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Author Topic: Skepticism about Climate Change  (Read 213728 times)

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #460 on: June 27, 2017, 07:13:28 am »

Why all of a sudden are we hearing about them now and how do we know it's a real science?

I don't understand this. A few decades ago, gene splicing didn't exist either, is that fake too?

Climate scientist seems to be a generalized term to mean someone doing research in climate modelling, I believe, though do not take my word on this as fact. The term probably encompasses many disciplines. So what.

What, exactly, is so unusual about having a new term to describe a field that didn't used to exist.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #461 on: June 27, 2017, 07:21:12 am »

But politicians on both sides meddle in science.  Why are the politicians whose viewpoint you support allowed to meddle and pass laws but politicians who support my viewpoint cannot?  what's good for the goose is good for the gander.  We do live in a democracy after all.  And Trump was elected President.  So he has a right to direct the EPA as he desires, not as Hillary would have.  As Obama said, "Elections have consequences."

It is true that politicians make use of this info to further their own aims. What does that have to do with the underlying facts?

Climate modelling is a work in progress. The way science works is to publish results and explanations and theories and learn from each other. Over time, a body of knowledge is built. Some ideas end up being good, some not so good, others wrong. That's how everything works. The objection to the interference with the EPA site is because politicians are deciding beforehand what they want to see.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #462 on: June 27, 2017, 07:23:06 am »

The whole subject is political. :)

The public discussions are political. The underlying science is neutral.

We've been through all this before with Galileo and others.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #463 on: June 27, 2017, 08:09:02 am »

I don't understand this. A few decades ago, gene splicing didn't exist either, is that fake too?

Climate scientist seems to be a generalized term to mean someone doing research in climate modelling, I believe, though do not take my word on this as fact. The term probably encompasses many disciplines. So what.

What, exactly, is so unusual about having a new term to describe a field that didn't used to exist.

I agree, it's a multidisciplinary field of science, and has been around for centuries.

Climatology, Climate science:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatology
Quote
Climatology (from Greek κλίμα, klima, "place, zone"; and -λογία, -logia) or climate science is the study of climate, scientifically defined as weather conditions averaged over a period of time.[1] This modern field of study is regarded as a branch of the atmospheric sciences and a subfield of physical geography, which is one of the Earth sciences. Climatology now includes aspects of oceanography and biogeochemistry.

Cheers,
Bart
 
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #464 on: June 27, 2017, 08:29:59 am »

The public discussions are political. The underlying science is neutral.

We've been through all this before with Galileo and others.

Indeed, and CO2 is still a greenhouse gas (as are Methane and water vapour). The accelerating emissions and resulting temperature increases are objectively recorded, unless one wants to accuse e.g. thermometers of having a political agenda.

An additional concern is the rejection and deliberate marginalization of science, e.g. by abolishing the education on evolution as scientific fact based (as suggested by e.g. VP Mike Pence, and now being removed from Turkey education). This rejection appears to be especially strong in the USA.

Cheers,
Bart
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #465 on: June 27, 2017, 08:51:09 am »

Indeed, and CO2 is still a greenhouse gas (as are Methane and water vapour). The accelerating emissions and resulting temperature increases are objectively recorded, unless one wants to accuse e.g. thermometers of having a political agenda.

An additional concern is the rejection and deliberate marginalization of science, e.g. by abolishing the education on evolution as scientific fact based (as suggested by e.g. VP Mike Pence, and now being removed from Turkey education). This rejection appears to be especially strong in the USA.

Cheers,
Bart

As an aside, the religious objection to evolution has always puzzled me. Why is it so difficult for a believer to believe that the creator could have created evolution? Why is it irreligious to accept evolution? I don't understand this. There seems to be a lot of investment in the literal interpretation of religious texts, something theologians abandoned a long time ago. But I can see where those invested in this would object to education.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #466 on: June 27, 2017, 09:27:30 am »

As an aside, the religious objection to evolution has always puzzled me. Why is it so difficult for a believer to believe that the creator could have created evolution? Why is it irreligious to accept evolution? I don't understand this. There seems to be a lot of investment in the literal interpretation of religious texts, something theologians abandoned a long time ago. But I can see where those invested in this would object to education.

I contribute that to dogmatic beliefs. Where dogma's begin, thinking stops. Where e.g. Arab cultures used to contribute progress, literature, astronomy, and Math, since dogmatic/literal interpretation started dominating, all advancement came to a grinding halt.

Science as a process is anything but dogmatic, constantly building on new and improved understanding. And with improved tools, also comes new/more accurate insight, so predictions become more accurate as well (within the limitations caused by changes in human behavior).

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #467 on: June 27, 2017, 09:56:15 am »

I should have said political and economic.  People, companies, scientists, and countries are making millions.    Al Gore alone made $100 million from carbon credits, books, movies etc. advocating global warming "science".   Meanwhile he flies around in a private jet burning thousands of gallons of JP4 propulsion fuel per hour. 

Governments are providing billions in credits to companied and individuals to pay for solar panels, electric cars and other clean energy products.

Researchers and scientists receive millions to continue their research checking polar bear populations, tree growth, sea heights, develop program software, etc.

Countries who don't have much will get money from big countries to "help" them out since they can't afford clean energy systems.  Meanwhile the crooked leaders of those countries are pocketing most of the aid.

Consumers (richer for the most part) will continue to get credit from the government paid by taxes from the rest of us poor schnoooks, so they can buy expensive solar panels and electric cars for less than they should so they can reduce their eclectic bills while the rest of us pay more.


Robert Roaldi

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #468 on: June 27, 2017, 01:30:38 pm »

Researchers and scientists receive millions? That's hysterically funny.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #469 on: June 27, 2017, 03:53:38 pm »

I don't understand this. A few decades ago, gene splicing didn't exist either, is that fake too?

Climate scientist seems to be a generalized term to mean someone doing research in climate modelling, I believe, though do not take my word on this as fact. The term probably encompasses many disciplines. So what.

What, exactly, is so unusual about having a new term to describe a field that didn't used to exist.

I don't understand how you can equate climate science with gene splicing, which I agree is a science because the evidence to show that it is comprises a small target that makes it easy to see it's a science with results in the form of people's health improving. It's practical. You can see it with your eyes.

Climate Change is a gargantuan, constantly changing and moving target with so many variables from nature coming into play that it's damn near impossible to see with one's own eyes the same level of precision used with gene splicing. There isn't the same precision in Climate Change to equate it to any applied science that could fix it. I didn't see the science in the '70's and I don't see any recognizable science today.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:58:42 pm by Tim Lookingbill »
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #470 on: June 27, 2017, 04:06:03 pm »

The study of climate is not applied science even if you set up the study to make it sound scientific.

There's no way to set up a blind A/B test. The target is too big so all you can do is measure, measure, measure, but never be precise enough to trace causality and rule out other factors since you can't blind test it.

So instead of calling it Global Climate Change I'ld like it named what it originally was...pollution which covers water, ground and air. Let's see let's call it Global Anti-Pollution Mandate.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 04:09:12 pm by Tim Lookingbill »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #471 on: June 27, 2017, 04:13:21 pm »

I don't understand how you can equate climate science with gene splicing, which I agree is a science because the evidence to show that it is comprises a small target that makes it easy to see it's a science with results in the form of people's health improving. It's practical. You can see it with your eyes.

Climate Change is a gargantuan, constantly changing and moving target with so many variables from nature coming into play that it's damn near impossible to see with one's own eyes the same level of precision used with gene splicing. There isn't the same precision in Climate Change to equate it to any applied science that could fix it. I didn't see the science in the '70's and I don't see any recognizable science today.

I made no such comparison. I was merely responding to your objection of the term "climate scientist".
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #472 on: June 27, 2017, 04:18:34 pm »

The study of climate is not applied science even if you set up the study to make it sound scientific.

There's no way to set up a blind A/B test. The target is too big so all you can do is measure, measure, measure, but never be precise enough to trace causality and rule out other factors since you can't blind test it.

You seem to arguing a semantic point, based on a narrow definition of science, i.e., that it only applies to a field of study where precise laboratory experiments can be conducted and repeated. I'm ok with that, you can call it whatever you want. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #473 on: June 27, 2017, 04:32:38 pm »

Researchers and scientists receive millions? That's hysterically funny.

You're right.  It's not millions.  I was wrong.  It's billions!

"The federal government — which will gain unprecedented regulatory power if climate legislation is passed — has funded scientific research to the tune of $32.5 billion since 1989."
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/414359/global-warming-follow-money-henry-payne

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #474 on: June 27, 2017, 06:11:28 pm »

The NFL TV rights for the period 2014-2022 will be $39.6 billion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League_on_television). That does not include ticket sales, salaries, other sponsorship deals, licensed products. It also does not include gambling; an estimate is that $4.7 billion is bet on JUST the Super Bowl (http://heavy.com/sports/2017/02/how-much-money-is-bet-on-the-super-bowl/).

And that's just football.

Then, there is all the other non-sport related gambling, that must come to a lot.

What's the best guess of the value of the illegal drug trade? I have no idea, but it must be pretty substantial if they can't even keep it out of prisons, places with locked doors.

All I'm saying is, and I cannot believe I am about to type this, is that $32 billion isn't really a lot of money anymore, is it?  :)

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EricV

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #475 on: June 27, 2017, 06:16:13 pm »

The study of climate is not applied science even if you set up the study to make it sound scientific.
There's no way to set up a blind A/B test. The target is too big so all you can do is measure, measure, measure, but never be precise enough to trace causality and rule out other factors since you can't blind test it.
 
Climatology is certainly not an "applied" science, since there is no application.  But the same could be said for Astronomy, which I trust you agree is a science.  In both cases, scientists construct theories to explain observations, then test those theories against further observations, and eventually gain some confidence that the theories are correct depictions of reality.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #476 on: June 27, 2017, 07:21:43 pm »

You're right.  It's not millions.  I was wrong.  It's billions!

"The federal government — which will gain unprecedented regulatory power if climate legislation is passed — has funded scientific research to the tune of $32.5 billion since 1989."
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/414359/global-warming-follow-money-henry-payne

First, it didn't fund the researchers, it went to the research, or are you suggesting that they were on the take? Second, it mentions a cumulative number, since 1989, why? Third, is that number correct? Fourth, who is the author 'Henry Payne', or 'National Review' for that matter?

Not bad for a single sentence to raise so many questions.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #477 on: June 27, 2017, 09:17:59 pm »

First, it didn't fund the researchers, it went to the research, or are you suggesting that they were on the take? Second, it mentions a cumulative number, since 1989, why? Third, is that number correct? Fourth, who is the author 'Henry Payne', or 'National Review' for that matter?

Not bad for a single sentence to raise so many questions.

Cheers,
Bart
Researchers get money indirectly, in some cases directly, from research grants.  Additionally, the government reviews requests for grants.  If you're a person who has criticized climate change science, the people who approve the grants won't give them to you.  So that forces compliance with the government position which under Obama was pro-climate change.  It's like a self-fulfilling prophesy.   

Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #478 on: June 28, 2017, 03:53:21 am »

 
Climatology is certainly not an "applied" science, since there is no application.  But the same could be said for Astronomy, which I trust you agree is a science.  In both cases, scientists construct theories to explain observations, then test those theories against further observations, and eventually gain some confidence that the theories are correct depictions of reality.

Why do you think I emphasized the point about applied science? It's to mitigate against future climate change calamities. We don't mitigate against the effects of Astronomy with theories. We don't observe the universe so we can change or fix it so your comparison is pointless.

And we better have more than theories (not that they can be tested) to show we can change the climate for the better just by observing it.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #479 on: June 28, 2017, 11:13:34 am »

There have always been volcanoes and forest fires and methane embedded in various forms. As they perturbed the atmosphere and therefore the climate, the planet's systems reacted to restore the atmospheric balance. These actions/reactions occur over long periods of time, compared to human life, and climate science attempts to understand these forces. There seem to be people who think that even attempting to understand these things cannot work. I don't mean to be dis-respectful, but are you kidding me?  We are surrounded every minute of the day by things that no one understood a century ago.

Humans ARE modifying the climate by introducing greenhouse gases by burning fossil fuels. The question is: are we introducing them at a rate and quantity so rapid and large that the planet's systems cannot adapt rapidly enough. This is only of concern to us, btw. The balance that is required is only necessary for our well-being. If the planet cannot adapt rapidly enough, all that will happen is that many humans will suffer and die. The planet will go on, it never needed us and does not need us now. Humans are simply an evolved adaptation to the current natural world. If those conditions change too much and too quickly, we disappear. I speak in hyperbole here, of course, we won't all necessarily die.

So, if we can hone the modelling to the point where we can more or less decide that they predict things (closely enough) to have some confidence in the prediction, then we will know how much money to divert to saving Miami, Bangladesh, New York, etc.

What I don't comprehend is why there is so much objection to doing this research to try and understand climactic change. The starting point seems to be that because some have an axe to grind, they come to the a priori conclusion that not only is the study a waste of time, it is also wrong-headed. How can you know that until you do the research? The objections all sound like ego-protest, some of generic rebellion against ideas that are perceived to be too 1960 ish or too "left" (whatever the f**k that means these days), or anti-business (as if "business" is the end-point). A whole lot of people who don't know much seem to have decided that it's all bunk.

There is also an idea floating around that we can't do anything about it anyway so let's not do anything because there are other things to spend money on. We can't do much about naturally occurring phenomenon, but we can do something about the harm that we have done ourselves, but we have to understand it first. If we understand actions that create harm, then we can change those actions. I understand that some may not want to change, but change might be coming whether you want to or not. The idea that we have better things to spend money is silly. There are always optional ways to spend money, we decide the priorities. We blow tons of cash on NFL gambling, bombing places for discernible long-term benefit, etc., there is no end of things. To single out climate research as too expensive is a laughable idea.
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