Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 ... 72   Go Down

Author Topic: Skepticism about Climate Change  (Read 213860 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #160 on: May 10, 2017, 11:16:30 am »

This crap changes practically like the weather. First eggs were healthy, then it was proven -- settled science -- they were deadly, then it was discovered -- settled science -- they were healthy again. Fat was deadly -- settled science, then it was healthy -- settled science. This kind of horse hockey goes on and on and it's always "scientific." Eventually life ends. Get used to it.

Russ, whether food or climate, the important lesson is that it aren't necessarily Scientists who say such things, but social media/blogs/etc. who misrepresent the Scientific findings/consensus, or even observations. Denying Scientific studies, because blogs don't understand (or even read but copy each other's) publications is perhaps as stupid as putting blind faith in such blogs (or denying Scientific consensus).

BTW, there are different ways of reaching the end ..., I'd rather do that a long time from now in good health and in my sleep.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #161 on: May 10, 2017, 11:45:27 am »

... as stupid as ...denying Scientific consensus...

"When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks."

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #162 on: May 10, 2017, 12:16:46 pm »

"When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks."

No, that's a dogma, not agreement after an open process where Scientists try to proof a Hypothesis or method wrong.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #163 on: May 10, 2017, 01:20:35 pm »

Wow! Then I must stop consuming it immediately. Or maybe I should ask first about that little weaseling word "excessive"?
"Excessive" is indeed not a precise term. Current recommendations state that about 70g or 2 1/2 ounces of meat will supply all your protein requirements. Of course, you can get the same protein amount also from eating beans, tofu or some other vegetables. Typical American eats on average 12 ounces of meat. And in that amount, without any extra charge, he gets also a few milligrams of steroids, antibiotics, artificial coloring, fats, and some other unnatural components.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/08/13/too-much-protein-diets-_n_1772987.html

All this bad stuff effects people in different ways, and the choice of diet is not the only factor influencing your health and longevity. There are many meat eaters who live longer than some vegetarians. Perhaps the most famous example of this was Steve Jobs, who's been a vegan most of his life. Unfortunately, many vegans and vegetarians replace meat with fats, sugars, and other unhealthy things which may indeed be less healthy than occassional organic meat.
Why did Steve Jobs die?

Another example on the other end of the spectrum is Helmut Schmidt, the ex-chancellor of Germany who smoked 60 cigarettes a day, and led a healthy life until he died in 2013 at the age of 96. Perhaps the tobacco industry should have used his example as a best evidence of smoking as a requirement for a long life. Maybe the problem with most deaths from smoking was that those poor bastards didn't smoke enough. :o
On the other hand, there is Bill Clinton, who after a quadruple bypass went totally vegan and he seems to be doing just fine. His personal doctors and advisors are Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn and Dr. Dean Ornish, whom I listed in the previous post. “It changed my life,” he said. "I might not be around if I hadn’t become a vegan. It’s great."
http://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/270806-bill-clinton-going-vegan-has-kept-me-alive

Quote
This crap changes practically like the weather. First eggs were healthy, then it was proven -- settled science -- they were deadly, then it was discovered -- settled science -- they were healthy again. Fat was deadly -- settled science, then it was healthy -- settled science. This kind of horse hockey goes on and on and it's always "scientific." Eventually life ends. Get used to it.
Indeed, this crap changes constantly. Not only with time, but also depending whose books you read. There are enough charlatans who are peddling their latest snake oils and diet inventions. One of the most infamous examples was Dr. Atkins, an overweight physician with his high-protein and low-carb diet who had a history of heart problems and died in 2003. His diet empire which at one time employed 87 people, went into bankruptcy a short time after.

Fortunately, there is more solid information on the subject available now than ever before. There are many serious publications and scientific research studies which supply reliable data and clear conclusions about negative effects of animal protein consumption.

I am not going to get into pissing contests and try to convince individuals who have their strong opinions on this subject. Enjoy what you are doing and eating!
For the people who have open mind and want to do something about their health, I supplied several references in my previous posts that point to a wealth of useful information, either in the form of books or as free online videos.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 02:21:56 pm by LesPalenik »
Logged

RSL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16046
    • http://www.russ-lewis.com
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #164 on: May 10, 2017, 02:21:01 pm »

I am not going to get into pissing contests. . .

No? And what, exactly, do you think this thread is?
Logged
Russ Lewis  www.russ-lewis.com.

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #165 on: May 10, 2017, 02:36:34 pm »

I mean, I don't need to convince anybody. I just provided information to readers who were not aware or might be interested in learning more about the negative effects of animal protein consumption.
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #166 on: May 10, 2017, 06:04:10 pm »

Why do people accept when scientists change their minds about food and diet but not about climate.   Can't they're be room for revision there too?

Farmer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2848
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #167 on: May 10, 2017, 06:14:46 pm »

Sure - when most of the climate scientists change their mind, we'll accept it.

With regard food?

Eat food, mostly vegetables, not too much.
Logged
Phil Brown

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #168 on: May 10, 2017, 06:35:42 pm »

...when most of the climate scientists change their mind, we'll accept it.

It is a scientific fact that it takes only 10% of radical, dedicated activists (or, as I call them, social terrorists) to turn a minority opinion into majority.

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #169 on: May 10, 2017, 07:20:06 pm »

It is a scientific fact that it takes only 10% of radical, dedicated activists (or, as I call them, social terrorists) to turn a minority opinion into majority.

Sometimes, it takes full 46.1% (or 62,979,879 activists).
Logged

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #170 on: May 10, 2017, 07:47:29 pm »

It is a scientific fact that it takes only 10% of radical, dedicated activists (or, as I call them, social terrorists) to turn a minority opinion into majority.

Source? Shouldn't be difficult, it being a scientific fact ...

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #172 on: May 10, 2017, 08:03:57 pm »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/phys.org/news/2011-07-minority-scientists-ideas.amp

Thanks.

"Scientists at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute have found that when just 10 percent of the population holds an unshakable belief, their belief will always be adopted by the majority of the society."

Unsurprisingly, not Scientists (accustomed to the Scientific process of separating fact from assumption), but gullible "population".

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #173 on: May 10, 2017, 08:30:51 pm »

Thanks.

"Scientists at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute have found that when just 10 percent of the population holds an unshakable belief, their belief will always be adopted by the majority of the society."

Unsurprisingly, not Scientists (accustomed to the Scientific process of separating fact from assumption), but gullible "population".

Cheers,
Bart

Population in the statistical sense, not colloquial. In that sense, the population of scientist needs only 10% of them to be radical and active in order to change the opinion into majority (among scientists).

Besides, when was the last time the 10% of "gullible" population changed anything? It takes dedicated, devoted, deliberate action to impose a minority opinion onto the majority

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #174 on: May 11, 2017, 08:00:27 am »

Population in the statistical sense, not colloquial. In that sense, the population of scientist needs only 10% of them to be radical and active in order to change the opinion into majority (among scientists).

Not quite, here is the study in question, and it refers to sociological processes in society, not specifically amongst scientists:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/21ce/52e518edef55a4eb05edb19286132c5eb1a6.pdf

In closing, we have demonstrated here the existence of a tipping point at which the initial majority opinion of a network switches quickly to that of a consistent and inflexible minority. There are several historical precedents for such events, for example, the suffragette movement in the early 20th century, and the rise of the American civil-rights movement that started shortly after the size of the African-American population crossed the 10% mark.

So, a population as in all the inhabitants of a particular place. Not scientists that follow the scientific method with peer review.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4344
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #175 on: May 11, 2017, 08:14:25 am »

So now they feel that high fat from dairy products are not bad for you.  That's what my heart doctor told me.  It's the carbs. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2017/05/09/full-fat-dairy-stuff----cheese-yogurt-and-so----isnt-bad-you-study-finds/101461372/
A lot of years ago I was an invited speaker at a conference on pharmaceutical toxicity testing.  On the final day we we were having lunch and I was sitting with one of the other speaker, a well known toxicology professor from Michigan State.  I noted that he had chocolate cake for desert followed by a double espresso.  I asked him wasn't he concerned about all the carbs and possible carcinogens in what he was eating.  His response was classic, "...I follow the rules my grandmother gave me when I was growing up.  Eat a lot of different types of foods and keep the quantities moderate." 

One can find studies advocating almost any kind of diet.  The key thing is to make sure that your caloric intake is either equal to or less than the number of calories you burn each day. 
Logged

kers

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4391
    • Pieter Kers
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #176 on: May 11, 2017, 08:43:35 am »

Why do people accept when scientists change their minds about food and diet but not about climate.   Can't they're be room for revision there too?

you mean like gravity?
Logged
Pieter Kers
www.beeld.nu/la

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #177 on: May 11, 2017, 10:40:34 am »

Not quite, here is the study in question, and it refers to sociological processes in society, not specifically amongst scientists... Not scientists that follow the scientific method with peer review.

Once again, you are treating science and scientists in a religious manner: god-like, infallible, unquestionable. In reality, they are just people, like the rest of us. They cheat, compete, sabotage each other, collude, respond to (political) incentives and pressure, etc.

Besides, note that in their conclusion they are talking about a network (any network), while the societal examples are just that, examples:

Quote
...the initial majority opinion of a network switches quickly to that of a consistent and inflexible minority...

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #178 on: May 11, 2017, 11:06:14 am »

Once again, you are treating science and scientists in a religious manner: god-like, infallible, unquestionable. In reality, they are just people, like the rest of us. They cheat, compete, sabotage each other, collude, respond to (political) incentives and pressure, etc.

Besides, note that in their conclusion they are talking about a network (any network), while the societal examples are just that, examples:

Slobodan, I understand what you are saying, but the Scientific method has little to do with personal bias, in fact, it is an excellent method to prevent just that. Nothing to do with treating scientists in a religious manner, they too are fallible and that's why the papers are put up for peer review (as an invitation to shoot holes in the method/hypothesis/conclusion, if possible).

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. And observations that can independently be repeated by others are pretty conclusive, CO2 is rising, Global temperature is rising. Of course one needs to understand what it is that is being measured.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 11:09:18 am by BartvanderWolf »
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Robert Roaldi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4769
    • Robert's Photos
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #179 on: May 11, 2017, 10:24:40 pm »

This CBC IDEAS podcast is erudite, thought-out, intelligent, hopeful and non-confrontational, an hour-long polite conversation from someone in a position to know something, so the odds that he will be listened to are slim. I include it anyway, just in case.
Logged
--
Robert
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 ... 72   Go Up