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Author Topic: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling  (Read 2654 times)

Brad P

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ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« on: April 22, 2017, 02:48:15 AM »

I have been using the ColorChecker Passport for years and commend it highly.

I see that Colorite produces a "ColorChecker Digital SG" with many more color and contrast opportunities, and see that it's possible to create more powerful and realistic camera profiles.  I also see that X-Rite produces no software to implement its Digital SG product easily in camera profiles (as they do with the Passport) in any raw converter.  To X-rite today, the Digital SG product seems a scanner profiling tool only.

But not others.  At least one third party software provider seems to allow the digital SG to be used to generate camera profiles.  The one I've found does not seem to allow simple dual illuminate camera profiles, although I think I can generate a simple proxy for that in photoshop using opacity layers.

I also see about 5 color profiling subjects to be shot other than the ColorChecker Digital SG, the best maybe of which may be Hutch

I've searched this forum and others, see quite a number of people here on LuLa who have been far down this path before, and am hoping you might give a lift to the readers here. 

Brad P

ADDENDUM: 5/1/2017.  Some responses deviated a bit from the question, so I'm bumping this up from the bottom today.   

I tried reading the two posts referenced but soon realized I, and other readers, might hope to find a more easily implemented solution if one is available.   

I'm willing to put the effort into shooting the ColorChecker SG card as it demands, but am looking for (and not finding) any software company still in business that takes the SG results so I can output a DNG profile into Lightroom/CR.   There is one company (PictoColor Software) with a product that outputs ICC profiles, but ICC can't be used in the demosaicing process as could a DNG profile unless I switch to a raw converter other than Lightroom/CR.    Because I use Lightroom as a file management tool and have for a while, I really don't want to switch raw converters if there is another existing easy software answer.

Thanks

« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 08:11:12 PM by Brad P »
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Jack Hogan

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2017, 03:15:36 AM »

The SG in the name stands for Semi Gloss, which unfortunately for photographic applications means likely specular reflections, which have a tendency to mess profiles up.  I am no expert but I have read from experts here that unless one has a specific need in mind, in which case making one's own target with materials from typical subjects and measuring it with a spectrometer is ideal, more patches is not necessarily better.  In fact it can actually be worse, potentially forcing large stepwise corrections from one chromaticity to contiguous ones, which are not desirable.  For many applications fewer smoother corrections are often better than more sharper ones.  So for typical photography a CC24 is often plenty good.

Jack
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Doug Gray

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2017, 01:01:42 PM »

The SG in the name stands for Semi Gloss, which unfortunately for photographic applications means likely specular reflections, which have a tendency to mess profiles up.  I am no expert but I have read from experts here that unless one has a specific need in mind, in which case making one's own target with materials from typical subjects and measuring it with a spectrometer is ideal, more patches is not necessarily better.  In fact it can actually be worse, potentially forcing large stepwise corrections from one chromaticity to contiguous ones, which are not desirable.  For many applications fewer smoother corrections are often better than more sharper ones.  So for typical photography a CC24 is often plenty good.

Jack

Argyll can make profiles with CC SG.

And yes, the semi gloss CC must be illuminated such that you do not get specular reflections. An approach I've seen outdoors is to use a black umbrella with a hole cutout near the middle for a camera.

Indoors one can usually assure good results by illumination from the sides at 45 degrees. But you still have to watch out for lens glare and specular reflections. It's a lot easier to deal with indoors.

The advantage of the SG is that many more of the SG patches, often the less bright ones, have very high saturation and are well outside sRGB. This is much harder to get with matte surfaces such as the standard CC which only has one (cyan) color outside sRGB.

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Brad P

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2017, 02:48:24 PM »

Argyll can make profiles with CC SG.

And yes, the semi gloss CC must be illuminated such that you do not get specular reflections. An approach I've seen outdoors is to use a black umbrella with a hole cutout near the middle for a camera.

Indoors one can usually assure good results by illumination from the sides at 45 degrees. But you still have to watch out for lens glare and specular reflections. It's a lot easier to deal with indoors.

The advantage of the SG is that many more of the SG patches, often the less bright ones, have very high saturation and are well outside sRGB. This is much harder to get with matte surfaces such as the standard CC which only has one (cyan) color outside sRGB.

Thanks for the black umbrella tip!  If I understand, the semi gloss quality seems to practically rule out the SG card for on location use, leaving me anyway (never in a studio) only able to use a shade, tungsten and possibly a dual illuminate profile.  Having zero experience with the SG card, I'd be interested in anyone's views on whether that would be more helpful than the Passport on location, or whether there are other non-X-rite profiling methods that could work better.   I do see in my own work that applying custom Passport profiles usually helps even when the light is meaningfully different from that I shot my profile in, so I guess the proposition isn't entirely a non starter. 
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scyth

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2017, 05:00:33 PM »

or whether there are other non-X-rite profiling methods that could work better. 

the thread about dcamprof has all that discussed... ultimately you need to build a setup with monochromator, integrating sphere, etc = https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59431933
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daicehawk

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2017, 06:04:50 PM »

Thanks for the black umbrella tip!  If I understand, the semi gloss quality seems to practically rule out the SG card for on location use, leaving me anyway (never in a studio) only able to use a shade, tungsten and possibly a dual illuminate profile.  Having zero experience with the SG card, I'd be interested in anyone's views on whether that would be more helpful than the Passport on location, or whether there are other non-X-rite profiling methods that could work better.   I do see in my own work that applying custom Passport profiles usually helps even when the light is meaningfully different from that I shot my profile in, so I guess the proposition isn't entirely a non starter.
In my opinion, tweaking a matrix profile of your choice in the DNG Profile Editor on the matrix tab by using different daylight shots (shadow\direct sunlight\overcast) of the colorchecker or passport by eye without correcting the LUT works best for smooth profiles. To ensure you have a pure matrix profile you can take any ACR or other external DCP profile, tweak the matrix if you want and save it, then open it and tweak again. This as far as I understand (and judging by the profile size) gives you a pure matrix profile that has better tolerance to under/overexposure and offers natural gradients.   
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 07:17:35 AM by daicehawk »
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BradSmith

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2017, 07:21:36 PM »

......the thread about dcamprof has all that discussed...

ahhhh...a reference to my favorite ??? all-time LULA Subject post.  Dive right into that one to learn all about this rather arcane topic.  How long will it take you to read and digest the highly technical, densely packed info (see below) in those 1533 replies. And it has had over 360,000 views!  That is over 500 views PER DAY for 2 years!   Unbelievable.   I am dumbfounded at the level of interest in that thread over the past 2 years.  Maybe the answer is.....there are a total of 5 people, opening it up one time after another after another, 16 hours a day, every day for the past 2 years.   ;)

From the current last page of replies on dcamprof thread....I'm sure this will help you with your question:

CGATS.17
DESCRIPTOR   "X-Rite Passport S/N 008784, Creative Page, 3 passes/averaged, 380nm : 10.0nm : 730nm, with i1Pro2"
ORIGINATOR   "BabelColor PatchTool, version 5.1.0 b409"
LGOROWLENGTH   1
CREATED   "2017-03-13"  # Time: 19:40:26
INSTRUMENTATION   "i1Pro2, S/N 1044184, with 'Lamp Restore' before each pass"
MEASUREMENT_SOURCE   "Illumination=D50 ObserverAngle=2 WhiteBase=Abs Filter=No"
ILLUMINATION_NAME   "D50"
OBSERVER_ANGLE   "2"
FILTER   "Unknown"
MEASUREMENT_CONDITION   "M0"
WEIGHTING_FUNCTION   "ILLUMINANT, D50"
WEIGHTING_FUNCTION   "OBSERVER, 2 degree"
KEYWORD   "DEVCALSTD"
DEVCALSTD   "XRGA"
#
KEYWORD   "SAMPLE_ID"
NUMBER_OF_FIELDS   42
BEGIN_DATA_FORMAT
SAMPLE_ID   LAB_L   LAB_A   LAB_B   LAB_C   LAB_H   nm380   nm390   nm400   nm410   nm420   nm430   nm440   nm450   nm460   nm470   nm480   nm490   nm500   nm510   nm520   nm530   nm540   nm550   nm560   nm570   nm580   nm590   nm600   nm610   nm620   nm630   nm640   nm650   nm660   nm670   nm680   nm690   nm700   nm710   nm720   nm730
END_DATA_FORMAT
NUMBER_OF_SETS   26
BEGIN_DATA
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15   80.7653   -7.4942   -2.7829   7.99   200.4   0.123130   0.206823   0.357753   0.509577   0.577527   0.593943   0.602287   0.610800   0.618520   0.623520   0.626127   0.628187   0.628557   0.626650   0.624080   0.619983   0.614483   0.605733   0.592600   0.579683   0.563243   0.546023   0.526170   0.509730   0.499980   0.494953   0.492777   0.493933   0.498833   0.504060   0.508190   0.509790   0.508950   0.505850   0.505413   0.514730
16   81.1494   -5.4864   -1.4474   5.67   194.8   0.120073   0.203480   0.354580   0.505583   0.572237   0.588510   0.596273   0.603750   0.610570   0.614913   0.617163   0.619310   0.620063   0.618823   0.617547   0.615227   0.611813   0.606267   0.597050   0.588657   0.576640   0.564033   0.548850   0.536123   0.528543   0.524550   0.523080   0.524407   0.528527   0.532457   0.535673   0.537017   0.537013   0.535163   0.534617   0.541990
17   82.0943   -2.7244   -0.0614   2.73   181.3   0.121517   0.204463   0.357043   0.511110   0.579413   0.594537   0.600833   0.607150   0.612300   0.615047   0.616737   0.618923   0.619987   0.619523   0.619010   0.617740   0.616400   0.613863   0.608850   0.605740   0.599673   0.594020   0.586930   0.580867   0.577263   0.575207   0.574807   0.576307   0.578857   0.579453   0.579473   0.578277   0.577530   0.575987   0.575700   0.581363
18   81.2087   -0.1052   1.5835   1.59   93.8   0.117147   0.198437   0.345563   0.488353   0.548757   0.562637   0.568443   0.574167   0.578530   0.579827   0.580763   0.582697   0.583963   0.584163   0.585027   0.585990   0.587157   0.588147   0.588180   0.591060   0.591343   0.592000   0.591860   0.592130   0.592007   0.591490   0.591773   0.592673   0.593410   0.592447   0.591590   0.590737   0.592043   0.592627   0.591817   0.592913
19   51.5034   54.5887   -2.4594   54.64   357.4   0.108013   0.158267   0.220920   0.255583   0.260867   0.254707   0.242003   0.226783   0.209163   0.190540   0.170360   0.150557   0.135547   0.122053   0.104257   0.089443   0.085727   0.089313   0.091203   0.097897   0.127927   0.198047   0.305997   0.435530   0.570467   0.687390   0.771393   0.822300   0.849733   0.862910   0.870203   0.874870   0.881623   0.887117   0.889517   0.894133
20   50.6334   28.7382   -29.0639   40.87   314.7   0.109620   0.185790   0.306527   0.404990   0.442903   0.446720   0.433840   0.410857   0.379873   0.344223   0.303430   0.260653   0.225987   0.195877   0.162223   0.136717   0.129777   0.132890   0.131807   0.137367   0.165387   0.213693   0.257573   0.273440   0.266527   0.270040   0.304143   0.366463   0.442797   0.513293   0.564877   0.604030   0.640677   0.673493   0.700223   0.726263
21   50.6650   -3.7311   -50.6936   50.83   265.8   0.097310   0.166700   0.284490   0.401947   0.468600   0.515773   0.569447   0.619413   0.636747   0.620427   0.577037   0.510810   0.438137   0.365617   0.293263   0.236050   0.195940   0.161290   0.130487   0.111327   0.103667   0.101463   0.098623   0.096377   0.098847   0.108580   0.124727   0.142693   0.155053   0.153797   0.140803   0.129527   0.129707   0.138733   0.152733   0.173857
22   60.9219   -29.3765   -27.6237   40.32   223.2   0.100430   0.163507   0.252987   0.327893   0.368377   0.399527   0.437150   0.486507   0.546597   0.605157   0.637683   0.641770   0.618013   0.568740   0.499220   0.421757   0.347423   0.279397   0.222913   0.186077   0.166210   0.153860   0.141773   0.133243   0.132477   0.138590   0.147347   0.155340   0.161937   0.164907   0.162423   0.159083   0.161860   0.168967   0.176777   0.189640
23   61.0045   -61.3012   28.8176   67.74   154.8   0.052780   0.061547   0.066247   0.069703   0.072353   0.076060   0.081903   0.092090   0.110827   0.145473   0.200163   0.280353   0.383980   0.489203   0.542017   0.523047   0.461950   0.381563   0.301170   0.233427   0.177403   0.133077   0.101747   0.084890   0.077660   0.074713   0.073370   0.073120   0.075430   0.080757   0.088027   0.095370   0.100873   0.102103   0.100827   0.104087
24   86.4316   3.0124   86.1147   86.17   88.0   0.051887   0.053957   0.056090   0.057220   0.057930   0.059423   0.062730   0.068073   0.076963   0.091503   0.110143   0.131623   0.163533   0.246240   0.428117   0.629850   0.750763   0.803923   0.823930   0.834123   0.832913   0.825750   0.812447   0.800790   0.794800   0.792840   0.793887   0.797030   0.804267   0.814207   0.825233   0.834313   0.842753   0.846837   0.846020   0.849807
25   73.6552   35.9368   68.7293   77.56   62.4   0.059320   0.065073   0.069820   0.071130   0.071143   0.071290   0.072207   0.073917   0.075410   0.076567   0.077763   0.080587   0.090060   0.123823   0.189577   0.248023   0.284807   0.326137   0.403140   0.528787   0.661220   0.754607   0.802203   0.823770   0.833443   0.837840   0.841633   0.844973   0.847730   0.847823   0.848173   0.848247   0.851023   0.852930   0.852340   0.854683
26   52.0205   56.8288   29.8147   64.18   27.7   0.069217   0.079083   0.085970   0.087753   0.087043   0.086137   0.085653   0.085167   0.084113   0.082347   0.080493   0.078767   0.077173   0.075023   0.073073   0.073013   0.074583   0.077890   0.083693   0.098093   0.147960   0.260060   0.411763   0.555000   0.656257   0.712493   0.742663   0.761870   0.777110   0.789480   0.802077   0.814607   0.828890   0.840980   0.848977   0.857423
END_DATA


Brad
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 07:26:58 PM by BradSmith »
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sebbe

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2017, 03:08:28 AM »

I have got good results with the IT 8.7 target. It's much cheaper than CCSG.
http://www.targets.coloraid.de/
Take the C1. With the target you receive also a CDROM with the scanned color values. The CCSG does not have that.

Edit: You can make profiles using the IT8.7 target with Argyll and DCamprof. With basICColor Input 5 you can even create profiles with two targets (e.g. IT8.7 + CCSG) and dual illuminant.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 06:47:58 AM by sebbe »
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scyth

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2017, 07:11:15 PM »

With the target you receive also a CDROM with the scanned color values. The CCSG does not have that.

not so... CDROM from Faust does not contain the measurement of your sample, just one from some batch... and CCSG has the same data on X-Rite website, again not for your individual target, but some from the batch ...

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sebbe

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2017, 03:30:34 AM »

not so... CDROM from Faust does not contain the measurement of your sample, just one from some batch... and CCSG has the same data on X-Rite website, again not for your individual target, but some from the batch ...

That's true. I'll get better dE results with the T8.7 than with the CCSG. That's why I pointed at the CDROM. But it could be the colorhaze and flare of my amateurish setup which will be seen more pronounced on the CCSG.
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Rhossydd

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2017, 04:19:57 AM »

not so... CDROM from Faust does not contain the measurement of your sample, just one from some batch... and CCSG has the same data on X-Rite website, again not for your individual target, but some from the batch ...
Which leads to question whose production capabilities are likely to be the most reliable.
Maybe someone with some spare time could measure their samples and report back.
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2017, 07:59:24 AM »

Which leads to question whose production capabilities are likely to be the most reliable.
Not reliable - consistent and repeatable.
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Rhossydd

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2017, 08:25:55 AM »

Not reliable - consistent and repeatable.
Yes, reliable.
"Definition of reliable in English:
Consistently good in quality or performance; able to be trusted."
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2017, 08:36:20 AM »

Yes, reliable.
"Definition of reliable in English:
Consistently good in quality or performance; able to be trusted."
I know the definition - I can speak English fairly well I would hope. But it's not enough to have it "consistently good" - that refers just to one aspect.
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Rhossydd

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2017, 08:51:09 AM »

I know the definition - I can speak English fairly well I would hope. But it's not enough to have it "consistently good" - that refers just to one aspect.
"able to be trusted" is enough.
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2017, 10:10:08 AM »

"able to be trusted" is enough.
I am afraid no, it is not.
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Brad P

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2017, 08:11:41 PM »

I tried reading the two posts referenced but soon realized I, and other readers, might hope to find a more easily implemented solution if one is available.   

I'm willing to put the effort into shooting the ColorChecker SG card as it demands, but am looking for (and not finding) any software company still in business that takes the SG results so I can output a DNG profile into Lightroom/CR.   There is one company (PictoColor Software) with a product that outputs ICC profiles, but ICC can't be used in the demosaicing process as could a DNG profile unless I switch to a raw converter other than Lightroom/CR.    Because I use Lightroom as a file management tool and have for a while, I really don't want to switch raw converters if there is another existing easy software answer.

Thanks
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 03:05:30 AM by Brad P »
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photocor

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2017, 03:55:46 AM »

BasiCColor Input is the software that allows you to make input profiles for apn in .icc (Capture one for eg) or .dcp (Lightroomm)  with one or multi target. Use is very simple, but the software is expensive, you can benefit a trial period.
The accuracy for the profile depends of the shooting and the values of patches.
Regards.
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scyth

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2017, 01:03:09 AM »

I tried reading the two posts referenced but soon realized I, and other readers, might hope to find a more easily implemented solution if one is available.   

I'm willing to put the effort into shooting the ColorChecker SG card as it demands, but am looking for (and not finding) any software company still in business that takes the SG results so I can output a DNG profile into Lightroom/CR.   There is one company (PictoColor Software) with a product that outputs ICC profiles, but ICC can't be used in the demosaicing process as could a DNG profile unless I switch to a raw converter other than Lightroom/CR.    Because I use Lightroom as a file management tool and have for a while, I really don't want to switch raw converters if there is another existing easy software answer.

Thanks

as noted: either paid BasiCColor Input for ~$500 or free DCamProf  ( efforts to get SG shot properly quite comparable with learning how to use DCamProf along the way  :D ) ... consider getting rawdigger profile edition too - makes life easier
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GWGill

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Re: ColorChecker Digital SG (or Better) for Camera Profiling
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2017, 10:32:39 PM »

Maybe CoCa is of interest, as a front end to ArgyllCMS ?
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