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johncustodio

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Z3200 End of Life?
« on: April 27, 2017, 07:21:41 PM »

My 10 year old Z3100 has finally died (carriage belt broke Ė I don't want to try to fix it). About 3 years ago I received a notice from HP that the Z3100 had reached its end of life and would no longer be eligible for a service contract renewal. Fortunately for me, it didn't need any servicing during this out of warranty period. Now I'd like to buy a new Z3200 but am wondering if this product is near its end of life such that service won't be offered on it. I haven't seen any HP notices about end of life for the Z3200. Would I be safe in buying a new one? There still are several resellers selling this printer.
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MHMG

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2017, 10:52:08 AM »

Hi John,

I can't speak to how long HP will support this printer, but I did purchase a Z3200 recently from Professional Marketing Services, Inc ( I have no affiliation with this company):

http://www.proimagingsupplies.com/home.html

The price was hard to pass up, and I wanted direct access to the Z's Vivera pigment ink technology, so that I can make some more direct comparison light fade tests pitting the nearly decade old HP Vivera with Chromata red ink set against the much newer ink sets from Canon and Epson. I also had a personal project in mind - some large format prints, skillfully printed and framed to donate to a local organization which provides day habilitation Services for adults in our community with special needs.  The Center currently has an extraordinary amount of well illuminated blank wall space with no budget for artwork, so my goal is to rectify that situation over the coming year :)

My project has started, and I'm keeping a careful log on costs of equipment, materials, and supplies. I have printed approximately 200 square feet of inked image area to date and am well into a second 44 inch roll, not yet completed. Attached is my amortization graph for the work completed so far. The curve plots the total cost of printer and ink consumed to date (the GO and MBK inks have just been replaced and all other starter inks are near empty) To add media costs to the curve all one needs to do is add the price per square foot for the choice of media. In my case media costs (including adjustments for actual yield)  are running me $1.63 per square foot.

The results surprised me.  The relatively low volume of prints I have already made to date on the Z3200 have already covered the costs I would have incurred if sending the image files out to a high-end service provider (typical pricing of $20/sq.ft) able to print on the fine art media of my choice.  My conclusion is simple: If one has the digital imaging skills and equipment (computer, hard drives, software, etc)  plus the necessary printmaking skills and the space to put the printer,  then bringing the Z3200 in house will pay for itself after just a few 44 inch rolls of fine art media have been printed. For the price I paid for my Z3200, I'm already there after just a few months of ownership, and I'm clearly not running very high print volumes compared to other printmakers.  As such, I wouldn't worry whether a new Z3200 lasts you five or ten years.  Seems like just one year of ownership even for a relatively low volume of large format prints per year is enough to recoup one's investment compared to jobbing the work out to a good service provider :)

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com


« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 10:59:15 AM by MHMG »
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kers

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2017, 10:56:40 AM »

My 10 year old Z3100 has finally died (carriage belt broke – I don't want to try to fix it). About 3 years ago I received a notice from HP that the Z3100 had reached its end of life and would no longer be eligible for a service contract renewal. Fortunately for me, it didn't need any servicing during this out of warranty period. Now I'd like to buy a new Z3200 but am wondering if this product is near its end of life such that service won't be offered on it. I haven't seen any HP notices about end of life for the Z3200. Would I be safe in buying a new one? There still are several resellers selling this printer.

I am with you - have a Z3100- still works as day1
I changed the cariagebelt some years ago- took me one day and the belt 40$.
So you could give it a try...
6 new printheads = 300$= new printer

PS
in ten years of gentle use ( photographer) i had about  to change 3-6 printheads ...
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 11:30:15 AM by kers »
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2017, 11:13:33 AM »

Hi John,

I can't speak to how long HP will support this printer, but I did purchase a Z3200 recently from Professional Marketing Services, Inc ( I have no affiliation with this company):

http://www.proimagingsupplies.com/home.html

The price was hard to pass up, and I wanted direct access to the Z's Vivera pigment ink technology, so that I can make some more direct comparison light fade tests pitting the nearly decade old HP Vivera with Chromata red ink set against the much newer ink sets from Canon and Epson. I also had a personal project in mind - some large format prints, skillfully printed and framed to donate to a local organization which provides day habilitation Services for adults in our community with special needs.  The Center currently has an extraordinary amount of well illuminated blank wall space with no budget for artwork, so my goal is to rectify that situation over the coming year :)

My project has started, and I'm keeping a careful log on costs of equipment, materials, and supplies. I have printed approximately 200 square feet of inked image area to date and am well into a second 44 inch roll, not yet completed. Attached is my amortization graph for the work completed so far. The curve plots the total cost of printer and ink consumed to date (the GO and MBK inks have just been replaced and all other starter inks are near empty) To add media costs to the curve all one needs to do is add the price per square foot for the choice of media. In my case media costs (including adjustments for actual yield)  are running me $1.63 per square foot.

The results surprised me.  The relatively low volume of prints I have already made to date on the Z3200 have already covered the costs I would have incurred if sending the image files out to a high-end service provider (typical pricing of $20/sq.ft) able to print on the fine art media of my choice.  My conclusion is simple: If one has the digital imaging skills and equipment (computer, hard drives, software, etc)  plus the necessary printmaking skills and the space to put the printer,  then bringing the Z3200 in house will pay for itself after just a few 44 inch rolls of fine art media have been printed. For the price I paid for my Z3200, I'm already there after just a few months of ownership, and I'm clearly not running very high print volumes compared to other printmakers.  As such, I wouldn't worry whether a new Z3200 lasts you five or ten years.  Seems like just one year of ownership even for a relatively low volume of large format prints per year is enough to recoup one's investment compared to jobbing the work out to a good service provider :)

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Mark,

Never got the discipline to do the bookkeeping on that level but it confirms what I kept in my wallet after I switched from Epsons to HPs. When the printing volume increases, buy 300ml 772 carts and put the chip cap of the 70 carts on them, reduces ink price even more. Say yellow, light grey, light magenta, matte black, the ones that empty the fastest in my shop.

Maintenance is low, repair doable with some patience.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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MHMG

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2017, 01:38:36 PM »


.... When the printing volume increases, buy 300ml 772 carts and put the chip cap of the 70 carts on them, reduces ink price even more. Say yellow, light grey, light magenta, matte black, the ones that empty the fastest in my shop.

Maintenance is low, repair doable with some patience.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

Hi Ernst, out of curiosity I just did a trendline projection on the data assuming I go through two more complete sets of 130ml carts to reach 1000 sq. ft. I think that's a reasonable approximation based on ink usage to date. The capital equipment and total cost of ink used per sq. ft of printed image area is projected to be approximately $4 per square foot. Add in my media costs, and I should still be less than $6 per square foot (using the bigger carts as you suggest will drive costs down even further). Total number of 44 inch rolls completed with yield factored in will be about 8 rolls to produce 1000 square feet of finished product.  So at that point, assuming no out of warranty repairs, my total outlay for printing all eight rolls will come to about $5700 compared to paying a professional service provider approximately $20K for the same amount of work.  And as an added bonus, I will still own the printer ;D  My print output is indeed picking up as I move more of my other work from my Canon iPF8300 to the Z3200 , so I expect to go through 8 rolls in about a year, but maybe 1.5 years at the outside.  Owning the Z will have saved nearly $15K during that time frame.

As for my labor costs, well the bulk of it is in the meticulous image editing work necessary to achieve a print-ready file, and I have never jobbed that step of my personal image making out to a lab. Moreover, I'm pretty sure the $20 per sq. ft. figure I have used to estimate pro printing services does not include that level of care at the image preparation step.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 01:56:27 PM by MHMG »
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johncustodio

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2017, 03:01:31 PM »

Mark,
Thanks for chiming in. I agree about the economies of the Z printers. I had my 3100 for 10 years. I just got a call from an HP rep who said that the Z3200 is still being produced and that HP would support the printer for 5 years after production ceased, a date in the future that hasn't been determined yet.
-John
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MHMG

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2017, 03:40:40 PM »

Mark,
Thanks for chiming in. I agree about the economies of the Z printers. I had my 3100 for 10 years. I just got a call from an HP rep who said that the Z3200 is still being produced and that HP would support the printer for 5 years after production ceased, a date in the future that hasn't been determined yet.
-John

I had heard the 5 year figure from more than one source, but I only heard it in the context of the ink supply. Glad to hear it's also for printer parts, and I suppose if one keeps extending the warranty, HP may let us do that as well for all five years.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 03:48:19 PM by MHMG »
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johncustodio

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2017, 08:46:26 PM »

Yeah, I got the impression from the HP rep that he wasn't just talking about ink. He said HP would support the printer for 5 years which should mean they would be able to service it for that long, whether it was under a service contract or by you paying for it. I should call him back just to check to see if service contracts could be extended that long. With my Z3100, I just kept extending the service contract. The initial contract was for 3 years I think, then I did one year extensions every year after that. About 3 years ago I got a notice from HP saying that after a certain date service contracts would no longer be available, but I think they would still service it for a fee like $1,000. I didn't want to pay that which was about 1/3rd the cost of a new printer and decided that if it ever failed, I would just buy a new 3200. It actually lasted 3 years before the carriage belt broke.
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deanwork

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2017, 05:56:41 PM »

My z3100 is 10 years old and working same as ever and I'm seriously thinking about buying a z3200 to back it up in case they are discontinued. I've been trying to find out more about the new 44 inch Canons, especially the longevity of the new Lucia ink set but nothing has been published that I can find. They are much faster than the z .


quote author=johncustodio link=topic=117672.msg974719#msg974719 date=1493426786]
Yeah, I got the impression from the HP rep that he wasn't just talking about ink. He said HP would support the printer for 5 years which should mean they would be able to service it for that long, whether it was under a service contract or by you paying for it. I should call him back just to check to see if service contracts could be extended that long. With my Z3100, I just kept extending the service contract. The initial contract was for 3 years I think, then I did one year extensions every year after that. About 3 years ago I got a notice from HP saying that after a certain date service contracts would no longer be available, but I think they would still service it for a fee like $1,000. I didn't want to pay that which was about 1/3rd the cost of a new printer and decided that if it ever failed, I would just buy a new 3200. It actually lasted 3 years before the carriage belt broke.
[/quote]
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MHMG

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2017, 06:41:02 PM »

My z3100 is 10 years old and working same as ever and I'm seriously thinking about buying a z3200 to back it up in case they are discontinued. I've been trying to find out more about the new 44 inch Canons, especially the longevity of the new Lucia ink set but nothing has been published that I can find. They are much faster than the z .


Canon's management really dropped the ball on the longevity claims for the new Lucia Pro 11 ink set. Or, perhaps, they didn't. Canon's management may have made a deliberate calculation that very few sales will be lost by ignoring the longevity question. After all, the new printers use a pigmented ink set. Canon has probably done customer surveys which suggest that's all one needs to know to sell "archival properties" in today's market.  In any case, Aardenburg Imaging & Archives will independently publish some results for this new Canon ink set in the latter part of 2017.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 06:47:32 PM by MHMG »
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deanwork

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2017, 06:13:31 PM »

How are the new Lucias looking right now Mark in relation to the previous set? Wilhelm  still hasn't even published his results on the new Epson inks either, just some preliminary talk that doesn't add up to a lot.


uote author=MHMG link=topic=117672.msg974819#msg974819 date=1493505662]
Canon's management really dropped the ball on the longevity claims for the new Lucia Pro 11 ink set. Or, perhaps, they didn't. Canon's management may have made a deliberate calculation that very few sales will be lost by ignoring the longevity question. After all, the new printers use a pigmented ink set. Canon has probably done customer surveys which suggest that's all one needs to know to sell "archival properties" in today's market.  In any case, Aardenburg Imaging & Archives will independently publish some results for this new Canon ink set in the latter part of 2017.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
[/quote]
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MHMG

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2017, 08:31:00 PM »

How are the new Lucias looking right now Mark in relation to the previous set? Wilhelm  still hasn't even published his results on the new Epson inks either, just some preliminary talk that doesn't add up to a lot.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

In previous years I have always posted very soon after any and all test results became available. However, cost cutting measures this year mean Aardenburg will have to publish less frequently from now on. The tests have only reached the 20 megalux hour mark with 30 megalux hours due very soon, but I don't want to read too much into the Aardenburg test results just yet. We will have better trend lines at the 50-60 hour mark which will occur later this year. I do intend to publish at that time.

That said, the data I have evaluated so far suggest Canon did not take the opportunity with the Lucia Pro 11 ink set to make any longevity improvements. In fact, it may not be quite as good as the older Lucia EX set which if it bears out in further testing testing would be consistent with Canon's own claims to date:  see https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=ART164634&actp=RSS

Canon originally included these claims in the printer spec sheets, then mysteriously removed them from the printer spec sheets and buried them pretty deep at the URL listed above.  The data behind these claims appears to have originated from internal testing at Canon, not any independent lab, but taken at face value when compared to earlier WIR test scores for older LUCIA ink sets, Canon's own ratings for Pro Luster and Platinum papers are very conservative and also suggest a step backwards in longevity compared to earlier LUCIA ink sets. My 20 megalux hour test results don't give me any reason to "hope it ain't so", but again, it's just too early in testing to draw any definitive conclusions.

Some trade show sources reported that Canon did finally contract with WIR to test the new Lucia Pro ink set with test results due to be released last fall, but I don't see the slightest indication on the WIR website that this was true or that any tests will be forthcoming any time soon at WIR.  Hence, my earlier comment that Canon management may have simply decided in the absence of any image longevity improvements, new printer sales will be better served by a low key marketing approach to print longevity ratings.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 08:37:59 PM by MHMG »
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deanwork

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2017, 09:22:02 PM »

Thanks Mark. I read those internal results posted on their site as well and brought it up at the time. We were discussing it here and a week later the posting was removed. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we find out that they had them tested before release ( which would be the practical way of doing things) and decided not to make the results public. If the figures are going backward why would they. It certainly wouldn't be the first time a company did this ( Lyson ).

Their gamut was great in the original ex inks so the whole thing doesn't make any sense to me. But then a lot of things in this industry mystify me. I would be a big deal to me if I wanted a invest in their soon to be released 60 printer.

I wonder about the Epson yellow as well.




quote author=MHMG link=topic=117672.msg974963#msg974963 date=1493598660]
In previous years I have always posted very soon after any and all test results became available. However, cost cutting measures this year mean Aardenburg will have to publish less frequently from now on. The tests have only reached the 20 megalux hour mark with 30 megalux hours due very soon, but I don't want to read too much into the Aardenburg test results just yet. We will have better trend lines at the 50-60 hour mark which will occur later this year. I do intend to publish at that time.

That said, the data I have evaluated so far suggest Canon did not take the opportunity with the Lucia Pro 11 ink set to make any longevity improvements. In fact, it may not be quite as good as the older Lucia EX set which if it bears out in further testing testing would be consistent with Canon's own claims to date:  see https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=ART164634&actp=RSS

Canon originally included these claims in the printer spec sheets, then mysteriously removed them from the printer spec sheets and buried them pretty deep at the URL listed above.  The data behind these claims appears to have originated from internal testing at Canon, not any independent lab, but taken at face value when compared to earlier WIR test scores for older LUCIA ink sets, Canon's own ratings for Pro Luster and Platinum papers are very conservative and also suggest a step backwards in longevity compared to earlier LUCIA ink sets. My 20 megalux hour test results don't give me any reason to "hope it ain't so", but again, it's just too early in testing to draw any definitive conclusions.

Some trade show sources reported that Canon did finally contract with WIR to test the new Lucia Pro ink set with test results due to be released last fall, but I don't see the slightest indication on the WIR website that this was true or that any tests will be forthcoming any time soon at WIR.  Hence, my earlier comment that Canon management may have simply decided in the absence of any image longevity improvements, new printer sales will be better served by a low key marketing approach to print longevity ratings.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
[/quote]
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2017, 08:18:07 PM »

buy 300ml 772 carts and put the chip cap of the 70 carts on them, reduces ink price even more. Say yellow, light grey, light magenta, matte black, the ones that empty the fastest in my shop

It appears the ink price would be about 30% cheaper with this mod.  Ernst, can you provide details on how this is done?
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2017, 03:43:30 AM »

It appears the ink price would be about 30% cheaper with this mod.  Ernst, can you provide details on how this is done?

Empty the 130ml cart in printing and cut the label at the slit between container and cap that holds the chip. Pull the cap off. The new 300ml cart has the same cap but a chip with different firmware. So take the cap off on that cart and put the one of the 120 ml on it. 4 small tapes to hold it. Weight new is 420 grams, weight empty is 120grams, anything in between means there still is ink in the cart. The printer will tell that it is near its end of ink content all the time. The ink bay's lid can not be fully closed.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2017, 11:23:24 AM »

Thanks Ernst.
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LenR

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2017, 09:04:59 AM »

Last month I was told by HP Support that they were no longer supporting (offering service contracts for) Rev A Z3200's.
Does anyone know what Rev. the 3200 is currently?
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2017, 01:41:10 PM »

Last month I was told by HP Support that they were no longer supporting (offering service contracts for) Rev A Z3200's.
Does anyone know what Rev. the 3200 is currently?

Rev A is no longer manufactured and has not been for many years. 
Only machines being currently manufactured are Z3200 ps Rev B Models.

HP will support Z3200ps models with parts, inks and service minimally 5 years after end of manufacture.
They are still making them.

deanwork

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2017, 09:14:16 PM »


I'm getting ready to buy another Z in a week or two. Mark, did that place in Phoenix give you a good new one. Their price is apparently $500.00 less than everyone else I've seen. But I really don't trust this Pro Marketing outfit at all. They totally screwed me on a used Howtek drum scanner 12 years ago and it cost me nothing but grief. Then I found out Mark Savoia went through the exact same thing I did with a different drum scanner. Both of us were stuck with very heavy pieces of junk before it was over with and they were totally arrogant about it. Real incompetent jerks. Like cheap used car salesmen lying about everything. But for me $500.00 is a lot of money. And it should have the Hp warranty.  At any rate I'm going to buy one somewhere. I don't ever want to be without one. My Z3100 is still working great on windows 10 and the software is totally normal. I just want the chromatic red and have extended warranty for several years.      John



quote author=Mark Lindquist link=topic=117672.msg976118#msg976118 date=1494265270]
Rev A is no longer manufactured and has not been for many years. 
Only machines being currently manufactured are Z3200 ps Rev B Models.

HP will support Z3200ps models with parts, inks and service minimally 5 years after end of manufacture.
They are still making them.
[/quote]
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: Z3200 End of Life?
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2017, 12:48:01 AM »

I'm getting ready to buy another Z in a week or two. Mark, did that place in Phoenix give you a good new one. Their price is apparently $500.00 less than everyone else I've seen. But I really don't trust this Pro Marketing outfit at all. They totally screwed me on a used Howtek drum scanner 12 years ago and it cost me nothing but grief. Then I found out Mark Savoia went through the exact same thing I did with a different drum scanner. Both of us were stuck with very heavy pieces of junk before it was over with and they were totally arrogant about it. Real incompetent jerks. Like cheap used car salesmen lying about everything. But for me $500.00 is a lot of money. And it should have the Hp warranty.  At any rate I'm going to buy one somewhere. I don't ever want to be without one. My Z3100 is still working great on windows 10 and the software is totally normal. I just want the chromatic red and have extended warranty for several years.      John 
Quote

Sorry to hear you have had some problems John.  I've had good experience with them and my Z3200ps 44' printer is working fine.  I know that some folks have had software issues, but that is the way it goes with HP lately.  I know how important the Z is to you.  It's the same with me.  I have 2 44"ps, 1 3100 44" and a 24" 3200 so I'm fairly well covered.  I'm printing on my most recent Z3200ps bought from pro imaging and all is great.  It is fantastic using custom 1720 patch target ICC profiles made in the printer (thanks to Geraldo Garcia for his tutorial) and I've had no significant issues.
Regardless of where you buy, it is just as you say - doesn't matter where, it just matters about getting one with extended warranty before they end manufacturing.  I went with pro imaging before the end of last year as it made sense for tax purposes.  Ted at pro imaging was super nice, helpful, and supportive, so I can only report a good experience with them.  Good luck finding one.  If you want a 5 year care pack, it might be a good idea to jump on it sooner than later.  That's what I did. 

Mark
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