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Author Topic: Skepticism about Climate Change  (Read 35255 times)

Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #660 on: July 16, 2017, 11:43:07 PM »

So what is the basis of your expertise on climate, Ray?  Should you stick to what you know?  The gentlemen in question seems infinitely more qualified than anyone posting here.
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Phil Brown

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #661 on: July 16, 2017, 11:52:27 PM »

So what is the basis of your expertise on climate, Ray?  Should you stick to what you know?  The gentlemen in question seems infinitely more qualified than anyone posting here.
Phil the link Ray posted had an essay by Jim Steele, Director emeritus Sierra Nevada Field Campus, San Francisco State University and author of Landscapes & Cycles: An Environmentalist’s Journey to Climate Skepticism, an expert on the Great Barrier Reef.  He, not Ray, gave important information disputing Veron's conclusions.  Maybe you missed the link.
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Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #662 on: July 17, 2017, 12:45:29 AM »

But when someone else, considered THE expert on the GBR gives an opinion, Ray dismisses it.  So what's Ray's expertise to rate one expert over another?

Ray's expert has expert has a Master's degree in environmental biology - not even a PhD.  Ray seems to think that if you don't have expertise in climatology as a discipline you shouldn't have a view on this.  But the expert quoted by Bart has training in coral taxonomy, which is far more related to the GBR than Ray's expert.  So, again, when playing experts at 20 paces, what's Ray's qualification to say his is better (when, looking at the stats his isn't) other than he likes what he says?

Charlie (John) Vernon, on the other hand:

Veron has three higher degrees in different fields. He was the chief scientist at the Australian Institute of Marine Science, and he has many professional awards including the Scientific Diving Lifetime Achievement Award (American Academy of Underwater Sciences), the Darwin Medal (International Society of Reef Studies) and the Silver Jubilee Pin (Australian Marine Sciences Association). He has named about 20% of reef corals and built a taxonomic framework for corals that is used throughout the world. He founded the Orpheus Island Marine Station. He discovered and delineated the Coral Triangle. He introduced the concept of reticulate evolution to the marine world.
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Phil Brown

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #663 on: July 17, 2017, 07:17:47 AM »

He certainly can say as an coral reef expert that GBR is dying because he believes that warning water is killing it.   But he's pushing climate change agenda as well.   And he's not an expert in that field.   

But the issue I was pointing out is that species adapt or move to more productive places as local conditions worsen   That goes for corals, polar bears, man,  and all other species.
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Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #664 on: July 17, 2017, 03:10:04 PM »

How is it you can speak with authority on climate change but he can't?  The gentleman in question is infinitely more qualified than you.
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Phil Brown

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #665 on: July 17, 2017, 03:28:56 PM »

How is it you can speak with authority on climate change but he can't?  The gentleman in question is infinitely more qualified than you.
Phil,  there's nothing stopping him from professing his views on climate change.   But he's trading off his knowledge and degrees on coral reefs to predict the future of the world's climate,  a science he knows little about.   
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #666 on: July 17, 2017, 03:38:35 PM »

He certainly can say as an coral reef expert that GBR is dying because he believes that warning water is killing it.

Alan, the man is a scientist. He doesn't 'believe' but he observes, draws up a hypothesis and puts it up for peer review. This results in factual knowledge. As for observing, I've read the papers (don't know if I can find them again, but even if I could they would probably not convince you anyway) about tests that have been done in a laboratory setting which demonstrates that (just like in actual practice), the micro algae leave the Coral polyps when the temperature is raised, and the acidity of the water increases from absorbing CO2. This robs the polyps of their most important food source and weakens them so that they are an easy victim for infections.

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But he's pushing climate change agenda as well.

He has no climate change agenda, but he does connect the dots between his observations of coral bleaching and increasing water temperature and ocean acidification (also taking in account the effects of runoffs and water circulation).

Quote
But the issue I was pointing out is that species adapt or move to more productive places as local conditions worsen   That goes for corals, polar bears, man,  and all other species.

And some are decimated or go extinct, which can be a problem if they have a key role in supporting a biotope.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 03:41:50 PM by BartvanderWolf »
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Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #667 on: July 17, 2017, 06:02:02 PM »

Phil,  there's nothing stopping him from professing his views on climate change.   But he's trading off his knowledge and degrees on coral reefs to predict the future of the world's climate,  a science he knows little about.

And you're trading off your knowledge of what?  The man has vastly, basically infinitely, more knowledge about climate and the science of it than you do.
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Phil Brown

budjames

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #668 on: July 17, 2017, 06:05:48 PM »

There were four ice ages before man was on the planet. So, I guess that climate changes will happen whether or not we are here.

Bud
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Bud James
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Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #669 on: July 17, 2017, 08:49:57 PM »

There were four ice ages before man was on the planet. So, I guess that climate changes will happen whether or not we are here.

The query is relating to man-made change which can be controlled.
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Phil Brown

JKoerner007

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #670 on: July 17, 2017, 09:55:48 PM »

There were four ice ages before man was on the planet. So, I guess that climate changes will happen whether or not we are here.
Bud

Wouldn't naturally-occurring ice ages be the antitheses of human-caused global warming? :o

JKoerner007

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #671 on: July 17, 2017, 09:57:21 PM »

Phil,  there's nothing stopping him from professing his views on climate change.   But he's trading off his knowledge and degrees on coral reefs to predict the future of the world's climate,  a science he knows little about.

Alan, not quite sure what pathology you suffer from, to continuously respond on a subject you (clearly) know nothing about, but it's clear your goal isn't to learn anything ... only to continuously justify the status quo, ad nausuem, regardless of the cost.

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #672 on: July 17, 2017, 10:37:16 PM »

Alan, not quite sure what pathology you suffer from, to continuously respond on a subject you (clearly) know nothing about, but it's clear your goal isn't to learn anything ... only to continuously justify the status quo, ad nausuem, regardless of the cost.
Thanks for lowering yourself to insult me for thinking I'm crazy for having an opinion that you disagree with.  I didn't know I needed a PhD to post my opinion in the forums without being called nuts.  If we all did, it would be dead around here.   

While you take Veron for granted because you and he support the theory of Climate Change, I'm more open to other hypotheses.  The one that Ray posted implicated a lowering of sea water accounting for coral bleaching has interesting possibilities.  I'm not smart enough to know if that theory or Veron is correct, or neither, or both or some other reason.  Time will tell.  At least I'm keeping an open mind about it which is the most important thing you can do with science.  You seemed to have concluded everything you believe is fact forever and have developed a closed mind.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/04/05/falling-sea-level-the-critical-factor-in-2016-great-barrier-reef-bleaching/
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JKoerner007

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #673 on: July 17, 2017, 10:45:53 PM »

Thanks for lowering yourself to insult me for thinking I'm crazy for having an opinion that you disagree with.  I didn't know I needed a PhD to post my opinion in the forums without being called nuts.  If we all did, it would be dead around here.

Didn't insult you; only pointed out your (baseless) fixation of defending the status quo ... over and over and over again ... which has gone on tirelessly forever ... on a subject you know nothing about.



While you take Veron for granted because you and he support the theory of Climate Change, I'm more open to other hypotheses. The one that Ray posted implicated a lowering of sea water accounting for coral bleaching has interesting possibilities.

You are, in fact, not open to anything at all.

Over 98% of degreed scientists are convinced climate change is real, are virtually unanimous about the subject, and agree it is the single-most important issue we humans have to face (along with human overpopulation).

And yet you quote "Ray" to keep talking :o

If you truly were "open" you would be re-evaluating your convictions based on the overwhelming consensus against your beliefs.

Instead, you cling the the less-than-2% (or other completely ignorant individuals) as support to keep droning on.

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #674 on: July 17, 2017, 11:04:44 PM »

Didn't insult you; only pointed out your (baseless) fixation of defending the status quo ... over and over and over again ... which has gone on tirelessly forever ... on a subject you know nothing about.



You are, in fact, not open to anything at all.

Over 98% of degreed scientists are convinced climate change is real, are virtually unanimous about the subject, and agree it is the single-most important issue we humans have to face (along with human overpopulation).

And yet you quote "Ray" to keep talking :o

If you truly were "open" you would be re-evaluating your convictions based on the overwhelming consensus against your beliefs.

Instead, you cling the the less-than-2% (or other completely ignorant individuals) as support to keep droning on.
Gee, that's interesting.  I have the same opinion of you.  That you're stuck in your beliefs and won't keep an open mind.  By the way, the article I linked to has to do with why coral is bleaching, not climate change.  Maybe you should have read it before commenting. 

Unfortunately, climate change supporters only talk about the negative aspects because they have an agenda of pushing economic programs to benefit certain groups of people.  These include the researchers themselves with grants for research, poor countries who will get monetary transfers from rich nations, and clean energy manufacturers who will benefit by government regulations at the cost of the poor schnook middle class taxpayer who winds up paying for it all.

Additionally, my theory about climate change mainly hinges on that it's effect are good and bad and has occurred throughout history.  I guess you haven't read my posts.  That even if it is warming up a couple of degrees, whether caused by man or not, it will be good and bad depending on where you live, or for that matter where corals live or can live.  Coral will die in areas that get too hot and start growing in areas that now will warm up.  Life adapts.  Do you dispute that theory?  You know that theory was developed by Charles Darwin.  You've heard of him, I hope.  What do you think?  I'm willing to listen to your ideas about that. 

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JKoerner007

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #675 on: July 17, 2017, 11:20:58 PM »

Gee, that's interesting.  I have the same opinion of you.  That you're stuck in your beliefs and won't keep an open mind.  By the way, the article I linked to has to do with why coral is bleaching, not climate change.  Maybe you should have read it before commenting.

We disagree. And that's okay.



Unfortunately, climate change supporters only talk about the negative aspects because they have an agenda of pushing economic programs to benefit certain groups of people.  These include the researchers themselves with grants for research, poor countries who will get monetary transfers from rich nations, and clean energy manufacturers who will benefit by government regulations at the cost of the poor schnook middle class taxpayer who winds up paying for it all.

I don't even know where to begin with this nonsense.

Climate change supporters are the highest-educated people of the world, whose goal is the truth and to protect our planet.

Climate change deniers are the wealthiest, least-educated, business-conglomerate capitalists of the world, whose goal is to profit by wantonly-exploiting our planet, unchecked.

Those who offer clean-energy alternatives, that don't harm our planet, should become the wealthiest people ... and the rest of humanity will benefit by empowering them.

If you think the wealthy oil companies (the worst of the worst) are benefiting the poor, the planet, or anyone but themselves ... then we cannot even have a conversation together.



Additionally, my theory about climate change mainly hinges on that it's effect are good and bad and has occurred throughout history.  I guess you haven't read my posts.  That even if it is warming up a couple of degrees, whether caused by man or not, it will be good and bad depending on where you live, or for that matter where corals live or can live.  Coral will die in areas that get too hot and start growing in areas that now will warm up.  Life adapts.  Do you dispute that theory?  You know that theory was developed by Charles Darwin.  You've heard of him, I hope.  What do you think?  I'm willing to listen to your ideas about that.

I can't read your nonsense anymore, sorry.

You are immune to facts and reason.

You believe in "magic thinking" and discount the opinions of the most educated segment of society.

I am sorry I interrupted you Alan ... do rail on.

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #676 on: July 17, 2017, 11:34:57 PM »

We disagree. And that's okay.
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Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #677 on: July 17, 2017, 11:48:52 PM »

Alan, by your own standard about who can have an opinion on climate change, you don't get to have a theory.  Also, you don't have a theory - you don't even have a hypothesis.
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Phil Brown

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #678 on: July 18, 2017, 12:17:49 AM »

Alan, by your own standard about who can have an opinion on climate change, you don't get to have a theory.  Also, you don't have a theory - you don't even have a hypothesis.
Thanks for your opinion.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #679 on: July 18, 2017, 01:31:48 AM »

But the issue I was pointing out is that species adapt or move to more productive places as local conditions worsen   That goes for corals, polar bears, man,  and all other species.

You seem to have drunk the Kool Aid - I mean, almost literally, since you seem to have a yearning for the extinction of your own species.
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