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Author Topic: Global shutters are arriving, what this means for Phase.  (Read 3428 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Global shutters are arriving, what this means for Phase.
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2017, 04:10:14 AM »

Hi Paul,

I see it a tiny bit differently…

It seems that the new lenses for the Fuji GFX are excellent, although there are some indications on weak corners from Diglloyd and some indications on focusing accuracy from both Diglloyd and Jim Kasson. But, focusing issues or not, it seems that the GFX can deliver astounding images.

It may be that the X1D has even better lenses, but it is a bit limited by the lack of FP-shutter.

Sony has a roadmap for 100 MP on 44x33, so we will see 100 MP systems, late 2018 or early 2019. I would guess they will be reasonably priced, as sensor area does not increase. But, all involved can make some markup for 100 MP.

I would also hope the 100 MP is a contemporary design, with CDAF and fast electronic shutter and advantages in pixel design.

A 44x33 mm EVF camera makes a lot of sense, but it needs new lenses. To begin with lenses designed for the smaller pixel size and preferable lenses in a shorter mount.

My guess is that we also need to discuss larger volumes. Hasselblad was talking about 30000 preorders and there is little doubts Fuji GFX is selling in thousands. Phase One used to be a small volume high cost manufacturer. Do they want to go into throat cutting competition?

Hasselblad must ask themselves a few questions. The H6D quiet obviously has a 10k$US markup compared to the X1D, but X1D is selling hotcakes. So they have a winner in the stable along that old trusted stallion. Chief of Strategy Ming Thein has some stuff to do…

Best regards
Erik


Pressure starts IMO when and if the next 44 x 33 arrives at 100MP for P1.  They will be a bit behind the curve by then if they wait. 

I would not however be surprised if P1 brings out the first mirrorless in the 44 x 33 chip size similar to how they worked with Sony on the 100MP chip. 

No doubt that P1 current offerings are excellent, however the sheer mass of the P1 system with say the 40-80 and 75-150 LS BL lenses is massive.  I believe the XF, IQ3100 and 40-80 with 2 batteries installed is close to 9.5 pounds. 

The legacy lenses can easily be adapted to the mirror less body, with an adapter, just like Fuji made for the Hasselblad H lenses.  Just need to allow for the mirror box.

As for an EVF on the XF, I would love the option, but I believe only the IQ3100 could use it (HDMI) output allowed.  Optical is great for framing, not so great for critical focus as the eyes get older.  If P1 could put the power of their IQ screen into an EVF, that would be an amazing camera solution.

Paul Caldwell

narikin

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Re: Global shutters are arriving, what this means for Phase.
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2017, 03:07:31 PM »

True that you need a global shutter for fast flash stuff to simulate a LS lens, however, I for one don't need LS lenses and I'm really sad that all new phase lenses just got bigger and bigger. For me just a waste of weight. Phase really lost focus on good small lenses without the stupid LS...


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Agree, I buy the non LS versions. I simply don't need one, as I never use Flash/Strobe.

Doug, you're getting a little bit blind-sided with all your studio customers making you think LS is a total necessity. It isn't for a lot of photographers. I'd go so far at to say more than half. Maybe even more than 75%.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 03:18:34 PM by narikin »
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narikin

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Re: Global shutters are arriving, what this means for Phase.
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2017, 03:16:37 PM »


Sony has a roadmap for 100 MP on 44x33, so we will see 100 MP systems, late 2018 or early 2019.

I think it will be released earlier than that. Early 2018. Less than a year for sure.

There's an obvious answer here: Phase release a crop MF 100mp Mirrorless, like Fuji/Hassy, with its own narrow lens range plus an adapter for the existing Phase lenses. They keep the XF for the 150Mp full MF chip that's coming too. So: you have the big headline ultra Mp chip on the XF, and a cheaper 100Mp reduced MF mirrorless for everyone else.

That keeps the XF camera and lens line valid, and the pricey gear for heavy hitters, and studio based photographers, willing to pay a big premium. Simple!
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Global shutters are arriving, what this means for Phase.
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2017, 04:22:35 PM »

Hi,

Some like them, some don't. There are definite advantages to EVF:

  • No vibration from mirror - with an SLR you need to lock up mirror for optimal sharpness
  • Easy to focus exactly with magnified live view
  • Good viewing in dark places
  • What you see is what you get - in some cases

EVF-s have been around for some years, SLR has been around like 80 years.

Best regards
Erik


Can't get used to them either but I keep trying. I see the real advantage only when compared to a consumer DSLR with a tiny screen.

Transposure

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Re: Global shutters are arriving, what this means for Phase.
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2017, 09:26:20 PM »

Agree, I buy the non LS versions. I simply don't need one, as I never use Flash/Strobe.

Doug, you're getting a little bit blind-sided with all your studio customers making you think LS is a total necessity. It isn't for a lot of photographers. I'd go so far at to say more than half. Maybe even more than 75%.

For statistical significance in this discussion, I am a professional photographer and I use my Phase One XF with leaf shutter lenses primarily for the benefit of using flash at sync speeds up to 1/1600s.  As Doug said, it is transformative. 
Shooting professionally in this manner yields images that are otherwise unattainable by reasonable means.  For that, I LOVE the LS lenses and wouldn't consider buying anything but them.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Global shutters are arriving, what this means for Phase.
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2017, 12:53:41 AM »

Hi,

Prices here:

GFX-S 55 996
X1D78 300
H5X body - no sensor57 900
H6D-50c223 296
H6D 100C281 796
P1 IQ1 50MP back161 400
P1 XF IQ1 50MP208 900
P1 XF IQ3 100MP370 405

These prices are in Swedish kronor (SEK), US prices are typically a tenth in USD. So you get 3 GFX or 2 X1D for the price of a P1 back. Note that there is a large premium for the back. We have a dealer (Goecker) here in Scandinavia who is selling all three systems and has a price list.

Best regards
Erik


I think it will be released earlier than that. Early 2018. Less than a year for sure.

There's an obvious answer here: Phase release a crop MF 100mp Mirrorless, like Fuji/Hassy, with its own narrow lens range plus an adapter for the existing Phase lenses. They keep the XF for the 150Mp full MF chip that's coming too. So: you have the big headline ultra Mp chip on the XF, and a cheaper 100Mp reduced MF mirrorless for everyone else.

That keeps the XF camera and lens line valid, and the pricey gear for heavy hitters, and studio based photographers, willing to pay a big premium. Simple!
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:03:19 AM by ErikKaffehr »
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narikin

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Re: Global shutters are arriving, what this means for Phase.
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2017, 09:48:42 AM »

For statistical significance in this discussion, I am a professional photographer and I use my Phase One XF with leaf shutter lenses primarily for the benefit of using flash at sync speeds up to 1/1600s.  As Doug said, it is transformative. 
Shooting professionally in this manner yields images that are otherwise unattainable by reasonable means.  For that, I LOVE the LS lenses and wouldn't consider buying anything but them.

Fair enough and good to hear. I think the XF body does appeal more to studio based photographers, whereas the IQ backs themselves are of course a separate product with much wider appeal. Most of the landscape photographers on this landscape site using the IQ backs are not of course using strobe in their work. Or an XF. Phase One need to give them a camera for their needs, and keep the XF for everyone else.

To the wider point - yes it is great that a 1/1600 sync opens some new doors creatively. But don't you think so many new doors are opening technologically in different areas, that it's really exciting?! You can basically shoot 8x10" quality from the street with AF now if you want. The IQ3100 allows you to freeze action even on overcast days, with shutter speeds around 1/1600 in sunlight. Try that with a copal shutter?! Plus ES has arrived for absolute truly vibration free capture of still life's. Auto focus stacking too. never thought I'd use, that, but, wow, it really works well!

Its exciting times. Can't wait for the mirrorless advances to come to XF myself: EVF with 100% magnified movable focus, on chip AF points across 75% of the frame, etc. The Fuji GFX has raised the bar on MF Focus system, and it's really hard to accept old single central point focus anymore, especially on a camera system costing 8x the price of the GFX. 

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dantemi

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Re: Global shutters are arriving, what this means for Phase.
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2017, 08:45:06 AM »

I'm a 3 day owner of the Hasselblad X1D with the XCD 45.
It's a beauty and the quality of the files looks impressive.
It's my first MF (though cropped as someone says) and so would somebody enlighten me on the advantages of the leaf shutter? which benefits from it? how to exploit it in my daily photography? is the leaf shutter pros only clear when using a flash?
thanks for your thoughts
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jduncan

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Re: Global shutters are arriving, what this means for Phase.
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2017, 09:04:57 AM »

Clearly, with the announcement of the A9, we are seeing the arrival of true 'global shutter' sensor technology. This is great, and should be welcomed by all. What did this mean for Phase and MF shooters?

Obviously the next iteration of MF sensors will have some kind of implementation of this. It is of course harder to have the high speed shutter/flush on a big sensor than a smaller one, but still... it's coming.

Everyone expects the next generation to be around 100Mp in cropped, and 150mp in full MF. No disagreement with that. But if both of these come with an effective GS, then that means a big redesign at Phase is required. The will be no need for that giant, heavy mirror box, or for that matter a lens range formulated around that flange distance. Advantage Fuji, at this point.

First step will be an evf onto the XF. It's overdue already. With the mirror locked up out of the way, it could work with the GS/ES directly, but then you're carrying all that XF body bulk and weight around for nothing.

Clearly a new body is in order, and must be coming with the next generation sensors. Something based on the Mamiya 7 heritage that they own, maybe? Or the Alpa FPS body? Either would work, but there's no question Phase have to address this as a priority.

Any thoughts?

Details, the devil is in the details:
1. Global shutters are not new.
2. Global shutters are not used as much as before but they are becoming more common on video cameras. It's easier to implement a global shutter on a CCD.
3. Both the reviewers and Sony's A9  documentation say it does not have a global shutter.
4. The A9 does not have global shutter, what is has is a high bandiwth sensor (is all over the place from Sony and youtubers). The fact that you have a technology on a sensor does not imply that it will be present on the other. It's not  obvious in any shape of form. In particular, since it's not a global shutter the question will be: Will the sensors be stacket as Sony call them? will they have enought bandwith to produce a digital exposure with almost no rolling-shutter?
Some day, maybe soon, we will have the technologies in MF but we can't derive certainties from the A9.

Best regards

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