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Author Topic: Skepticism about Climate Change  (Read 213832 times)

Chairman Bill

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #240 on: June 02, 2017, 02:17:22 pm »

The idea that an international treaty to combat a global threat, somehow constitutes a command economy, and that that is in any way equalivalent to the Soviet Union. Utterly laughable, if it was funny. It isn't.

Also, can someone tell me where the idea that 'free markets' should reign above the rights of humanity to a safe & stable planet, came from? Or maybe it's just me, who is more concerned with the well-being of your children, grand-children, great-grand-children and so on, than you seem to be.

HSakols

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #241 on: June 02, 2017, 02:29:18 pm »

This explains why Mammouth Mountain's snow fall is corrolated with global cooling.  Read these graphs carefully to fully understand. 

Quote
https://www.venganza.org/2017/03/climate-change/
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #242 on: June 02, 2017, 03:41:53 pm »

The idea that an international treaty to combat a global threat, somehow constitutes a command economy, and that that is in any way equalivalent to the Soviet Union. Utterly laughable, if it was funny. It isn't.

Also, can someone tell me where the idea that 'free markets' should reign above the rights of humanity to a safe & stable planet, came from? Or maybe it's just me, who is more concerned with the well-being of your children, grand-children, great-grand-children and so on, than you seem to be.
The argument made by others was that the Paris Agreement would create incentives for producing more efficient energy sources.  That's a government sponsored command system.  These tend to create winners and losers based on government thinking of what's best.  Governments are usually wrong and the results are also very inefficient.

The best system for producing the kind of goods we need, including energy, at the lowest possible cost is through the invisible hand of free markets and open competition. 

The problem with the Paris Agreement is that even if  people are causing global warming, the Agreement will end with America picking up the tab.  Europe and others will slide on the payments they promised.

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #243 on: June 02, 2017, 03:44:15 pm »

This explains why Mammouth Mountain's snow fall is corrolated with global cooling.  Read these graphs carefully to fully understand. 

Well, I'm blaming global warming for getting older as I see my age increasing as it gets hotter.  Definitely a cause and effect.   What other reason could there be for my gray hair? 

pegelli

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #244 on: June 02, 2017, 04:00:32 pm »

The problem with the Paris Agreement is that even if  people are causing global warming, the Agreement will end with America picking up the tab.  Europe and others will slide on the payments they promised.
Another nonsence argument and I can't believe you're falling for this alt-right fake news/propaganda. Pls. explain to me why others would get away with sliding, currently the only one who is sliding is the US.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Rob C

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #245 on: June 02, 2017, 05:07:02 pm »

Another nonsence argument and I can't believe you're falling for this alt-right fake news/propaganda. Pls. explain to me why others would get away with sliding, currently the only one who is sliding is the US.


Pieter, it's pointless.

Well no: if you like whipping the fog, then it could be fun.

;-(

Rob

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #246 on: June 02, 2017, 05:19:06 pm »

Another nonsence argument and I can't believe you're falling for this alt-right fake news/propaganda. Pls. explain to me why others would get away with sliding, currently the only one who is sliding is the US.
For the same reason NATO's European countries are sliding on the 2% they're suppose to pay for defense.  I'm amazed that while bankrupt Greece is paying the 2%, wealthy France and Germany are sliding.  Why should we trust them with the Paris Agreement?  They're freeloaders.   

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #247 on: June 02, 2017, 06:32:02 pm »

I just learned that it was Obama, unilaterally like a king,  who agreed to the Paris Accord.  If he had gotten the Senate to approve the treaty, Trump couldn't unilaterally pull out.   Obama was depending on Hillary to win and support his executive actions.  She must be a continuing disappointment to him. 

Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #248 on: June 02, 2017, 07:29:52 pm »

Now that America is out, who wants to bet that the rest of the world will pull out too blaming the US?  Of course, if this is a real issue, they should still be in favor of the Agreement since 80% of the so called effect will still be operable.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-03/donald-trump-paris-agreement-withdrawal-leaves-world-reeling/8585962

Europe and China have done exactly the opposite, confirming they will stick with it.  Australia, too, has confirmed it will stick with it and is already on track to meet the obligations.

So, yes, they're (we're) saying it's a real issue and they're (we're) sticking with it.  US business knows this is a bad deal (unless you're an oil or gas company), and are looking to continue to push to renewables so they don't get stuck trying to compete with the need to pay for a limited supply energy against the rest of the world moving to a zero cost raw material, renewable, source.

Trump just gave China its biggest possible economic and political win.  They'll not care one bit about the South China Sea in the long run, because they won't need the resources.  China plays the long game, and they're winning at the moment.
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Phil Brown

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #249 on: June 02, 2017, 07:45:21 pm »

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-03/donald-trump-paris-agreement-withdrawal-leaves-world-reeling/8585962

Europe and China have done exactly the opposite, confirming they will stick with it.  Australia, too, has confirmed it will stick with it and is already on track to meet the obligations.

So, yes, they're (we're) saying it's a real issue and they're (we're) sticking with it.  US business knows this is a bad deal (unless you're an oil or gas company), and are looking to continue to push to renewables so they don't get stuck trying to compete with the need to pay for a limited supply energy against the rest of the world moving to a zero cost raw material, renewable, source.

Trump just gave China its biggest possible economic and political win.  They'll not care one bit about the South China Sea in the long run, because they won't need the resources.  China plays the long game, and they're winning at the moment.
After they write a few more checks, they'll pull out too.

Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #250 on: June 02, 2017, 07:54:21 pm »

So now your argument is just based on your hopes and a crystal ball?

Pulling out would be political suicide.  They won't pull out.  They'll continue to invest in a new energy paradigm because it makes huge economic sense, it's politically popular, and it's not that difficult.

But by all means counter with "no, you are" as the level of discourse.
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Phil Brown

Chairman Bill

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #251 on: June 02, 2017, 08:47:57 pm »

The argument made by others was that the Paris Agreement would create incentives for producing more efficient energy sources.  That's a government sponsored command system. 

Incentives for everyone is the same as a command? Wow. Those stupid pills really do work.

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #252 on: June 02, 2017, 10:08:23 pm »

Incentives for everyone is the same as a command? Wow. Those stupid pills really do work.
Can't you make a cogent argument without insulting people you disagree with?  Then I read your profile on Flickr where you wrote: "Cantankerous, bloody-minded, bald, ugly old git. Boring academic & ex-marine. That's probably too much information for most people, so I'll stop writing."

OK  I get it.  Carry on. 

pegelli

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #253 on: June 03, 2017, 02:23:18 am »

For the same reason NATO's European countries are sliding on the 2% they're suppose to pay for defense.  I'm amazed that while bankrupt Greece is paying the 2%, wealthy France and Germany are sliding.  Why should we trust them with the Paris Agreement?  They're freeloaders.
Oh, here comes the silly NATO argument again, it's just more alt-right alligator tears. The US (and the US taxpayers) didn't spend one penny more on the US defense budget because some countries are not up to the long term target of 2% which was agreed a few years ago. Harping on this issue and completely misrepresenting what it really means is only counterproductive and will not achieve anything.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 02:43:07 am by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

pegelli

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #254 on: June 03, 2017, 02:54:15 am »

Can't you make a cogent argument without insulting people you disagree with?  Then I read your profile on Flickr where you wrote: "Cantankerous, bloody-minded, bald, ugly old git. Boring academic & ex-marine. That's probably too much information for most people, so I'll stop writing."

OK  I get it.  Carry on.
While I don't agree with the insults (should not be needed among photography friends who disagree on an issue) I do agree that there is a vast difference between a central command economy and providing incentives to steer new technology development, so from that perspective I think your comment was a bit far fetched. But since you didn't comment on that (which is the core of the discussion) may I conclude you agree with me on that?  ;)
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 05:09:47 am by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #255 on: June 03, 2017, 03:38:35 am »

Oh, here comes the silly NATO argument again, it's just more alt-right alligator tears. The US (and the US taxpayers) didn't spend one penny more on the US defense budget because some countries are not up to the long term target of 2% which was agreed a few years ago. Harping on this issue and completely misrepresenting what it really means is only counterproductive and will not achieve anything.

Exactly right.  The 2014 agreement provided for 10 years for all members to get to the 2% target.  It also doesn't calculate the value of land used to provide facilities and bases (on any basis, economic cost, market value, opportunity cost, etc.).
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Phil Brown

Chairman Bill

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #256 on: June 03, 2017, 04:54:32 am »

Can't you make a cogent argument without insulting people you disagree with? 

Cogent arguments really don't seem to work with some people. They seem immune to reason, immune to facts ... what's left?

Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #257 on: June 03, 2017, 05:00:56 am »

And yes, CO2 is pollution, look up the definition:
according to Merriam-Webster dictionary: the action of polluting especially by environmental contamination with man-made waste;
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pollution
according to Wikipedia: Pollution is the introduction of contaminants into the natural environment that cause adverse change
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollution

Sorry, Bart. You need to hone your logical thinking skills. It's understood that any ingredient taken in excessively large quantities can be harmful. Drinking too much water, after an exhaustive marathon, has been known to kill people. To therefore describe pure and clean water as a pollutant is absurd. If water is a pollutant, and CO2 is a pollutant, then there is nothing that is not a pollutant, that I can think of. Perhaps you can enlighten me. What substance is not a pollutant?

The following article provides an interesting overview of the health effects of CO2 concentrations.
http://www.co2science.org/subject/h/summaries/healtheffectsco2.php

"Very high concentrations of atmospheric CO2 can produce a state of hypercapnia or an excessive amount of CO2 in the blood (Nahas et al., 1968; Brackett et al., 1969; van Ypersele de Strihou, 1974), which typically results in acidosis, a serious and sometimes fatal condition characterized in humans by headache, nausea and visual disturbances (Poyart and Nahas, 1968; Turino et al., 1974).  However, these phenomena do not impact human health until the atmosphere's CO2 concentration reaches approximately 15,000 ppm (Luft et al., 1974; Schaefer, 1982), which is approximately 40 times greater than its current concentration.  Hence, we do not have to worry about any direct negative health effects of the ongoing rise in the air's CO2 content.

But what about positive health effects of atmospheric CO2 enrichment?  Is there any evidence the historical rise in the air's CO2 content has been good for us?
In a lengthy review of research directly related to this question, Idso and Idso (2001) note that elevated concentrations of atmospheric CO2 have been shown to increase the concentrations of vitamins A and C in various fruits and vegetables.  They also note that atmospheric CO2 enrichment increases the concentrations of several disease-fighting substances in certain medicinal plants.  In experiments with the woolly foxglove (Digitalis lanata), for example, in addition to increasing plant biomass by 63 to 83%, a near-tripling of the air's CO2 content increased the concentration of heart-helping digoxin by 11 to 14% (Stuhlfauth et al., 1987; Stuhlfauth and Fock, 1990).  Likewise, in the tropical spider lily (Hymenocallis littoralis), in addition to increasing plant biomass by 56%, a mere 75% increase in the air's CO2 content increased the concentrations of five different substances proven effective in treating a number of human cancers (leukemia, melanoma, brain, colon, lung, ovarian and renal), as well as several viral diseases (Japanese encephalitis and yellow, dengue, Punta Tora and Rift Falley fevers) by 6 to 28% (Idso et al., 2000)."


Quote
And no, it hasn't been accelerating like that for 800,000 years, and yes, it's due to manmade pollution with CO2.

Wow! Should we now bow down to the God, BartvanderWolf? How is he so certain about this?

Let's look at the evidence from mere mortals. The following site provides what seems to me to be a balanced overview.
https://debunkhouse.wordpress.com/2010/03/28/co2-ice-cores-vs-plant-stomata/

"Three common ways to estimate pre-industrial atmospheric CO2 concentrations (before instrumental records began in 1959) are:   
1) Measuring CO2 content in air bubbles trapped in ice cores.   
2) Measuring the density of stomata  in plants.   
3) GEOCARB (Berner et al., 1991, 1999, 2004): A geological model for the evolution of atmospheric CO2 over the Phanerozoic Eon.  This model is derived from “geological, geochemical, biological, and climatological data.”  The main drivers being tectonic activity, organic matter burial and continental rock weathering.

The problems with the ice core data are (1) the air-age vs. ice-age delta and (2) the effects of burial depth on gas concentrations. 
It appears that the ice core data represent a long-term, low-frequency moving average of the atmospheric CO2 concentration; while the stomata yield a high frequency component. 

The stomata data routinely show that atmospheric CO2 levels were higher than the ice cores do.  Plant stomata data from the previous interglacial (Eemian/Sangamonian) were higher than the ice cores indicate… 

The GEOCARB data also suggest that ice core CO2 data are too low… 

Thus it is concluded that:
(1) CO2 levels from the Early Holocene through pre-industrial times were highly variable and not stable as the ice cores suggest.
(2) The carbon and climate cycles are coupled in a consistent manner from the Early Holocene to the present day.
(3) The carbon cycle lags behind the climate cycle and thus does not drive the climate cycle.
(4) The lag time is consistent with the hypothesis of a temperature-driven carbon cycle.
(5) The anthropogenic contribution to the carbon cycle since 1860 is minimal and inconsequential."

And lastly, for those interested in the media's response to glaring inconsistencies in the AGW alarmist position, the following article addresses the embarrassing and inconvenient 'truth' that the ice-core data show that rises in CO2 levels always follow rises in temperature, implying that CO2 rises do not necessarilly cause rises in global temperatures.

That's a very inconvenient truth that the media tends to gloss over.
http://www.hirhome.com/climate_change/global_warming04.htm

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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #258 on: June 03, 2017, 07:39:46 am »

Oh, here comes the silly NATO argument again, it's just more alt-right alligator tears. The US (and the US taxpayers) didn't spend one penny more on the US defense budget because some countries are not up to the long term target of 2% which was agreed a few years ago. Harping on this issue and completely misrepresenting what it really means is only counterproductive and will not achieve anything.
Pieter, it does make a difference.   If Europe is attacked let's say by Russia, America is commited to defend you through NATO.  However, from a moral as well as an economic basis, Europe is acting unfair.  It expects America to make up the difference in troops, money and blood if less European troops and equipment are  available to defend yourselves because you didn't meet the 2% commitment on military expenditures.   Also, if America needs you, you won't necessarily have the equipment and troops needed to help.   

Additional, I assume it costs us more even in peacetime when Europe slides on the 2%, because the US Defense Department most calculate how many European resources there are currently.  If it's less than required for a proper defense, then we've been paying the difference.  If Europe paid more for their defense as they said they would, we could reduce our expenditures for the additional American troops and equipment we have to supply.  I think we should rotate a division of troops back from Europe to America and just tell Europe they'll have to make up the difference. I've read that some countries have already promised Mattis they're going to raise the percent.  That would be nice.  We'll see what happens. I hope you keep your word but frankly I thinks its just talk as usual.    Hopefully Trump won't let it slide like past presidents.

pegelli

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #259 on: June 03, 2017, 07:53:10 am »

Additional, I assume it costs us more even in peacetime when Europe slides on the 2%, because the US Defense Department most calculate how many European resources there are currently.  If it's less than required for a proper defense, then we've been paying the difference. 
There's no data to substantiate this as far as I know. Even you say it's an assumption.

Secondly, a deal from 2014 to move up to 2% in 10 years is something totally different then demanding and calculating 30 years back as if the 2% has been a agreed commitment from the start and then sending a pseudo invoice for that. That's childish, uncalled for and counterproductive and the main point I'm objecting against. It's just a big mouth to get more support at home and as a secundary objective to get more orders for the US military industry but it has very little to do with the actual defense situation in Europe.
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