens.

Jim also made a comparison between that A7rII and the GFX using the same 85 mm Otus lens.
A7rII and the GFX using the same 85 mm Otus lens





Here the Otus reaches something like 3000 lp/PH in the green channel while the A7rII reaches around 2100, that is a whopping 40% difference! Much more than what we would expect. The sensor size plays a role but another major factor is the size of the pixel aperture. The Sony A7rII sensor has gapless microlenses while the GFX has smaller microlenses, so the GFX is doing more of point sampling while the A7rII is doing a bit more of area sampling.

Jim also has confirmed that the GFX has issues with AF:



While manual focusing is accurate:



Finally, Jim has some comments on manually focusing the GFX, worth reading! http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/manually-focusing-the-fujifilm-gfx-50s/

Best regards
Erik
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2017, 03:07:44 am »

Could it be that the difference in resolution is partially impacted by the adapter used to mound the Otus on the Sony?

It would be interesting to see the results with the native lens mount for which the Otus was designed.

Cheers,
Bernard

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2017, 03:14:25 am »

Hi Bernard,

The adapter contains a mixture of Nitrogen, Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide, so it cannot affect optical performance in the point of focus, aspecieally as the Nikon mount contains the same amount and composition the mixture.

Cover glass differences may matter a bit, but it is probably not the case. The 800 gorilla is raw conversion, LR will use different sharpening for different lens sensor combinations.

Jim looks at the issue here: http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/otus-55-on-d810-a7rii/

Best regards
Erik



Could it be that the difference in resolution is partially impacted by the adapter used to mound the Otus on the Sony?

It would be interesting to see the results with the native lens mount for which the Otus was designed.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 03:18:10 am by ErikKaffehr »
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2017, 03:45:10 am »

Hi Bernard,

The adapter contains a mixture of Nitrogen, Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide, so it cannot affect optical performance in the point of focus, aspecieally as the Nikon mount contains the same amount and composition the mixture.

Cover glass differences may matter a bit, but it is probably not the case. The 800 gorilla is raw conversion, LR will use different sharpening for different lens sensor combinations.

Jim looks at the issue here: http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/otus-55-on-d810-a7rii/

Best regards
Erik

You believe that issues with tolerances in terms of physical distance between lens rear element and sensor has zero impact on image quality?

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2017, 04:01:07 am »

Hi Bernard,

In the point of focus tolerance would not matter at all. I would think that there will be some loss of sharpness along the sides corners.

The CoC caused by misalignment is DeltaF / Aperture. So 40 microns of misalignment at f/8 would give a CoC of five microns. At large apertures misalignment matters more.

Jim's comparison of D810, A7rII and GFX covers both center and corners.

Some adapters probably have better tolerances than others. When using my Hasselblad 180/4 on the Sony I get very good results across the field although I use two adapters. HCam Master TSII and a Canon EF to Hasselblad V-adapter from Novoflex.

Best regards
Erik

You believe that issues with tolerances in terms of physical distance between lens rear element and sensor has zero impact on image quality?

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Quentin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1222
    • Quentin on Facebook
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2017, 06:11:19 am »

This is excellent work by Jim and thanks to Erik for mentioning it.

The big issue for me focusing in the days of film was film flatness.  That affected some roll film cameras more than others, and affected sharpness one shot to the next, particularly if the film had been left in the camera for a few days or more. Rollei were better than Bronica in that regard, as I recall, and of course large format was also imprecise.

I would my voice to Jim's request for variable peeking strength settings and higher magnification in live view.  These are features that could easily be added by way of a firmware update.
Logged
Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, Arbitrato

Hank Keeton

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 49
    • SeeingTao
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2017, 09:53:53 am »

Well...I'm a bit confused...since Jim seems to be talking about cycles/picture height (cy/ph) not line-pairs/millimeter (lp/mm).

See.....https://www.image-engineering.de/library/technotes/761-resolution-measurement-and-its-units for some good comparisons.

Cheers,

Hank
Logged
....always seeking.....

SeeingTao.com

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2017, 10:40:38 am »

You believe that issues with tolerances in terms of physical distance between lens rear element and sensor has zero impact on image quality?


If an adapter is the wrong thickness, lenses with floating elements may not perform at their best, since the lens will think its the wrong distance from the sensor when it moves the floating elements. If the lens focuses by moving the entire element assembly, an adapter that is the wrong thickness will be compensated for by the focusing helicoid.

It's pretty easy to check to see if the adapter is the right thickness; focus on a distant object and look at the distance scale on the lens.

The adapter that I used for the a7RII test was a Kipon adapter that, unusually among adapters, is not designed to be short.

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/still-more-on-adapter-tolerance/

Another possible IQ-affecting adapter defect is having the two flanges not parallel. This is harder to check, as it requires aligning the camera to a planar surface. The adapter I used for the a7RII is as parallel as can test for. In any event, for testing on-axis sharpness, whether the two flanges are parallel or not is inconsequential.

I have tested that very Otus on an D810, and it performs slightly worse than it does on an a7RII, because of the resolution differences between the two cameras.

Jim

Jack Hogan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 798
    • Hikes -more than strolls- with my dog
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2017, 10:42:17 am »

Well...I'm a bit confused...since Jim seems to be talking about cycles/picture height (cy/ph) not line-pairs/millimeter (lp/mm).

Line pairs (or cycles) per picture height are the correct units for comparing images from different formats displayed at the same final size, which is what we are after here right?

Jack
Logged

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2017, 10:47:32 am »

Well...I'm a bit confused...since Jim seems to be talking about cycles/picture height (cy/ph) not line-pairs/millimeter (lp/mm).

See.....https://www.image-engineering.de/library/technotes/761-resolution-measurement-and-its-units for some good comparisons.


I'm measuring system performance, not lens performance. There is no reason to think that the lens resolution itself is materially different on a different camera, except maybe for sensor stack effects. The current conventional wisdom seems to be that the GFX stack is less Otus-friendly than the a7RII stack. I don't believe -- or disbelieve -- that. but from my testing, the effect has to be very small.

So why is the Otus on-axis MTF50 better on the GFX?

Larger sensor size
Lower fill factor
More pixels


Jim

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2017, 10:51:21 am »


Cover glass differences may matter a bit, but it is probably not the case. The 800 gorilla is raw conversion, LR will use different sharpening for different lens sensor combinations.



You can find tests of the GFX and a7RII that use dcraw for demosacing on my blog, and you can also find tests that measure each raw color plane separately.

Jim

Michael Erlewine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1027
    • MacroStop.com
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2017, 11:24:23 am »

You can find tests of the GFX and a7RII that use dcraw for demosacing on my blog, and you can also find tests that measure each raw color plane separately.

Jim

What raw converters have you found (or heard about) that do the best job on the X1D or GFX?
Logged
MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com. Founder MacroStop.com, MichaelErlewine.com, YouTube.com/user/merlewine

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2017, 11:38:20 am »

What raw converters have you found (or heard about) that do the best job on the X1D or GFX?

So far, I've just used Lr, dcraw, and Iridient X-Transformer. The Iridient tool is probably the best if you want access to modern demosaicing algorithms and want control over the process. Lr is pretty opaque. dcraw is most useful as a starting point for analysis. dcraw still does not natively decode GFX files, or at least the version I have doesn't; so i run the files through Adobe's long-in-the-tooth DNG Converter. 

In the past, I have thought that Iridient Developer was the best raw developer, but it didn't fit with my workflow, so I didn't use it much. It's probably still near the top of the list.

Jim

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2017, 01:28:42 pm »

Hi,

If you compare two sensors of different size it would make a lot of sense to use the format dependent cy/PH. Comparing two lenses on the same format you could use either.

This is a good example:


The green line is measured with the Sony 90/2.8G Macro. It would deliver 50% MTF at something like 67 lp/mm, while the Planar 100 on the P45+ would stay at say 46 lp/mm for 50% MTF.

But, image height is 24 mm on the A7rII and it is 37 mm on the P45+. So, the correct lp/mm for comparing the Planar 100/P45+ combo would be 67 * 24 / 37 -> 43 lp/mm and the Planar 100/P45+ combo would deliver something like 52% MTF.

So in that case the two systems would be pretty close.

Using the LP/PH figure is as close to apples to apples comparison as you can get.

Best regards
Erik

Well...I'm a bit confused...since Jim seems to be talking about cycles/picture height (cy/ph) not line-pairs/millimeter (lp/mm).

See.....https://www.image-engineering.de/library/technotes/761-resolution-measurement-and-its-units for some good comparisons.

Cheers,

Hank
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Stephen Scharf

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 168
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2017, 08:48:42 pm »

While I appreciate this initial work done by Jim, for me, it's difficult, if not impossible, to draw any practically significant conclusions from some of the data for the following reasons:

1) The data set is limited; one cannot draw statistically valid inferences from an N=1 for each item under test.
2) What is the null hypothesis (Ho) being tested? It is not stated, nor is the alternate hypothesis (Ha).
2) The measurement terms are not defined. What is cycles/picture height defined and how is it measured? What does measuring this functional response mean in practical terms?
3) Some of the axes for some of the graphs are not labeled, nor are the units of measure for these axes.
4) The histogram data has no error bars. Any measure of means or median has to also provide a measure of variance e.g. SD, Variance or CV. Also, the confidence levels are not stated. There is no way to conclude that the difference in values observed in the histogram plots are statistically significant or not without providing an SD and confidence interval.  The best way to do this would be a one-way ANOVA, and a Tukey HSM pair-wise comparison, reporting p-values for the differences.
5) No description of a statistically valid Measurement Systems Analysis was performed, so there is no way to know that the measurement system is fit for purpose for what was being measured, and therefore, that the observed differences are real and not simply the result of sampling error or % contribution by the measurement system. There is no variance components analysis to characterize the part-to-part variance, operator-to-part interaction, operator-to-gage interaction, and the overall gage % contribution to the overall study variance (sums of squares of the overall variance). In essence, no data is provided to demonstrate the measurement system as a whole has sufficient measurement system precision to know any observed differences are real, not due to noise, part to part variability or intrinsic measurement system noise (*all* data sets contain noise, *some* contain signals).

« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 08:54:43 pm by Stephen Scharf »
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2017, 04:48:24 am »

Hi Stephen,

I would suggest that you may need to read all 53 or so postings on the Fuji GFX and perhaps a few other articles explaining the measurements.

The term cy/PH is widely used and it is the same lp/PH (Line Pairs at picture height). Three parameters are not clear, the first one is the MTF the lp/PH relates to. If you read Jim's posting you learn that he measures at 50% MTF. That is also pretty standard in the industry. One issue is that he uses Lightroom for raw conversion with sharpening "disabled", but it still seems that Lightroom applies some sharpening.

I agree that Jim has probably been in a hurry enough to forget labelling some of the horizontal axes. Mostly the scale is movement of Stackshot used for focus bracketing in cm-s.

You are right that there are sample variations. What Jim's data indicates is that there are some systematic problems, though. It seems that neither the 120 macro or the 63/2.8 can match manual focus at some apertures. 

The way it is, we simply don't have any better data than Jim's as no one else has reported on similar measurements on the Fuji GFX. Finding and disclosing issues is a positive thing. It offers incentive for Fuji to fix those things and it may help GFX users in making best use of their equipment until Fuji has fixed those issues.

Best regards
Erik

While I appreciate this initial work done by Jim, for me, it's difficult, if not impossible, to draw any practically significant conclusions from some of the data for the following reasons:

1) The data set is limited; one cannot draw statistically valid inferences from an N=1 for each item under test.
2) What is the null hypothesis (Ho) being tested? It is not stated, nor is the alternate hypothesis (Ha).
2) The measurement terms are not defined. What is cycles/picture height defined and how is it measured? What does measuring this functional response mean in practical terms?
3) Some of the axes for some of the graphs are not labeled, nor are the units of measure for these axes.
4) The histogram data has no error bars. Any measure of means or median has to also provide a measure of variance e.g. SD, Variance or CV. Also, the confidence levels are not stated. There is no way to conclude that the difference in values observed in the histogram plots are statistically significant or not without providing an SD and confidence interval.  The best way to do this would be a one-way ANOVA, and a Tukey HSM pair-wise comparison, reporting p-values for the differences.
5) No description of a statistically valid Measurement Systems Analysis was performed, so there is no way to know that the measurement system is fit for purpose for what was being measured, and therefore, that the observed differences are real and not simply the result of sampling error or % contribution by the measurement system. There is no variance components analysis to characterize the part-to-part variance, operator-to-part interaction, operator-to-gage interaction, and the overall gage % contribution to the overall study variance (sums of squares of the overall variance). In essence, no data is provided to demonstrate the measurement system as a whole has sufficient measurement system precision to know any observed differences are real, not due to noise, part to part variability or intrinsic measurement system noise (*all* data sets contain noise, *some* contain signals).
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2017, 11:03:32 am »

While I appreciate this initial work done by Jim, for me, it's difficult, if not impossible, to draw any practically significant conclusions from some of the data for the following reasons:

Well, this is indeed a refreshing change of pace. My work is usually criticized for being overly quantitative, and relying on numbers as graphs when a simple picture would make the point.

1) The data set is limited; one cannot draw statistically valid inferences from an N=1 for each item under test.

That is of course a valid point. Except for Roger Cicala’s excellent work, I don’t know where you’re going to go for larger sample sets. Right here on LuLa, the sample size is usually (always?) one; are you chastising the people who charge you to read their tests for that? I do look for unreasonable results, and sometimes obtain another sample if I get them. I also check lenses for decentering and focus plane tilt, two indicators of improper assembly.

2) What is the null hypothesis (Ho) being tested? It is not stated, nor is the alternate hypothesis (Ha).

My blog posts are not intended for peer-reviewed scientific publications. I don’t have the time of inclination to test to those standards, nor would my readers have the patience to deal with writings that met the standards of scientific publications. All I am doing is applying what I call “kitchen optics” – tests that almost any reader could perform for herself, given the time and a modicum of equipment – to cameras and lenses, hoping to get insights that go beyond the usual “here are the pictures I took with the NiCanOrama QRZ – 1066, and here’s what I think of them” that most everybody else is doing.

In the case of the graphs that Erik posted, the equipment required is a razor blade, a light source, a focusing rail, MTF Mapper and/or Imatest, and Excel. As in all my reports, I explain exactly how a reader who wishes to reproduce my results can go about it, either in the post itself, or by reference to an earlier post.

2) The measurement terms are not defined. What is cycles/picture height defined and how is it measured? What does measuring this functional response mean in practical terms?

Measuring MTF50 in cycles/picture height has a long history in digital photography. Try the Imatest site for some background. If you want the paper that introduced most of us to slanted edge MTF testing, it’s here:

http://imagescienceassociates.com/mm5/pubs/26pics2000burns.pdf

If you want the Matlab demonstration code, it’s here:

http://losburns.com/imaging/software/SFRedge/index.htm

MTF50 is a well-known sharpness metric. For a discussion of it and why it’s appropriate, look at Jack Hogan’s explanation:

http://www.strollswithmydog.com/mtf50-perceived-sharpness/

3) Some of the axes for some of the graphs are not labeled, nor are the units of measure for these axes.

Erik pulled the graphs from some of my blog posts. If you read the posts, the axes are explained. In the MTF50 vs subject distance tests, the units are cm, with 0 arbitrary.

4) The histogram data has no error bars. Any measure of means or median has to also provide a measure of variance e.g. SD, Variance or CV. Also, the confidence levels are not stated. There is no way to conclude that the difference in values observed in the histogram plots are statistically significant or not without providing an SD and confidence interval.  The best way to do this would be a one-way ANOVA, and a Tukey HSM pair-wise comparison, reporting p-values for the differences.

I don’t see a histogram in anything that Erik posted. Thank you for the statistics lesson, though.

5) No description of a statistically valid Measurement Systems Analysis was performed, so there is no way to know that the measurement system is fit for purpose for what was being measured, and therefore, that the observed differences are real and not simply the result of sampling error or % contribution by the measurement system. There is no variance components analysis to characterize the part-to-part variance, operator-to-part interaction, operator-to-gage interaction, and the overall gage % contribution to the overall study variance (sums of squares of the overall variance). In essence, no data is provided to demonstrate the measurement system as a whole has sufficient measurement system precision to know any observed differences are real, not due to noise, part to part variability or intrinsic measurement system noise (*all* data sets contain noise, *some* contain signals).

Again, my blog posts are not scientific papers. The results are not statistically significant, to be sure. However, I think they form a useful addendum to the pretty pictures that are the alternative. To my knowledge, no one, not even Roger, is testing cameras and lenses and reporting results to the general public in the way you want them tested and reported.

You have proven yourself skillful in poking holes in the work of others. That’s not difficult. Please consider doing your own testing and reporting the results to all of us. That’s harder, but of much more benefit.

Jim

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2017, 11:31:16 am »

Hi Jim,

I have just upgraded, hmm… downgraded, well let's say cross graded to Windows 10 from Mac OS/X. That has the advantage that I can use MTF Mapper. One feature of MTF Mapper I really appreciate is that it can produce those 10/20/40 lp/mm  (or cy/mm) diagrams Zeiss used to publish.

These figures obviously show system MTF. In this case I have plotted MTF measured on the P45+ (6.8 micron pixel pitch) and the Sony A7rII (4.5 micron pitch).

The diagrams here give some indications of the spread of data. A significant source of error is alignment of sensor and target.

The first plot is with the Sony A7rII and the second one with the P45+. Both probably at f/5.6.

Best regards
Erik



Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2017, 11:36:41 am »

I have just upgraded, hmm… downgraded, well let's say cross graded to Windows 10 from Mac OS/X. That has the advantage that I can use MTF Mapper. One feature of MTF Mapper I really appreciate is that it can produce those 10/20/40 lp/mm  (or cy/mm) diagrams Zeiss used to publish.

These figures obviously show system MTF. In this case I have plotted MTF measured on the P45+ (6.8 micron pixel pitch) and the Sony A7rII (4.5 micron pitch).

Erik, if you're gong to compare sensors of different size, you might want to convert lp/mm to lp/ph.

Jim

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Some good stuff from Jim Kasson
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2017, 12:02:26 pm »

Hi Jim,

As usual, you are absolutely right.

The reason I used lp/mm is that it is the figure used in data published by Zeiss and i wanted to see how close I could get. The input options to MTF mapper in this case are lp/mm.

I could have adjusted the curves to take magnification into account. In that case the numbers would differ but the height of the curves would be comparable.

Anyway, I just wanted to show an interesting aspect of MTF mapper.

Best regards
Erik

Erik, if you're gong to compare sensors of different size, you might want to convert lp/mm to lp/ph.

Jim
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up