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Author Topic: FF versus MF  (Read 6007 times)

Brad P

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FF versus MF
« on: April 20, 2017, 01:43:56 AM »

I imagine this topic was posted before.  But Trump is the US President, it's not yet 100 days, and that may change everything. 

Readers might appreciate thoughtful LuLa thinking on a few questions about what you, dear reader, for your work, would buy into if forced to sell every last bit of your gear, lenses, tripods, peripherals and all, and reinvest into high end photography right now.  What would it be?  Can it print big if necessary?  Phase, Hasselblad, Mamiya or Leaf owners are especially invited to comment.  You are pretty quiet here recently.  And your used equipment is becoming affordable to most readers (especially an eBay post in Australia right now, mostly notable for its lenses rather than its 6 year old 40MP PO back).

I'm leaning tonight toward the following, in order, and have zero affiliation with anyone.  My proposed investment horizon is 5 years. 

(a) Canon 5DSr + all Otuses (mirrorless supplanting 35mm lenses within 5 years an issue, dynamic range an issue, 250MP a pipe dream. A promise of competent DR and 100 MP in 2 years?).

(b) Nikon d810 + all Otuses (Nikon's financial wherewithal an issue, mirrorless supplanting existing 35mm lenses an issue, upward bound resolution an issue).

(c) GFX and its wider lenses as they roll out (lens focus, especially when untouched for 16 shots (see Kasson write up - firmware upgrades may not fix)) an issue, and lens corner QC an issue.

(d) D1X and its wider lenses as they roll out (rear bokeh almost a nonstarter, and reliability of lens roll out an issue).

I ask because I've developed camera and pinhole shoebox film by hand, dodging and burning, 45 years ago.   Had a career of sorts since then, but in between never lost the optical bug.  I've moved around from Nikon to Canon to Sony as my own major platform the last 20 years, selling that each off as I maddeningly switch.  I want to buy in this time for the long term and imagine there might be other readers or posters who do too. 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 10:29:26 AM by Brad P »
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Brad P

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2017, 02:13:18 AM »

Totally onboard. 
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BobShaw

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 02:42:15 AM »

Well I think the main reason there are lot of 35mm people commenting in the MF section are that need to somehow justify themselves. The MF guys just shake their heads and wonder why they think focal plane shutters and 63 point AF are necessary for portrait and landscape. Anyway, I digress ..

I have the 5Ds and I took it on a trip for landscape recently and came back disappointed. I will be going back shortly with the H3DII-39. I still think the 8 year old MF is better than the new 50MP 35mm in image quality.

There is some cheap gear. People are selling it to buy the new small toys and that to me is great. Hasselblads cheaper than Canons. Woohoo!
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Brad P

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2017, 03:02:06 AM »

Get it and don't for a second disagree.  I have Nikon pics that surprise me 15 years or so later.   I may need to reprocess them.  Lightroom and camera raw are pretty good 3 or maybe even 15 years out, dynamic range wise. But they can never get back the resolution. 
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 03:12:54 AM »

If you are not in a hurry, I would wait for the Sony a9r and D850 before making any such decision. ;)

If you are in a hurry, I would decide based on whether you like OVFs or EVFs in terms of shooting experience. That may be the most important decision factor in the end.

If you like OVF -> D810 (now)/D850(later)/645Z
If you like EVF -> a7rII (now)/a9r(later)/X1D/GFX depending on your budget and itch to be an "MF" owner. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
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Brad P

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2017, 03:18:56 AM »

Loved your shot of the Tokyo alley.  Almost made me think like I lived there again (and we did, 2000-2003ish).  About the most peaceful and fun place we have ever lived.   Hope it's still about the same. 
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2017, 04:08:41 AM »

Loved your shot of the Tokyo alley.  Almost made me think like I lived there again (and we did, 2000-2003ish).  About the most peaceful and fun place we have ever lived.   Hope it's still about the same.

Thanks. ;)

No major changes in Tokyo in those parts of town.

Now there have been some important developments projects in Shimbashi/Shiodome, the South part of Shinjuku, Roppongi (mid-town, not sure if Roppongi Hills was already there in 2003), Osaki,... currently the East exit in Shibuya..., but the spirit of the city remains the same.

Roppongi Hills is where I had the chance to have dinner with Michael once 7-8 years ago btw. Long time.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Brad P

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2017, 05:06:12 AM »

My favorite place outside of Tokyo was outside of Tokyo.  One place was Kamakura and the long walkway. Another was Hakone to be in the countryside, another was Kyoto and another was an afternoon overnight  climb to the top of Fuji san for sunrise.  I wish I had whatever camera I am looking at now then.  Seriously, I very much miss Nihon. Enjoy it while you can.

Now to cameras.  The X1D lenses released so far appears to me to have octangular, geometric lens bokeh from available images, and if that's right, that afflicts the whole X1D image quality, overtly and subliminally. A non starter for what I do.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 05:38:51 AM by Brad P »
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2017, 05:49:45 AM »

The cameras depends on what you want to shoot. I have tried most of them. If you want to spend the bucks, the X1D is a nice camera, so is the Nikon D810. However, I would wait to see what Nikon and Sony come up with for the landscape shoots. I have the D810, the A7rII, and the X1D.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2017, 06:27:52 AM »

My favorite place outside of Tokyo was outside of Tokyo.  One place was Kamakura and the long walkway. Another was Hakone to be in the countryside, another was Kyoto and another was an afternoon overnight  climb to the top of Fuji san for sunrise.  I wish I had whatever camera I am looking at now then.  Seriously, I very much miss Nihon. Enjoy it while you can.

Thks, it's been almost 20 years and I still enjoy most of it as much as I did the first year. My wife and I love Kamakura where we have a direct train access to from our home.

Now to cameras.  The X1D lenses released so far appears to me to have octangular, geometric lens bokeh from available images, and if that's right, that afflicts the whole X1D image quality, overtly and subliminally. A non starter for what I do.

Yep, no go for me too, why regress from my trio of Otus and Nikkors/excellent HC lenses? More generally speaking, I find it quite daring to invest in a new system like this right at availability knowing the complexity of these systems and the potential to find issues such as these bokeh issues with the otherwise lovely lenses. But anyway, it isn't my money. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 07:53:12 AM by BernardLanguillier »
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fotagf8

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2017, 09:11:59 AM »

Following through on the OP, we are approaching 100 days in the Trump presidency.  I am not sure what tomorrow is going to bring. I certainly am not going to speculate what another 100 days is going to bring.

Same for cameras.  I have a bunch of cameras in my drawers, and I am not sure which one I am going to use to tonight to photograph in a jazz club.  Last week, it certainly wasn't going to be the Fuji GFX, but I may bring it tonight after last weekend's surprise.

We live with an industry that adheres to a Moore's law ethos.  You are obviously having fun speculating, but you seem to be doing it along the pathway as we know it.  But consider:

A. One of these days, Canon is going to have to make a serious run at the mirrorless.

B.  PhaseOne, if it is smart, will address the GFX 50s and Hasselblad 1DX.  I went for the expensive poor man's version of PhaseOne in the form of a Leaf 50 back.  In two years it has suffered significant depreciation.  With medium format now available at a third of the cost, I am very reluctant to repeat paying extreme premium prices.  I don't need PhaseOne's seismograph, focus stacking, or warranty program.  They've been at longer, but others will catch up in terms of getting the most out of a sensor.  Assuming others share my perspective, PhaseOne is going to need to respond to this newer form of medium format.

C.  I received a message from a friend last night out of the clear blue.  We had messaged eight months ago about the X1D.  As far as I know, he is not in that game.  Yet, he was saying he would trade in two camera systems to purchase the Sony camera announced yesterday--20 frames per second, no blackout, silent shooting, 24mp-- if he were seriously shooting concerts.  Based on his tone, I don't think he will do it tomorrow, but I think he is giving it serious thought longer term.  Note:  He is taking less pixels, but he is impressed with significant advances in other aspects of the technology.

D.  You, like many others, seemed to be knocked out by the Otus lenses.  Given the price of those lenses and the willingness of many to pay it, I have to believe there are other companies thinking about developing premium lenses.

For me, the only thing I can even begin to predict about the next five years is that I probably will not own a Canon camera and set of lenses unless Canon does something different.  Time has answered the question.  I now only use my Canon for Macro work.  It used to go everywhere with me.  Simple natural attrition.

In short, a five-year roadmap strikes me as pretty fanciful.  Too much is happening.  As I said, I don't know what equipment I am going to use tonight.
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cgarnerhome

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2017, 10:04:33 AM »

A big part of my decision is based on the company’s commitment to continue to support and further enhance their product.  The high-end camera market is a difficult business considering all the changes in technology and considering the size of the market.  For this reason, and several others, I have settled on Phase One as my primary camera company.  I was very disappointed with the Phase 645DF+ but stayed with the company and feel I have made a good decision for me.  I have the Nikon 810 and I’m happy with it but it’s a very different animal than the Phase XF100 and I use it for very different reasons.  If they come out with a 50mp version it will still not suit me as a primary camera.  Canon, to me, is not committed to the medium format market so I would not even consider them even though I used them for years.  Fuji is interesting as I believe they are committed long-term to be a force in this market segment and they have demonstrated they continue to improve cameras.  Obviously, Sony will be a player so I’m curious as to why you didn’t consider them.  The next 5 years will be very interesting and likely very expensive!

TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2017, 10:08:21 AM »

Personally I think you need to choose a system that feels good to you.  Renting or trying out someone's camera is the best way.  Sometimes that's tough...but in reality it is the only way.  Or buy on amazon and return.  Regardless...if the camera isn't a specialized tool you need for a very specific task... or there are several that fit the bill spec wise... it is time to feel them out.  The difference between a camera that is invisible in your hands and allows you to think only of the subject and not the camera is the proper camera to use.  The camera that you love to hold, feels right, and delivers the results is ideal.  Everything has its laundry list of negatives.  At the same time, quality is at a ridiculously high point almost making it irrelevant.  It is amazing what cameras can do today.  Some cameras even with their negatives will feel so right you won't care.  This is why Leica is still in business.

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SrMi

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2017, 11:03:13 AM »

...

Now to cameras.  The X1D lenses released so far appears to me to have octangular, geometric lens bokeh from available images, and if that's right, that afflicts the whole X1D image quality, overtly and subliminally. A non starter for what I do.

The octangular bokeh behavior has been observed only on one lens: XCD 90mm. The other lens that I own (XCD 45mm) has a regular bokeh. I have not heard that anyone has complained about bokeh on XCD 30mm lens. There is no reason to assume that other incoming X1D lenses will have octangular bokehs, but time will tell.
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Joe Towner

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2017, 01:18:00 PM »

+1 to Tony's thoughts, it really needs to be a sticky in these forums.  Don't worry about the future, worry about what you're shooting today, and tomorrow.  We can all look back a few years and be reminded of a time without CMOS sensors in MF gear.  In 5 years, I'll have purchased something else.  What ever you purchase, make sure you can use it on day 1.
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Brad P

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2017, 01:52:41 PM »

The octangular bokeh behavior has been observed only on one lens: XCD 90mm. The other lens that I own (XCD 45mm) has a regular bokeh. I have not heard that anyone has complained about bokeh on XCD 30mm lens. There is no reason to assume that other incoming X1D lenses will have octangular bokehs, but time will tell.


Any other confirmations the Octagon Disease struck only the 90?  Especially, is the 30mm unafflicted?  I could live without the 90, and it would bump the Hassy up a few notches in my mind anyway.   I'd expect more aperture in the series after the initial roadmap is done too btw. 
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 02:32:45 PM by Brad P »
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dantemi

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2017, 09:26:40 AM »

A few pics taken with the 45 at 3.5 show no octagons
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SrMi

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2017, 03:02:29 PM »


Any other confirmations the Octagon Disease struck only the 90?  Especially, is the 30mm unafflicted?  I could live without the 90, and it would bump the Hassy up a few notches in my mind anyway.   I'd expect more aperture in the series after the initial roadmap is done too btw.

You can see XCD 45mm bokeh examples on http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/hasselblad_xcd_45mm_f3_5_review/
Unless somebody reports otherwise, I assume the lenses do not have "Octagon Disease".
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2017, 04:21:41 AM »

Hi,

I have another perspective…

A camera is an image making device. You put a lens in front, a tripod under, photographer behind. The part that really matters is the sensor.

I sort of have a list of requirements, like:

  • Magnified liev view
  • Electronic First Shutter curtain
  • Decent DR
  • Small enough pixels to reduce aliasing
  • Enough pixels for my needs
  • Be able to use tilts for Scheimpflug
  • Decently working AF
  • Good lens availability - adapter or original
  • Articulated screen
  • A few programmable presets

With a camera having the above functionality, I can do the images I want. Would I shoots sports, my needs may be different. Would I shoot outdoor flash, leaf shutters would be an advantage.

Best regards
Erik


Personally I think you need to choose a system that feels good to you.  Renting or trying out someone's camera is the best way.  Sometimes that's tough...but in reality it is the only way.  Or buy on amazon and return.  Regardless...if the camera isn't a specialized tool you need for a very specific task... or there are several that fit the bill spec wise... it is time to feel them out.  The difference between a camera that is invisible in your hands and allows you to think only of the subject and not the camera is the proper camera to use.  The camera that you love to hold, feels right, and delivers the results is ideal.  Everything has its laundry list of negatives.  At the same time, quality is at a ridiculously high point almost making it irrelevant.  It is amazing what cameras can do today.  Some cameras even with their negatives will feel so right you won't care.  This is why Leica is still in business.
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