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Author Topic: Skepticism about Climate Change  (Read 213784 times)

pegelli

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1060 on: September 14, 2017, 02:44:42 pm »

I said they can say whatever they want.  However,   I still have the right to say it's impolite or politically expedient for them to take their position.   After all,  I also have the same right to say whatever I want too.  Unless you want to shut down my right of free speech.
No, obviously you can say what you want, but these kind of arguments are not very useful in this discussion. If you dismiss it because of who said it (or where they are located) rather then what was said basically shows you've run out of coherent arguments to defend your case. Is that really what you want to do? But with the right of free speech comes the right to blurt out non-sensical arguments, no question. Wether you still engage in a useful discussion that way remains to be seen, but I doubt it.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1061 on: September 14, 2017, 02:56:52 pm »

Ah, i knew there was an inherent balance in there somewhere:
Global warming leads to less coffee.
Less coffee is less active humans.
Less human activity leads to less greenhouse gas.

Problem solved, end of thread!

;-)

Please do not joke about having less coffee.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1062 on: September 14, 2017, 02:59:52 pm »

Especially not in the Coffee Corner
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1063 on: September 14, 2017, 03:17:31 pm »

Please do not joke about having less coffee.

There might be less of it, but it will be stronger 😉

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1064 on: September 14, 2017, 05:09:45 pm »

No, obviously you can say what you want, but these kind of arguments are not very useful in this discussion. If you dismiss it because of who said it (or where they are located) rather then what was said basically shows you've run out of coherent arguments to defend your case. Is that really what you want to do? But with the right of free speech comes the right to blurt out non-sensical arguments, no question. Wether you still engage in a useful discussion that way remains to be seen, but I doubt it.

Who says something and where they live and what taxes they pay are important to their ideas.  When someone doesn't pay taxes for something, it's easy for them to be a big spender.  Listeners should know these things.  Often posters speak as if they're Americans, when they're not.  Again, listeners should know what nationality they are as credibility and other biases like culture and nationality enter the argument.  I'm sorry you don't think these things important.  But to me and others they are. 

jtmiller

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1065 on: September 14, 2017, 05:26:26 pm »

What baffles me is why people who use the internet, drive cars, have electricity at home, fly in airplanes, watch TV, obtain modern medicine (all of which required science to make possible) chose to decide that science related to climate change is somehow different and wrong.

The overwhelming evidence and consensus in peer reviewed journals is that humans are causing climate change that will within a century make life miserable across the entire planet if not dealt with immediately.

The few "scientific skeptics" cited (approximately 38 papers in number) have been thoroughly discredited.

jim
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1066 on: September 14, 2017, 05:29:06 pm »

Bahahaha!

Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1067 on: September 14, 2017, 05:50:25 pm »

We don't see (at least not visually, not from outside) malnourishment in the people, whether it comes from eating highly processed food, nutrition-poor produce or from ingesting all kinds of pills with negative side effects. However, the general malnourishment is demonstrated by all kinds of modern ilnesses and decreased quality of life for many people. Obesity, diabetes, kidney disease and neurological conditions like Alzheimer's are all on the rise, both in the US and in much of the developed world.

One thing that we see everywhere in the western world today is a large proportion of obese people which is definitely not a healthy sign.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/18/adults-metabolically-healthy-past-generations_n_3071549.html

But that level of malnutrition you've outlined can't be proven to source back to tomatoes and other foods grown in greenhouses. That was my original point about the "science" used to indicate that as the cause.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1068 on: September 14, 2017, 06:01:12 pm »

What baffles me is why people who use the internet, drive cars, have electricity at home, fly in airplanes, watch TV, obtain modern medicine (all of which required science to make possible) chose to decide that science related to climate change is somehow different and wrong.

The overwhelming evidence and consensus in peer reviewed journals is that humans are causing climate change that will within a century make life miserable across the entire planet if not dealt with immediately.

The few "scientific skeptics" cited (approximately 38 papers in number) have been thoroughly discredited.

jim

We deniers are slackers, Neanderthals and knuckle draggers, that's why.  It's all clarified in the previous 53 pages if you have a chance to read them. 

LesPalenik

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1069 on: September 14, 2017, 07:25:02 pm »

But that level of malnutrition you've outlined can't be proven to source back to tomatoes and other foods grown in greenhouses. That was my original point about the "science" used to indicate that as the cause.

I agree that people won't die from eating greenhouse-grown tomatoes. There are much worse things many ingest every day.
The indisputable fact is that the tomatoes and blackberries from my own backyard taste infinitely better than anything I can buy in a supermarket.
Difference in the taste is easy to to discern. I was wondering how much difference in the nutritional value is there between the fast-growth and traditionally grown food.

Apparently, there is also a huge difference in the potency and relief effects between the old-fashioned marijuana and the new hybrid varieties.
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jtmiller

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1070 on: September 14, 2017, 07:40:51 pm »

We deniers are slackers, Neanderthals and knuckle draggers, that's why.  It's all clarified in the previous 53 pages if you have a chance to read them.

Thanks for the summary. I've read them.

jim
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1071 on: September 14, 2017, 07:53:26 pm »

Bahahaha!
Can you reference a reliable source for that comment, Slobodan?   ;)
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Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1072 on: September 15, 2017, 02:00:13 am »

What baffles me is why people who use the internet, drive cars, have electricity at home, fly in airplanes, watch TV, obtain modern medicine (all of which required science to make possible) chose to decide that science related to climate change is somehow different and wrong.

I'll try to explain it again so that newcomers don't have to wade through 53 pages.  ;)

The fundamental processes of science that have produced amazing results over the past few centuries, rely upon situations where hypotheses and theories can be tested repeatedly under controlled conditions during relatively short periods of time, so that after the results have been examined, further experiments can be conducted under different conditions in order to verify or falsify a particular theory or prediction.

A classic example that features in high schools, is the ancient Aristotelian theory that heavy objects (of the same material) fall at a faster rate than lighter objects. People accepted that theory as true for many centuries, partly because Aristotle had a great reputation for being a brilliant and knowledgeable person (how could he be wrong!), and partly because the scientific methodology of 'verification and falsification through controlled experiments' had not been firmly established in ancient Greece.

The story of Galileo dropping at the same precise moment, two different sized metal balls from the leaning Tower of Pisa, and observing that they both hit the ground at the same time, illustrates this fundamental principle of the scientific methodology.

When modern drugs are deigned to cure specific illnesses, there's a long and expensive process of repeated experimentation that is required before the drug is considered to be effective and safe. Even then, as we should all know, it is sometimes later discovered that certain drugs that were initially thought to be safe, have long-term side effects that are sometimes very serious.

The problems and complexities relating to the health of the human body is a good analogy which puts into perspective the even greater problems and complexity of climate change and the health of our planet.

CO2 is a natural and essential substance, just as certain minerals, vitamins and complex compounds from herbs and various foods, are essential for human health.
However, those who are interested in their own health will no doubt be aware of the tremendous uncertainty about the benefits of precise dosages of certain vitamins and/or natural compounds in certain foods which are claimed to have certain 'long-term' health benefits.

Why is this? Why the uncertainty? Why do so many supplements and 'health-food' products state on the packaging, 'May help in the prevention or cure of.....whatever?

The answer is, because the situation does not lend itself to the rigorous application of the scientific methodology of controlled experimentation, as a result of the complexity and multitude of the various factors that can influence the results.

Let's consider the example of a very common supplement such as Vitamin C. There's a recommended minimum dosage which is known with certainty to be essential for human health, to prevent illnesses such as scurvy, and so on. Such dosages are very small, such as 35 to 75mg per day which can easily be obtained from a moderate amount of fruit and vegetables

However, the average Vitamin C supplementary tablet in Australia is 500 mg. Some are 1,000 mg (1 gram). There are claims by certain, qualified, health specialists, that increased dosages of Vitamin C have an antioxidant effect in removing 'free radicals' and protecting the body from various ailments such as cardiovascular disease and cancer.

This is not claimed to be a sudden fix, like injecting someone with an antibiotic to get rid of a bacterial infection, but is a long-term protection over many years.
Considering all the numerous factors which influence human health, such as the complexity of different diets, exercise, environmental conditions, activities in general, mental stress, genetic variability among individuals, and different belief systems, how could any group of scientists determine with certainty the long-term benefits of taking a regular dosage of, say, 500mg of Vitamin C or  more, per day?

Let me give you a hint, for the benefit of the scientifically illiterate.  ;)

The scientists would have to organize at least two groups of experimental subjects who were all identical twins. Both groups would have to be on the same diet, engage in the same exercise and activities, and live in the same environment, because all these factors can influence health. The only difference in diet between the two groups would be that one of the groups would be taking a 'real' Vitamin C supplement, and the other group would be given a placebo Vitamin C supplement, to ensure that belief systems did not influence the results.

Since conditions such as heart disease, or cancer, or high blood pressure, and so on, take many years to develop, this controlled experiment with twins would have to continue for many decades, say 40 years, under controlled conditions that were closely monitored to ensure that no cheating took place.

Now obviously it's not practical, or even ethical, to devise such experiments. However, the most rigorous demands of the scientific methodology not only require that such experiments be conducted before certainty can be claimed, but also be repeated in different circumstances. That is, changing one of the variables, such as the amount and/or type of exercise requirements imposed on the groups, or a shift from a mainly vegetarian diet to a more meat-based diet, or a shift from a clean environment in the countryside to a more polluted environment in the city, and so on.

Now, using a bit of imagination, if you can, try relating the effects of Vitamin C on human health, to the effects of CO2 on the health of the planet, bearing in mind that we don't have various twin planets to experiment with.

Can you see the problem, or do I need to go on.. and on.... and on.  ;)


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pegelli

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1073 on: September 15, 2017, 02:14:04 am »

Who says something and where they live and what taxes they pay are important to their ideas.  When someone doesn't pay taxes for something, it's easy for them to be a big spender.  Listeners should know these things.  Often posters speak as if they're Americans, when they're not.  Again, listeners should know what nationality they are as credibility and other biases like culture and nationality enter the argument.  I'm sorry you don't think these things important.  But to me and others they are.
You're totally missing my point. If you think it's important for readers to know where posters come from by all means say it. But that's not what you're doing, you're dismissing their ideas not because of what they say but because who says it and where they come from without providing any counterarguments to their point. That's what I find whimpy and shows you don't want to seriously discuss the issue and ran out of logical arguments. Secondly I find it objectionable that you think if someone doesn't pay taxes in the US that his ideas for US policy options are worthless because of that. As I said before this gives away how you think, ill doers are ill deemers.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1074 on: September 15, 2017, 08:00:43 am »

The problems and complexities relating to the health of the human body is a good analogy which puts into perspective the even greater problems and complexity of climate change and the health of our planet.

CO2 is a natural and essential substance, just as certain minerals, vitamins and complex compounds from herbs and various foods, are essential for human health.
However, those who are interested in their own health will no doubt be aware of the tremendous uncertainty about the benefits of precise dosages of certain vitamins and/or natural compounds in certain foods which are claimed to have certain 'long-term' health benefits.

Why is this? Why the uncertainty? Why do so many supplements and 'health-food' products state on the packaging, 'May help in the prevention or cure of.....whatever?

The answer is, because the situation does not lend itself to the rigorous application of the scientific methodology of controlled experimentation, as a result of the complexity and multitude of the various factors that can influence the results.

Let's consider the example of a very common supplement such as Vitamin C. There's a recommended minimum dosage which is known with certainty to be essential for human health, to prevent illnesses such as scurvy, and so on. Such dosages are very small, such as 35 to 75mg per day which can easily be obtained from a moderate amount of fruit and vegetables

Ray, I can only speak about the drug regulations in the United States.  Some years ago, dietary supplements were essentially 'deregulated' meaning no health claims could be made about them.  A disclaimer had to be present on the packaging and any advertising that was done.  For many of us who spent our careers in the pharmaceutical industry this legislation was quite troubling as we knew this would only open an avenue to the sale of 'snake oil.'  Clinical trials can and have been done on a variety of vitamins and other supplements.  Such trials are not inexpensive to conduct, but they do provide scientific evidence about the efficacy of the product in question.  I take the AREDS-2 vitamin supplement daily to prevent age related macular degeneration, a disabling eye condition that can lead to deteriorating vision.  The National Eye Institute sponsored a large clinical trial of the vitamin and anti-oxidant mixture ( https://nei.nih.gov/areds2 ) that contains Vitamin C, zinc, copper and a couple of plant-based compounds.  The trials showed that this mixture helps prevent further deterioration of the retina and my yearly retina scans show that in my case there has been no change.

Until the dietary supplement legislation in the US is changed, companies will continue to sell a variety of compounds that not only are not efficacious but might also have unknown side effects.  They don't want to spend the money to show their product/concoction works.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1075 on: September 15, 2017, 11:49:43 am »

You're totally missing my point. If you think it's important for readers to know where posters come from by all means say it. But that's not what you're doing, you're dismissing their ideas not because of what they say but because who says it and where they come from without providing any counterarguments to their point. That's what I find whimpy and shows you don't want to seriously discuss the issue and ran out of logical arguments. Secondly I find it objectionable that you think if someone doesn't pay taxes in the US that his ideas for US policy options are worthless because of that. As I said before this gives away how you think, ill doers are ill deemers.

There's an expression: "Put your money where your mouth is."  Which means its easy to tell others to buy things that don't cost you any money.  Without paying for something, the recommendation has little value.  It's like telling someone to go out an buy a top of the line Nikon system for $10,000.   A wonderful idea until you learn that the guy has $500 to spend.  So I'm dismissing a non-American's recommendation because he isn't paying the taxes to support it.  That is a logical argument.  In fact, without including a cost factor in deciding on things, the non-American's recommendation has practically no value at all.  I'll leave it to other readers to decide who's concept make more sense.

There's another reason why we should know the poster's nationality.  People have their own interests.  When  a non-American recommends to me an American that we should spend money on  renewables and reduce our dependence on carbon, I question his motives.  After all, if America switches to renewables, production costs for our products will go up as carbon is way cheaper than renewables currently.  That will make our products more expensive and less competitive to the non-American country's products.  He doesn't care about climate change as much as creating an environment where his country's products will sell better than ours.  His country gets richer as ours gets poorer.  A businessman would have to be crazy to take advice from his competitor.  That's why Trump got out of the Paris Accord.   It would make our products less competitive.  But you go ahead and institute renewables in Europe.  We'll benefit when your products are more expensive than ours. :)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1076 on: September 15, 2017, 11:55:51 am »

Can you reference a reliable source for that comment, Slobodan?   ;)

Sure. The guy who's signature motto is "When everybody thinks the same... nobody thinks." ;)

Consensus is quintessentially non-scientific. Unlike scepticism.

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1077 on: September 15, 2017, 12:01:01 pm »

Ray, I can only speak about the drug regulations in the United States.  Some years ago, dietary supplements were essentially 'deregulated' meaning no health claims could be made about them.  A disclaimer had to be present on the packaging and any advertising that was done.  For many of us who spent our careers in the pharmaceutical industry this legislation was quite troubling as we knew this would only open an avenue to the sale of 'snake oil.' ...

Why would you be opposed to laws that would require no claims being made about dietary supplements? 

pegelli

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1078 on: September 15, 2017, 12:18:49 pm »

There's an expression: "Put your money where your mouth is."  Which means its easy to tell others to buy things that don't cost you any money.  Without paying for something, the recommendation has little value.  It's like telling someone to go out an buy a top of the line Nikon system for $10,000.   A wonderful idea until you learn that the guy has $500 to spend.  So I'm dismissing a non-American's recommendation because he isn't paying the taxes to support it.  That is a logical argument.  In fact, without including a cost factor in deciding on things, the non-American's recommendation has practically no value at all.  I'll leave it to other readers to decide who's concept make more sense.

There's another reason why we should know the poster's nationality.  People have their own interests.  When  a non-American recommends to me an American that we should spend money on  renewables and reduce our dependence on carbon, I question his motives.  After all, if America switches to renewables, production costs for our products will go up as carbon is way cheaper than renewables currently.  That will make our products more expensive and less competitive to the non-American country's products.  He doesn't care about climate change as much as creating an environment where his country's products will sell better than ours.  His country gets richer as ours gets poorer.  A businessman would have to be crazy to take advice from his competitor.  That's why Trump got out of the Paris Accord.   It would make our products less competitive.  But you go ahead and institute renewables in Europe.  We'll benefit when your products are more expensive than ours. :)
This means I can't trust anything you say or recommend that doesn't not involve a US interest. I already had a hunch, but now I'm sure ;)
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #1079 on: September 15, 2017, 12:37:31 pm »

This means I can't trust anything you say or recommend that doesn't not involve a US interest. I already had a hunch, but now I'm sure ;)
Follow the money.   You know that. You're a smart guy.
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