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Author Topic: Skepticism about Climate Change  (Read 213861 times)

Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #480 on: June 28, 2017, 03:58:36 pm »

There have always been volcanoes and forest fires and methane embedded in various forms. As they perturbed the atmosphere and therefore the climate, the planet's systems reacted to restore the atmospheric balance. These actions/reactions occur over long periods of time, compared to human life, and climate science attempts to understand these forces.

Understanding is not evidence or applied science, a type of science that requires precision and testing for repeatability. The target is too big to enable that level of precision.

And then there's corruption and accidents that happen in attempting to apply science to such a huge target whose sole, practical purpose is to prevent future climate calamities.

You think the science behind using DNA to convict the guilty (A SMALL TARGET) is infallible? Last weekend on TV I just saw a 13 year old cold case crime solved by a serial killer confession where DNA was used TWO TIMES to attempt to convict the wife accused of murdering her husband because they used DNA to say the husband was not the father of her child as the prime motive.

13 years later they catch a serial killer on an unrelated murder who confesses to the crime. So they had to test the DNA of the wife's child for the third time by an independent lab and found the husband WAS TRULY the father.

The excuse given by the prosecutor on why their DNA lab got it wrong twice is that the lab technician mislabeled the child's DNA sample.  Are you freakin' kidding me?! That prosecutor wanted to win a case at all costs.

Look at how many people are involved as "Climate Scientists" using science labs to back up their claims and you're going to say not one of them has an agenda to arrive at the results they want? Or everyone of them never makes a mistake especially measuring such a huge target as Global Climate Change?

COME ON!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 04:04:15 pm by Tim Lookingbill »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #481 on: June 28, 2017, 05:55:09 pm »

Understanding is not evidence or applied science, a type of science that requires precision and testing for repeatability. The target is too big to enable that level of precision.

And then there's corruption and accidents that happen in attempting to apply science to such a huge target whose sole, practical purpose is to prevent future climate calamities...

...Look at how many people are involved as "Climate Scientists" using science labs to back up their claims and you're going to say not one of them has an agenda to arrive at the results they want? Or everyone of them never makes a mistake especially measuring such a huge target as Global Climate Change?

COME ON!
  People feel the researchers are blowing smoke up our a**es.  Some are.  Also the politician pushing it like Al Gore made $100 million from pushing it with his book and carbon credits he sold in his businesses.  Meanwhile, the hypocrisy of him flying around in his own jet burning thousands of gallons of jet fuel per hour.  Poor countries are looking to get clean energy money from rich countries adds to the BS.  Meanwhile people who are trying to live day to day, the deplorables, are being told that it's tough luck on them if clean energy forces them to lose their jobs.

Also, all the news about warming is negative.  Polar bears are disappearing, which isn't true.  They'll adjust and hunt on land more, that's all, just like other species will adapt.  And my favorite objection that no one else really talks about is who says a rising temperature is bad.  Sure, there might be flooding.  But as the world warms up, there will be warmer areas to grow things for farming.  Animals will have more areas to expand into as the ice and cold retreats and trees, and other vegetation grows,  More insects, birds, etc.  And who says that the temperature of 150 years ago was the perfect model for climate.  We think it is because we're use to it.  But it may be that warmer climate is overall better for all species.  Look how many and prolific there are in South America in the Amazon?   
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 05:58:13 pm by Alan Klein »
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Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #482 on: June 29, 2017, 02:18:24 am »

I've done my best to clarify this issue of climate change, but I get a sense that some confusion still persists, so let me state my position again.

I'm not by any means anti-science. I have great respect for the advances in scientific knowledge and its potential to solve the problems that mankind faces and increase our prosperity and well-being.

What I object to are the biased representations of the science of climatology for political purposes. The science has become contaminated with political and economic motives which have the effect, in reality, of diverting funding from projects that might be more beneficial for mankind, towards investments and subsidies in alternative energy which tend to introduce additional problems of increased energy costs and/or reduced reliability of energy supply.

In order to justify such funding, exaggerations and even downright lies are broadcast, and those with little understanding of the nature of the scientific methodology tend to accept the flawed predictions that a  catastrophic change in climate due to CO2 rises will result if we don't reduce our CO2 emissions.

Some of those whom one might think should know better, because they have qualifications in some discipline of science, tend to jump on the bandwagon of CO2 alarmism because climate research is their career and livelihood and/or they can probably justify their unscientific stance of certainty on the issue, on the grounds that the development of alternative and clean energy supplies will eventually be of benefit to mankind regardless of the truth or falsehood of the negative claims about CO2 rises. In other words, the ends justify the means.

In some respects I sympathise with this last point, that the ends justify the means. If one has to lie in order to get people to behave sensibly in their own interests, then so be it.

I personally believe the development of solar panels in conjunction with efficient, durable and inexpensive battery storage which doesn't rely upon rare earth metals and relatively scarce metals such as Lithium, has a tremendous potential benefit for mankind, in the long run.
I understand quite well that creating a scare about the disastrous effects of rising CO2 levels might well be the most effective way of galvanizing public support for the expensive and sometimes disruptive transition to renewable energy supplies.

As a person who lives in a developed country, in a flood-free, cyclone-free and earthquake-free part of the country, I have little concern about my life being seriously disrupted by a natural disaster (although very rare events are always possible).
Personally, I would be overjoyed if my next car purchase could be a clean and efficient electric car, provided the initial cost was not significantly more than the equivalent petrol car, and provided the batteries were long-lasting and offered a quick recharge option. The opportunity of recharging the batteries from the electricity provided by my own solar panels, whch have already paid for themselves due to generous government subsidies, would also save me money on fuel.

Sadly, not everyone is in my fortunate circumstances, relatively secure from the effects of natural disasters. So many people throughout the world are very vulnerable to the effects of floods, droughts and storms, and there is no doubt that such extreme weather events have occurred in the past, continue to occur in the present, and will also continue to occur in the future, regardless of CO2 levels.

All the investments that have taken place in alternative, clean and sustainable energy supplies, will not protect those millions of vulnerable people from the continuing effects of natural, non-CO2 related, extreme weather events one whit.
In fact, such people, especially those who are really poor, might be even more vulnerable to losing their property and lives as a result of extreme weather events, because fixing their predicament will be more expensive if energy prices rise because of the legislative imposition of renewable energy sources.

How would you feel if you were a poor person living in a ramshackle house in a flood-prone area subject to a devastating storm every couple of decades, and you were told that all the money spent on renewable energy supplies would ensure that when the next storm arrives, the number of deaths will be no more than has occurred in the past because we have spent trillions of dollars reducing CO2 emissions?

The following article, which is also based upon scientific research, provides a more positive, alternative view about the effects of CO2.

http://www.co2science.org/about/position/globalwarming.php
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LesPalenik

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #483 on: June 29, 2017, 04:43:09 am »

Angela Merkel promises to take Donald Trump to task at G20 summit over climate change.

"We are convinced that climate change is one of the greatest challenges facing humanity, an existential challenge," she told the German parliament. "We cannot wait to act until the science has convinced every last doubter."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/angela-merkel-donald-trump-g20-summit-climate-change-germany-chancellor-us-president-trade-wilbur-a7813716.html
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #484 on: June 29, 2017, 11:28:28 am »

Angela Merkel promises to take Donald Trump to task at G20 summit over climate change.

Is she going to whip him or tickle him?  In any case, Trump isn't going to donate a dime to Paris and neither will Congress.  She should just be happy he's not tapping her phone like Obama did.  Oh wait, Obama never tapped anyone's phone, did he?

LesPalenik

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #485 on: June 29, 2017, 01:40:58 pm »

Is she going to whip him or tickle him?  In any case, Trump isn't going to donate a dime to Paris and neither will Congress.  She should just be happy he's not tapping her phone like Obama did.  Oh wait, Obama never tapped anyone's phone, did he?

For sure, she is not going to grab him by any part of his body. She'll do it in a more dignified way.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #486 on: June 29, 2017, 01:46:59 pm »

For sure, she is not going to grab him by any part of his body. She'll do it in a more dignified way.

Well, not grabbing, but maybe she'll shake his hand (if he dares this time). She'll certainly not engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

Cheers,
Bart
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LesPalenik

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #487 on: June 30, 2017, 09:39:55 am »

Well, not grabbing, but maybe she'll shake his hand (if he dares this time). She'll certainly not engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

Cheers,
Bart

That's a good one, Bart.
Yes, maybe she will politely shake his hand, but according to rumour mill, some of the male participants have been busy practising bone crashing hand shakes and are just waiting for the opportunity to meet Trump again.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #488 on: June 30, 2017, 12:06:17 pm »

That's a good one, Bart.
Yes, maybe she will politely shake his hand, but according to rumour mill, some of the male participants have been busy practising bone crashing hand shakes and are just waiting for the opportunity to meet Trump again.

That sounds childish on their part.  I thought they were making fun of Trump for his immaturity.

pegelli

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #489 on: June 30, 2017, 02:04:21 pm »

That sounds childish on their part. 
Since when do you believe the rumours in the liberal press, as long as it isn't covered on Fox it ain't true ;)

I thought they were making fun of Trump for his immaturity.
Where did you get this?  They're mostly ignoring his irrational demands and trying to talk some sense into him.

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pieter, aka pegelli

LesPalenik

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #490 on: June 30, 2017, 02:44:52 pm »

That sounds childish on their part.  I thought they were making fun of Trump for his immaturity.

That would be really childish. Everybody knows that the real men use forceful body checks, amplified by their considerable body weight, like at the recent G7 summit.

Quote
OUTRAGE has erupted in Montenegro after Donald Trump “humiliated” the country’s Prime Minister by shoving him out of his way at this weekend’s G7 summit.
According to Russian news agency TASS, one even suggested tiny Montenegro should place sanctions on the US in revenge. They wrote: “There should follow tough sanctions against America to let it know whose prime minster was pushed and humiliated.”

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3664712/donald-trump-g7-summit-shove-montenegro-prime-minister-latest-news/
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 03:28:06 pm by LesPalenik »
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Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #491 on: June 30, 2017, 07:18:42 pm »

That sounds childish on their part.  I thought they were making fun of Trump for his immaturity.

So it's OK for Trump to "stand up" and "not take it" when people have a go at him, but if people respond in kind to his absurd and aggressive handshakes, it's childish on their part?  Typically, he and his supporters can give it, but they can't take it (or even a mere suggestion of having to take it).  That's childish.
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Phil Brown

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #492 on: July 01, 2017, 07:32:34 am »

So it's OK for Trump to "stand up" and "not take it" when people have a go at him, but if people respond in kind to his absurd and aggressive handshakes, it's childish on their part?  Typically, he and his supporters can give it, but they can't take it (or even a mere suggestion of having to take it).  That's childish.

Very ;) childish indeed. But typical for populists who always need an outside enemy that they can blame, instead of some introspection and growing up to more mature behavior themselves.

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #493 on: July 01, 2017, 07:37:20 am »

Skepticism turning into denial, or even deliberate obstruction ...

The U.S. government is removing scientific data from the internet
https://arstechnica.com/video/2017/06/the-u-s-government-is-removing-scientific-data-from-the-internet/

QUOTE: "In our latest episode of Ars Technica Live, Ars editors Annalee Newitz and Joe Mullin talked to UC Santa Cruz sociology professor Lindsey Dillon about how the Trump Administration has been removing scientific and environmental data from the Web. Lindsey is part of a group called Environmental Data Governance Initiative (EDGI), which is working on ways to rescue that data and make it available to the public.

Lindsey told us how EDGI got started in November 2016, within days of the presidential election. Its founders are scientists and academics whose main goal was to make sure that researchers and citizens would continue to have access to data about the environment. They organized data rescue events around the country, where volunteers identified vulnerable climate information on websites for several government agencies, including the EPA, DOE, and even NASA. The Internet Archive helped by creating digital records of all the at-risk pages."


Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #494 on: July 01, 2017, 07:48:11 am »

And even when scientists fail to convince their colleagues in peer-reviewed publications, the US government wants them to succeed in sowing doubt about climate change. It totally denies the scientific method that allows reaching a consensus based on independent research efforts, purely for irrational political reasons.

EPA intends to form “red team” to debate climate science
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/06/epa-intends-to-form-red-team-to-debate-climate-science/

QUOTE: "US Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Scott Pruitt and Energy Secretary Rick Perry have been making some headlines for publicly rejecting the conclusions of climate science. But in between wrongly claiming that climate scientists just don’t know how much of a contribution humans make to recent global warming (answer: roughly 100 percent), they have also been parroting a new line—that climate science needs a “red team” to take on the scientific consensus."

It's becoming an Orwellian nightmare. Wasting taxpayer's money and valuable time to promote falsehoods for short-term political gain.

Cheers,
Bart
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LesPalenik

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #495 on: July 01, 2017, 08:05:43 am »

Very similar to the obfuscation of truth by the tobacco industry.

Quote
The tobacco industry wrote the playbook for the rest of the industries,” said Matt Myers, president of the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids. “Whether it’s the chemical industry, whether its climate change … You see it in industry after industry.” Now, it’s hiring consultants who took its techniques and pushed them further in other industries, relying on their experience to contest the scientific consensus on the dangers of low-tar cigarettes.

On December 14, 1953, the CEOs of the six largest cigarette makers met secretly at New York’s Plaza Hotel to discuss a strategy for countering the bad publicity. What developed over time, as Kessler’s opinion details, was a joint strategy to twist science and mislead the public about the dangers of smoking. The industry announced that it was forming a research committee to look into the matter. It hired independent scientists such as cancer researcher Clarence Cook Little to do interviews, insisting that there was no proof that cigarettes cause cancer.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/05/low-tar-cigarettes/481116/
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #496 on: July 01, 2017, 09:06:19 am »

So it's OK for Trump to "stand up" and "not take it" when people have a go at him, but if people respond in kind to his absurd and aggressive handshakes, it's childish on their part?  Typically, he and his supporters can give it, but they can't take it (or even a mere suggestion of having to take it).  That's childish.
I think it's poor strategy on their part. Senator Marco Rubio gave a run at trying to turn Trump's antics back on him during the nomination process.  He failed miserably at it and had to apologize publicly for stooping and off-color jokes.  He was finished after that.  Apparently only Trump can get away with stuff like that. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #497 on: July 01, 2017, 09:21:03 am »

And even when scientists fail to convince their colleagues in peer-reviewed publications, the US government wants them to succeed in sowing doubt about climate change. It totally denies the scientific method that allows reaching a consensus based on independent research efforts, purely for irrational political reasons.

EPA intends to form “red team” to debate climate science
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/06/epa-intends-to-form-red-team-to-debate-climate-science/

QUOTE: "US Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Scott Pruitt and Energy Secretary Rick Perry have been making some headlines for publicly rejecting the conclusions of climate science. But in between wrongly claiming that climate scientists just don’t know how much of a contribution humans make to recent global warming (answer: roughly 100 percent), they have also been parroting a new line—that climate science needs a “red team” to take on the scientific consensus."

It's becoming an Orwellian nightmare. Wasting taxpayer's money and valuable time to promote falsehoods for short-term political gain.

Cheers,
Bart
So the article you linked too stated that roughly 100% of global warning is due to humans.  There are no other factors?

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #498 on: July 01, 2017, 11:21:53 am »

So the article you linked too stated that roughly 100% of global warning is due to humans.  There are no other factors?

I'll try and think of what else it could be, maybe I'm going to be unsuccessful. I'll let you know.

At any event, it's not due to a change in solar activity (beyond the annual and approx. 11 year cycles), it's not that the earth's axis suddenly tilted the last several decades, it's not that there's been a surge in (or sudden absence of) volcanic activity, the analysis of Carbon isotopes (C-12 vs C-13 vs C-14) shows that the CO2 in our atmosphere is coming from the burning of fossil fuel, so I'll need to do some very creative thinking of what else might have caused global temperatures to keep rising in proportion with the accelerating rise of CO2 levels and resulting acidification trend of the oceans ...

It's Us (link corrected):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc8mUI_cMKk

Suggestions are welcome.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 12:42:40 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #499 on: July 01, 2017, 12:31:08 pm »

Bart:  I'm not arguing that man isn't adding things that may be increasing the heat.  There are just too many variables to state with assurance that the change is caused 100% by man.  Of course, my favorite statement is "so what?"  2-3 degree increases in the climate may actually be good when you consider the additional land that will be arable and provide more territory for species growth. 

In any case, with Trump president, there isn't going to be much Federal spending.  Development of clean energy will come about as the free market entices producers and entrepreneurs to develop and market new products.  We don't need a government to do that.  In fact, a government is inefficient and wasteful.  It picks winners and losers much less effectively than the hidden hand of capitalism and free markets.  Look what government has done with ethanol in gasoline.  What a waste of corn.  By forcing 10% use in automobiles, growers are using corn for gas instead of for cattle, raising the cost of food.  Nuclear is dead in America because of government regulation.  Imagine getting rid of most of the fossil fuel electricity generating plants with nuclear.  All that pollution - gone.  All that CO2 - gone.  The last plant was built thirty years ago. 
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