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Author Topic: Skepticism about Climate Change  (Read 213759 times)

pegelli

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #980 on: September 12, 2017, 02:48:47 am »

Assuming that is true, how many of his supporters dared to go against the church, which provided both the carrot (financing) and stick (inquisition)? Exactly the same as today. The church of political correctness provides financing to reward and excommunication for the infidels.
I think it's more to the contrary, the science is probably right but since it doesn't suit the Trumpster's church' dogma's the scientists are losing funding and are excommunicated by using fake news. Just like the old days.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #981 on: September 12, 2017, 06:34:59 am »

I think it's more to the contrary, the science is probably right but since it doesn't suit the Trumpster's church' dogma's the scientists are losing funding and are excommunicated by using fake news. Just like the old days.

Exactly what is happening with some 'governments'. Pleasing the electorate, in stead of doing what is better/best for all citizens, by chasing known to be false electoral dogmas. Defunding science, hiding/removing data and reports from public websites, instructing to avoid scientifically common terms like 'Climate Change', spreading of fake news/alternative facts, discrediting the media, suggestions for changing education to promote creationism versus evolution, nurturing science denial, etc., etc.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 07:14:05 am by BartvanderWolf »
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mecrox

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #982 on: September 12, 2017, 07:43:14 am »

Exactly what is happening with some 'governments'. Pleasing the electorate, in stead of doing what is better/best for all citizens, by chasing known to be false electoral dogmas. Defunding science, hiding/removing data and reports from public websites, instructing to avoid scientifically common terms like 'Climate Change', spreading of fake news/alternative facts, discrediting the media, suggestions for changing education to promote creationism versus evolution, nurturing science denial, etc., etc.

Cheers,
Bart

Well, no, these fellows don't discredit all the media since they need it to spread their lies. They do it by polarizing opinion, i.e. by killing off balance and objectivity. For us or against us. And, sigh, usually it turns out that a money trail leads back to some big corporations or foreign powers. All a story as old as the hills. The ancient Greek custom of ostracism has quite a lot to recommended it. This wasn't really about banishing enemies of the state. It was about banishing points of view so divisive that they were likely to lead to civil war or unrest unless taken off the agenda. Time was allowed to apply some healing while the ostracised one and his crazy ideas passed the time in a far-away land. Perhaps, say, ten years on a beach in West Africa or Patagonia, with no internet access, would be just the ticket for Trump and his pals. He could spend the time building the Trump Nowhere, a hotel nowhere for nobody where seaweed takes the place of marbling.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 07:46:16 am by mecrox »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #983 on: September 12, 2017, 08:53:45 am »

I think it's more to the contrary, the science is probably right but since it doesn't suit the Trumpster's church' dogma's the scientists are losing funding and are excommunicated by using fake news. Just like the old days.

You mean Obama days? I agree. You are just getting a taste of your own medicine. The difference is that Obama is a smooth, eloquent operator, so you didn't notice. But back to science: it is the law of action and reaction: you pushed the pendulum too far (i.e., too left).

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #984 on: September 12, 2017, 09:39:48 am »

Nothing makes me laugh harder than the argument that climate change scientists are doing it for the money! That they're towing the "party line" to get those big dollar research grants. It's a scream really, you should do stand-up.

The second-most fun thing is to bring up Obama and how supposedly liberals thought they were living in Nirvana until Trump. Really, it's hilarious. As if this is an issue of political parties. Let it go guys, Obama is gone, the election is over. "Them dang hippies" lost the election, there is no need to rant and rave anymore, maybe you should switch to decaf.

The third most funny thing is how climate change scientists are accused of being religious about the topic of global warming. The irony is beyond funny.

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pegelli

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #985 on: September 12, 2017, 10:29:33 am »

you pushed the pendulum too far (i.e., too left).
Nonsense Slobodan. I didn't push any pendulum and for sure not to the left, I'm just against a bonehead like Trump. By far not everybody who is against Trump is "left".
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 12:01:30 pm by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #986 on: September 12, 2017, 12:21:54 pm »

Nonsense Slobodan. I didn't push any pendulum and for sure not to the left, I'm just against a bonehead like Trump. By far not everybody who is against Trump is "left".

I assume you heard of the rhetorical "you," not you "you"?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #987 on: September 12, 2017, 12:25:02 pm »

Nobody is accusing scientists of being religious. I was referring to laymen who treat science as a new religion.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #988 on: September 12, 2017, 12:26:42 pm »

Nobody is accusing scientists of being religious. I was referring to laymen who threat science as a new religion.

There are none. 

Science is provable, repeatable fact.  Religion is precisely the opposite.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #989 on: September 12, 2017, 12:29:08 pm »

Oh, dear Lord! I rest my case.

pegelli

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #990 on: September 12, 2017, 01:40:55 pm »

I assume you heard of the rhetorical "you," not you "you"?
Then don't quote my post, to me that looks like you're adressing me. I'm not a mind-reader.
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pieter, aka pegelli

pegelli

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #991 on: September 12, 2017, 01:45:36 pm »

Nobody is accusing scientists of being religious. I was referring to laymen who treat science as a new religion.
And some are accusing the US government acting like a religious sect because they deny proven facts, just like the church did in the times of Galileo Galilei.
Human activity is changing the climate. Whether that's good, bad or indifferent is a different discussion.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #992 on: September 12, 2017, 03:37:18 pm »

And some are accusing the US government acting like a religious sect because they deny proven facts, just like the church did in the times of Galileo Galilei.
Human activity is changing the climate. Whether that's good, bad or indifferent is a different discussion.

Many people are turned off because of the hypocrisy.  They see a guy like Al Gore who made over $100 million dollars off of global warming.  Yet he flies around in his own jets burning thousands of gallons of fuel telling everyone they have to cut back on their carbon footprint. 

The last couple of days, I saw an ad on TV for an upcoming "documentary" showing how the world is coming to end because of global warming. (Maybe someone can post the link to the show's advertisement; I can't find it.")  The ad showed the Statue of Liberty lying on its side, buildings and cities burning down, etc.  Pure hyperbole.  The escalation of the damages are pure nonsense. Just to scare people and sell their program.  This turns people off because they feel like they're getting conned.  Every documentary only discusses the negative, never any of the positives like increasing arable lands, increase food production, more livable land for all species as colder clime areas warm up to support vegetation and animal species and people, etc. 

Many of the people who support global warming are quite frankly fanatics.  There's no measure of balance in their approach.  Their attitude pushes people away. 

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #993 on: September 12, 2017, 05:49:58 pm »

Many people are turned off because of the hypocrisy.  They see a guy like Al Gore who made over $100 million dollars off of global warming.  Yet he flies around in his own jets burning thousands of gallons of fuel telling everyone they have to cut back on their carbon footprint.

I have no axe to grind when it comes to Gore, I've simply never paid much attention to him, never been on my radar, and I haven't read his book(s), or seen any of his films (I assume there have been films). Even if every word you say about Gore is true, what does it have to do with anything?

There is a Canadian scientist David Suzuki, who has been active in environmentalism since the early 1970s, maybe even earlier. One of the criticisms of him is that he owns a ca. $2 million house in Vancouver. What happened is that he bought the family house there in the 1970s when he was a prof at U.B.C. and like all real estate in the greater Vancouver, its value has skyrocketed. He has mostly done the wise thing and simply ignored those moronic criticisms.

Yeah, so maybe Gore ain't perfect. So what. Is that relevant to anything? Compare his jet's footprint to that of every professional baseball, football, hockey or basketball teams' flights several times per week during their respective seasons. How many decimal places do we need to get its relative contribution? And that's just American pro sports. Sheesh, after this many pages, I'd hope for something more cogent.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #994 on: September 12, 2017, 06:04:33 pm »

... Compare his jet's footprint to that of every professional baseball, football, hockey or basketball teams' flights several times per week...

Except those guys do not peddle bogus theories and bug others about their carbon footprint.

Then again:

"Al Gore climate change sequel bombs at box office"

http://thehill.com/homenews/media/345646-al-gore-climate-change-sequel-bombs-at-box-office

Looks like his "inconvenient truth" has become an inconvenient flop. Ultimately all fads fade.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #995 on: September 12, 2017, 07:16:27 pm »

Oh, dear Lord! I rest my case.

Would you be so kind as to explain that cryptic comment?
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Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #996 on: September 12, 2017, 08:02:59 pm »

Nothing makes me laugh harder than the argument that climate change scientists are doing it for the money! That they're towing the "party line" to get those big dollar research grants. It's a scream really, you should do stand-up.

Nothing amazes me more than the failure of most people to understand the fundamental requirements for human existence and human activities.

Just as the presence of CO2 in the atmosphere is fundamental to the growth of all plants, money is a fundamental requirement, either directly or indirectly, for all human activity in a modern society.

I emphasize the term 'modern society', because obviously a 'hunter gatherer' society (perhaps some lost tribe, deep in the Amazon jungle} does not need money.
Even a very basic activity, such as walking down the street, requires money; the money needed to buy the food to give the person the energy to walk. Even if the person walking down the street is a homeless beggar, presumably somebody has donated food to keep him alive, and such food has been bought with money.

Two or three hundred years ago and beyond, scientists tended to fund their own research. It still required money, but they were wealthy and didn't need government grants. The scientific projects were also much simpler in those days.

Nowadays, with the proliferation of so many disciplines of science, the need for well-equipped laboratories, the latest, very expensive, sophisticated instruments, and of course, the money required to pay the basic salaries of the many scientists involved in any major research project, either government or corporate funding is essential.

No funding for climate research means no research. It's laughable to argue that the scientists working in government-funded Climate Research centres are not aware of this fact, or don't even care if the research centres are closed down because some politicians might think 'the science is settled'.  ;)
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #997 on: September 12, 2017, 08:27:51 pm »

Okay, Ray. WE GET IT. 
Yes. C02 is beneficial in small quantities to plant growth.  Get over it.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #998 on: September 12, 2017, 08:59:26 pm »

Okay, Ray. WE GET IT. 
Yes. C02 is beneficial in small quantities to plant growth.  Get over it.

He won't, because he doesn't recognize that it also benefits the growth of weeds, and that the net effect is that droughts will kill more crops than the CO2 could add to biomass (and we often do not eat the leafs (but rather the seeds/tubers/roots/fruits/etc.). Also, more (non-indigenous) insects will damage a.o. the crops (and increased use of insecticides will pollute the drinking water/aquifers), and the reduced evaporation of plants at elevated CO2 levels will increase temperature further, and also increases erosion and run-offs (which will also change marine biotopes). The increased precipitation from a warming atmosphere will also cause local erosion and runoffs, and huge economic and human damage.

It's the simpleton's view that if only one aspect of elevated CO2 levels will benefit the growth of biomass, it means it's a good thing without looking at all the other negative effects. Real scientists have a somewhat broader perspective and they warn against the negative balance of multiple/cumulative effects caused by artificially elevated global CO2 levels.

Cheers,
Bart
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Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #999 on: September 12, 2017, 09:30:25 pm »

Okay, Ray. WE GET IT. 
Yes. C02 is beneficial in small quantities to plant growth.  Get over it.

Obviously you don't get it, Peter. Co2 in small quantities is not just beneficial to plant growth, but absolutely essential for any plant growth to take place.

What the alarmists seem to be in denial about, is that significantly greater levels of CO2, than currently exist in the atmosphere, will continue to be beneficial for plants, will increase plant growth in general, whether forests or food crops, and will generally contribute to a 'greening' of the planet, which is a good thing.
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