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Author Topic: Skepticism about Climate Change  (Read 213820 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #220 on: May 31, 2017, 12:25:08 pm »

http://ktla.com/2017/05/30/mammoth-mountain-still-has-so-much-snow-that-itll-be-open-into-august/

"Mammoth Mountain still has so much snow after a near record-breaking winter that it will be open into August, the ski resort announced."

The extremes will become more extreme, and the average temperature will increase.

Retreat of Glaciers in Glacier National Park
https://www.usgs.gov/centers/norock/science/retreat-glaciers-glacier-national-park?qt-science_center_objects=1#qt-science_center_objects

"In Glacier National Park (GNP) some effects of climate change are strikingly clear. Glaciers are melting, and many glaciers have already disappeared. The rapid retreat of these small alpine glaciers reflects changes in recent climate as glaciers respond to altered temperature and precipitation. It has been estimated that there were approximately 150 glaciers present in 1850, around the end of the Little Ice Age and most glaciers were still present in 1910 when the park was established. In 2015, measurements of glacier area indicate that there were 25 remaining glaciers larger than 25 acres, the size criteria used by USGS researchers to define a glacier."

Ignorance is not skepticism, it is stupid.

Cheers,
Bart
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #221 on: May 31, 2017, 03:39:27 pm »

How is all that caused by weather patterns around the world, not in just a few areas of the world?

How do you prove CO2 amounts in the atmosphere create cold fronts, high/low caps, directional winds, huge moisture charged heated weather masses from El Nino & La Ninia patterns pushed across land masses by jet stream forces that affects humidity, air pressure and temperature differently across isolated areas across the world?

I have not seen any science to connect how it changes weather. Ice melting? Yeah, it's hot in different parts of the world at different times of the year and changes constantly across 100's of years. No one can live long enough to prove causality if we can't predict what the weather will be like two weeks from now.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 10:43:39 pm by Tim Lookingbill »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #222 on: May 31, 2017, 05:47:17 pm »

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/05/the-ghost-of-climate-change-future/528471/

In the meantime, an even bigger king tide than the ones in April and May is forecast for June.


EDIT:
Toronto is not faring much better.
The total rainfall for April and May has been double what is normally seen. 232 millimetres in 2017 compared to 125 millimetres on average.
From Jan. 1 to May 31, two thirds of the days have had precipitation (that's higher than Ireland), making it the wettest first five months on record in Toronto.

So the last time it was this high was in 1905.  Before most of the CO2 and global warming really got started by humans even assuming this is true. 

So records are always being broken.  Maybe it was worse 200 years ago, or 1 million years ago.  You're assuming cause and effect on supposition.  Anyway I think you should cut your driving in half to help the situation.  Just in case.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/05/the-ghost-of-climate-change-future/528471/

LesPalenik

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #223 on: May 31, 2017, 06:03:27 pm »

So the last time it was this high was in 1905.  Before most of the CO2 and global warming really got started by humans even assuming this is true. 

So records are always being broken.  Maybe it was worse 200 years ago, or 1 million years ago.  You're assuming cause and effect on supposition.  Anyway I think you should cut your driving in half to help the situation.  Just in case.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/05/the-ghost-of-climate-change-future/528471/

Alan, I didn't assume anything. CO2 is just one element which affects the climate. FYI, I already cut my driving to less than 1/3 of much I used to drive before. I also drive slower than I used to! I even gave up the beef, pork, and poultry to help to cut the environmental pollution. However, some extreme things are happening all over, and those changes are coming mighty fast!
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #224 on: May 31, 2017, 11:23:52 pm »

Alan, I didn't assume anything. CO2 is just one element which affects the climate. FYI, I already cut my driving to less than 1/3 of much I used to drive before. I also drive slower than I used to! I even gave up the beef, pork, and poultry to help to cut the environmental pollution. However, some extreme things are happening all over, and those changes are coming mighty fast!
Les,  My driving has increased.  My wife and I  use to live in Queens in NYC.  Although we had two cars and both drove to work, we drove less than now.  Although we're retired now, we moved to New Jersey in farm country.  We're driving a lot more.  The closest store in 2 miles away.  Most are a lot more. I was checking on world driving habits and I see that in Canada where you live, we are pretty much equal.  Australia too,  I think many Canadians are like Americans and like big cars, SUV's, and do drive more.  America is a wide open, big country.  So is Canada and Australia.   Americans grew up in suburbia and rural areas where you have to drive more to get around.  Europe has all these little towns and everything is closer together.  You can walk a lot.  Gas is very expensive there so Americans who can pay less favor the bigger but less fuel efficient vehicles.  Americans like their cars big and fast.  Politicians who want to take away those cars are not popular.  What can I say?  It should be our only fault. 

rodney.dugmore

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #225 on: June 01, 2017, 02:22:51 am »

Now that the orange idiot has skipped the climate change agreement > all other nations should impose a carbon tax on all goods imported from La La land !
That would be the appropriate response a fair deal I would call it !
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #226 on: June 01, 2017, 10:01:23 am »

Now that the orange idiot has skipped the climate change agreement > all other nations should impose a carbon tax on all goods imported from La La land !
That would be the appropriate response a fair deal I would call it !

Taxing the polluters is inevitable, and they will already be economically disadvantaged because they will eventually have to buy the knowhow that is being gained by the renewable energy innovators in the rest of the world. Fortunately, many in the USA (like the state of California and others) are ignoring the President because they are already saying goodbye to fossil fuel, or are at least switching to lesser polluting variants.

If Trump follows through, we'll know more in some 5 hours from now, then some sort of carbon based taxing will be inevitable. Things like coal are only cheap if one disregards the true cost (including excess CO2 production and other pollutants).

As long as more CO2 is pumped into the already disturbed equilibrium than it can absorb in the natural carbon cycle, then climate effects will cost lots of money as well (with amongst others, damage to infrastructure, irreversible change to nature that feeds us, and loss of human life). The bill for the extra damage caused by the USA will be presented, and paid (and the cost goes up as remedies are postponed).

Cheers,
Bart
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Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #227 on: June 01, 2017, 11:37:25 pm »

Things like coal are only cheap if one disregards the true cost (including excess CO2 production and other pollutants).

There's an element of truth there, and China, and other developing countries have capitalized on this factor of disregarding the environmental damage and atmospheric pollution that can result from mining and burning coal.

They have disregarded this environmental pollution for the perceived benefits that flow from cheap energy, such as rapid economic development and raising the masses out of poverty. Clean energy from coal is more expensive. However, when one takes into consideration the benefits of the reliability of electricity supply 24 hours a day, the latest Ultra-Supercritical coal-fired power stations, are still currently cheaper than most of the alternatives, and as clean as matters.

However, I am aware there are many confused individuals who seem incapable of understanding that CO2 is not a pollutant, but is a clear, odorless gas which is essential for all life, and at current levels does a better job of helping to green our planet and increase agricultural production, than lower levels of CO2 would.

On the one hand, we slash down huge areas of natural forest for agricultural purposes, and on the other hand, our emissions of CO2 help the remaining forests grow more vigorously, which at least partially compensates for mankind's destruction of the forests.

If we are going to consider the total costs of all the negatives associated with fossil fuels, for the purpose of cost comparisons, then we should also take into consideration all the positives, and also the alternative 'best practices' that modern technologies make possible. Mining of Lithium for batteries, and various rare-earth metals, also can result in environmental damage, which should not be allowed.

Some waste products of coal-burning should be considered as assets. Fly ash has been used for years as an ingredient in concrete and road building. Depending on the quality of the fly ash, it can also be used to improve soils for agriculture.
http://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=ajar.2010.1.14

If we use our imagination we should be able to devise synergistic industries whereby, for example, a coal-fired power station is purposefully  situated in an area where the soil quality is poor. The fly ash could then be used to improve the soil in the surrounding area to make it suitable for agriculture, and the CO2 emissions from the power station could be wafted over the crops, day and night, to increase growth and reduce the crops' need for water.


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Chairman Bill

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #228 on: June 02, 2017, 03:48:10 am »

How scientists know climate change is happening

Of course, the US Idiot-in-Chief knows better. Maybe the magic word 'covfefe' will solve all the world's ills & save us from impending doom. Or maybe Tim Walberg's invisible magic friend will save the day. Who knows? Personally, I'm banking on the Tooth Fairy extending her remit & hovering up all that atmospheric carbon. Yeah for abject idiocy!

Rob C

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #229 on: June 02, 2017, 04:29:38 am »

The problem, really, is one of polarization of thought. It's assumed to be either or - a digital reflection of the world today.

I'm certain that the world itself produces a huge array of pollutants and that it was ever so; I'm as certain that adding to the volume of these substances does us no favours.

It's unfortunate that vested interests take over reality - no, are the reality - and that the consequences are forgotten for short-term expediency and profit. If you alter the perspective from the global to the personal, you could suggest that yes, we all know that we are going to find ourselves tits up and cold as stone, but should that prevent us from seeking medical help during our good, breathing years?

And as if to prove the point, there are those sects who believe just that, the perfect mirrors to the Trumpster industrial theology.

As for all that free CO2 (how does one lower the 2 on a keyboard?) gas helpìng along the forests, that's inverted thought. That free CO2 should never have been free in the first place. It should be safely tucked away within the soil and the trees that are being lost through yet more short-term expediency. Had those forests been preserved, the excess CO2 naturally already in the air would be being munched by said grateful trees, pumping back oxygen for our pleasure. One does not help a bad situation become a good one by constantly reducing the positives and thus expanding the role of the negatives but pretending that, somehow, the circle is actually a creature on three legs. (Though I can just about grasp how that could pass for clear thinking on such a forum as LuLa.)

Rob C

Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #230 on: June 02, 2017, 09:05:38 am »

How scientists know climate change is happening

Of course, the US Idiot-in-Chief knows better. Maybe the magic word 'covfefe' will solve all the world's ills & save us from impending doom. Or maybe Tim Walberg's invisible magic friend will save the day. Who knows? Personally, I'm banking on the Tooth Fairy extending her remit & hovering up all that atmospheric carbon. Yeah for abject idiocy!

You don't even  have to be a scientist to know that climate is changing. Climate is always changing. Everything is always changing. That's the nature of reality.

The issues are:
(1) Is climate changing for the worse, regarding human well-being and security?

(2) Do we fully understand all the processes that influence climate change?

(3) Is it possible that the slight warming caused by CO2 increases might protect us from a future Little Ice age, and therefore ultimately be of benefit to mankind?

(4) Is it likely that incorrectly identifying the causes of the current warming period, and demonizing CO2, will exacerbate world poverty by increasing the cost of energy, which in turn could cause greater conflict and wars?

(5) Is it likely that diverting resources from projects that can protect us from natural, extreme weather events, in order to tackle a less certain future change in climate, will have more disastrous consequences in terms of lives lost and damage to infrastructure?

Programs based upon scare tactics are likely to be seriously flawed.
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Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #231 on: June 02, 2017, 09:29:28 am »

As for all that free CO2 gas helpìng along the forests, that's inverted thought. That free CO2 should never have been free in the first place. It should be safely tucked away within the soil ......
Rob C

How do you know that, Rob? Did God Almighty speak to you personally?

There seems to be some very strange idea that we should try to live on the planet Earth without influencing it at all. We are an evolved product of the Earth. Every creature influences its environment. Whether such influence is for better or worse is a matter of opinion, which varies according to the survival interests of a particular species, and its location and circumstances.

Considering all the problems that mankind currently faces, such as obesity, terrorism, disgraceful poverty, real pollution and destruction of the environment, and a failure to protect many people from the effects of natural, extreme weather events, the uncertain problems of rising CO2 levels, based on uncertain computer models, are no more than a distraction from the real and predictable problems we face.
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Chairman Bill

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #232 on: June 02, 2017, 10:09:38 am »

How do you know that, Rob? Did God Almighty speak to you personally?

This 'God' character doesn't exist. If it 'spoke' to Rob, I would suggest he seek psychiatric help, just in case it gets any worse.

As to Rob's point - that extra carbon in the atmosphere, is largely due to us digging up coal & drilling for oil, then burning the bloody stuff. Hence the massive rise in atmospheric carbon & the consequent 'greenhouse effect' giving rise to rapidly increasing global temperatures.

Rob C

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #233 on: June 02, 2017, 10:10:11 am »

How do you know that, Rob? Did God Almighty speak to you personally?

There seems to be some very strange idea that we should try to live on the planet Earth without influencing it at all. We are an evolved product of the Earth. Every creature influences its environment. Whether such influence is for better or worse is a matter of opinion, which varies according to the survival interests of a particular species, and its location and circumstances.

Considering all the problems that mankind currently faces, such as obesity, terrorism, disgraceful poverty, real pollution and destruction of the environment, and a failure to protect many people from the effects of natural, extreme weather events, the uncertain problems of rising CO2 levels, based on uncertain computer models, are no more than a distraction from the real and predictable problems we face.

That's an opinion, no more no less; maybe GA told you after He spoke with me...

Rob

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #234 on: June 02, 2017, 10:35:43 am »

This 'God' character doesn't exist. If it 'spoke' to Rob, I would suggest he seek psychiatric help, just in case it gets any worse.

As to Rob's point - that extra carbon in the atmosphere, is largely due to us digging up coal & drilling for oil, then burning the bloody stuff. Hence the massive rise in atmospheric carbon & the consequent 'greenhouse effect' giving rise to rapidly increasing global temperatures.

And no models are needed to see the accelerating trend.


And no, it hasn't been accelerating like that for 800,000 years, and yes, it's due to manmade pollution with CO2.

You'll need to look at the top right to find the current levels.

And yes, CO2 is pollution, look up the definition:
according to Merriam-Webster dictionary: the action of polluting especially by environmental contamination with man-made waste;
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pollution
according to Wikipedia: Pollution is the introduction of contaminants into the natural environment that cause adverse change
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollution

I'll leave the definition of Contamination to the readers of this thread because the naysayers will not agree with logic anyway. No need to waste my time on them. And the definition of waste ...

Only if we are serious and want to change the situation, we need models to see how much impact and effect the different actions will have, so we can first tackle the more influential ones for efficiency. The models are reasonably accurate, but whether man will change its behavior is the great variable in all the equations, as we've seen with Trump.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: June 02, 2017, 10:39:16 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #235 on: June 02, 2017, 11:33:33 am »

The Paris Agreement is just another way to extract more money from US tax payers while the rest of the world winds up sliding on their promises. Enough already.

Now that America is out, who wants to bet that the rest of the world will pull out too blaming the US?  Of course, if this is a real issue, they should still be in favor of the Agreement since 80% of the so called effect will still be operable.   

pegelli

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #236 on: June 02, 2017, 11:58:59 am »

The Paris Agreement is just another way to extract more money from US tax payers while the rest of the world winds up sliding on their promises. Enough already.

Now that America is out, who wants to bet that the rest of the world will pull out too blaming the US?  Of course, if this is a real issue, they should still be in favor of the Agreement since 80% of the so called effect will still be operable.
Alan, that's double bullshit:
Care to explain how the Paris agreement was designed to extract more money from US taxpayers? Because my bet is that leaving the agreement is going to be more costly for the US taxpayer then staying in.
Secondly Europe, China and Russia have all said they will stay in, so the bet you're proposing is quite risky.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #237 on: June 02, 2017, 12:10:54 pm »

Alan, that's double bullshit:
Care to explain how the Paris agreement was designed to extract more money from US taxpayers? Because my bet is that leaving the agreement is going to be more costly for the US taxpayer then staying in.
Secondly Europe, China and Russia have all said they will stay in, so the bet you're proposing is quite risky.
Well I'm a gambler. :)

Staying in and contributing money are different things.   Also, since the US won't contribute, that saves the taxpayers money.  Free markets will tell American producers when to make more energy efficient products and which ones.  The Paris Accord is just another way of having a command economy mandating certain products rather than allowing free markets determine them.  Reminds me of the Soviet Union's five-year plans.  Look where they are now. 

Chairman Bill

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #238 on: June 02, 2017, 12:32:53 pm »

Wow. So much ignorance of facts, all in one place. Astounding.

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #239 on: June 02, 2017, 12:46:52 pm »

Please explain my ignorance. What facts didI I get wrong?
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