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Author Topic: New SONY α9 featuring full-frame stacked CMOS sensor  (Read 6803 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: New SONY α9 featuring full-frame stacked CMOS sensor
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2017, 07:32:59 AM »

That case of banding seems also present with some DSLRs.

I am more worried by the banding reported by Lloyd Chambers in red channel in natural light situation because that seems fairly visible in skies.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: New SONY α9 featuring full-frame stacked CMOS sensor
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2017, 08:25:14 AM »

That case of banding seems also present with some DSLRs.

I am more worried by the banding reported by Lloyd Chambers in red channel in natural light situation because that seems fairly visible in skies.

Cheers,
Bernard

Regards the sky, that is another nail in its coffin then, not good...

The banding I mentioned does not affect Canon or Nikon DSLRs shot in the same conditions. Nor does it relate to banding in shadow or when files pushed in some older DSLRs... No this is a nasty obvious interaction between the sensor structure and function with LED source lights in particular. LED lighting is replacing most lighting types everywhere, even street lighting...

I no longer see a market for this camera. It seems it was not dead on arrival but dead in the design room...

Look out for a coming fire sale...
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hogloff

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Re: New SONY α9 featuring full-frame stacked CMOS sensor
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2017, 08:26:17 AM »

That case of banding seems also present with some DSLRs.

I am more worried by the banding reported by Lloyd Chambers in red channel in natural light situation because that seems fairly visible in skies.

Cheers,
Bernard

Images I've seen posted really look amazing and show no banding. Speaking with pro's that use this camera to make photos indicate the quality of the images is simply great.

There are photographers who make photos and there are click bate Internet mouths whose soul goal is to dig deep into a system...find a minor issue and make a mountain out of it so they get more views which leads to more money.

I've long ago decided to not rely on people's opinions that are sponsored by the manufacturer as well as people's opinions that benefit by luring you to their websites by sensationalism. Both have jaded views and anterior motives. I rely on talking with honest people that use the equipment day in, day out. They give me the real scoop.

If you look at any camera, you will see they all have issues...yet look at the amazing photos being created.
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: New SONY α9 featuring full-frame stacked CMOS sensor
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2017, 08:47:53 AM »


The banding I read about affected 2% of the images taken...

Trouble is, had the same shots been taken then it would be 100%...

It is the lighting causing it where other DSLRs are immune to the effect...

I have no reason to suspect they are click baiters and I would even suggest they are playing it down as they are in genuine disbelief and really want this SONY to deliver...

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hogloff

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Re: New SONY α9 featuring full-frame stacked CMOS sensor
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2017, 09:07:20 AM »

The banding I read about affected 2% of the images taken...

Trouble is, had the same shots been taken then it would be 100%...

It is the lighting causing it where other DSLRs are immune to the effect...

I have no reason to suspect they are click baiters and I would even suggest they are playing it down as they are in genuine disbelief and really want this SONY to deliver...

I guess if you shoot into the sun or very bright light...then this camera is not for you, but for the rest of us that don't have the urge to shoot into the sun creating blown out areas...we are just fine.

Like I said, show me a single camera...just one, that does not have issues.
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: New SONY α9 featuring full-frame stacked CMOS sensor
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2017, 09:28:47 AM »

I guess if you shoot into the sun or very bright light...then this camera is not for you, but for the rest of us that don't have the urge to shoot into the sun creating blown out areas...we are just fine.

Like I said, show me a single camera...just one, that does not have issues.

I was not taking about that the type of shooting you suggest...

My example was someone in day light or dusk shooting sports and normal subject shots getting sensor banding... Just ordinary shots due to the presence of some near by LED signage and not the signage reflection or colour cast...

If someone stays clear of artificial light and does not shoot the sky then sure it sounds like a great non pro camera or alternative body a pro may carry...

The price does not justify the issues that are being revealed...

On a completely separate note, I do find it funny how when someone tests a SONY and it over heats that others suggest it must be an error in the report. The lens in use has a big effect so saying it did not affect them does not mean it was not an issue for the person testing and reporting the issue...

The final word with any camera will be how a person uses it, and in that sense you are quite right, if it works for them then it is a fantastic camera...

I think it is great that we have so many testers out there to push this stuff in to different shooting conditions and find out how it actually performs, rather than just what SONY marketing said...

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: New SONY α9 featuring full-frame stacked CMOS sensor
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2017, 04:41:54 PM »

Of course when you see all this you start to wonder if Nikon and Canon didn't take a conscious decision not to release to the market mirrorless high end cameras that appear not to be fully ready for prime time as generic tools.

Because the D5 and the 1DmkII are expected to work day in day out in any light as perfectly reliable tools.

It is quite puzzling why Sony took the huge risk to go after that market instead of going first against the super high res slow shooters that are a lot less demanding.

Anyway, the A9 remains an interesting offer, but its shooting enveloppe ends up being much more narrow than initially thought. It's main strength probably is street/event photography where it competes against the 5DIV, soon the D820 and the M10. The Sony being faster (but who really needs that?) and silent in exchange for a higher price tag and smaller set of native AF lenses.

I don't think it is an easy sell past the silver bullet chasing initial quick adopters. Future will tell.

Cheers,
Bernard
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hogloff

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Re: New SONY α9 featuring full-frame stacked CMOS sensor
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2017, 05:39:09 PM »

Of course when you see all this you start to wonder if Nikon and Canon didn't take a conscious decision not to release to the market mirrorless high end cameras that appear not to be fully ready for prime time as generic tools.

Because the D5 and the 1DmkII are expected to work day in day out in any light as perfectly reliable tools.

It is quite puzzling why Sony took the huge risk to go after that market instead of going first against the super high res slow shooters that are a lot less demanding.

Anyway, the A9 remains an interesting offer, but its shooting enveloppe ends up being much more narrow than initially thought. It's main strength probably is street/event photography where it competes against the 5DIV, soon the D820 and the M10. The Sony being faster (but who really needs that?) and silent in exchange for a higher price tag and smaller set of native AF lenses.

I don't think it is an easy sell past the silver bullet chasing initial quick adopters. Future will tell.

Cheers,
Bernard

Future is being written right now. So far in 2017, mirrorless is outselling DSLR cameras. If this continues for the remainder of the year, this will be huge. DSLR's have plateaued and new releases show very little compelling reasons to upgrade except for the very few that get GAS with every release.

Talking with the guys at my favourite camera shop, the A9 has been selling very well and continues to sell out with each shipment. Now this isn't a store like B&H, but it does a good business. The speed, AF and silent shooting are the key selling points.
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: New SONY α9 featuring full-frame stacked CMOS sensor
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2017, 07:04:42 PM »

Of course when you see all this you start to wonder if Nikon and Canon didn't take a conscious decision not to release to the market mirrorless high end cameras that appear not to be fully ready for prime time as generic tools.

Because the D5 and the 1DmkII are expected to work day in day out in any light as perfectly reliable tools.

It is quite puzzling why Sony took the huge risk to go after that market instead of going first against the super high res slow shooters that are a lot less demanding.

Anyway, the A9 remains an interesting offer, but its shooting enveloppe ends up being much more narrow than initially thought. It's main strength probably is street/event photography where it competes against the 5DIV, soon the D820 and the M10. The Sony being faster (but who really needs that?) and silent in exchange for a higher price tag and smaller set of native AF lenses.

I don't think it is an easy sell past the silver bullet chasing initial quick adopters. Future will tell.

Cheers,
Bernard

Correct, it has been said that they don't like launching new technology on the flagship models. They need to be 100% products not failing in anyway. They prefer to fully test in a lesser product to unearth those hidden issues. We know they have all had their problem cameras even when these precautions are taken and hence we have seen moves in popularity between Canon and Nikon...

As for SONY, they have nothing to lose and their development curve is stepper, they are in a race to dominate the market and were well behind their plans not that long ago. They don't have the long tele pro market with their lack of lenses that will keep them at bay...

The small size of the A9 is a give away that they are just not taking the D5/1DX market seriously. They are still aiming at the users that may not need the DSLR design and want a portable alternative to add to their set up...

If the problems highlighted have growing user impact this could become their first lesson not to use their customers as test lab rats, and the speed people could dump their gear and head back to trusted suppliers may take them by surprise. At the moment they are still relying on fringe users who can still use their old gear when it simply must work...






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hogloff

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Re: New SONY α9 featuring full-frame stacked CMOS sensor
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2017, 08:12:06 PM »

Correct, it has been said that they don't like launching new technology on the flagship models. They need to be 100% products not failing in anyway. They prefer to fully test in a lesser product to unearth those hidden issues. We know they have all had their problem cameras even when these precautions are taken and hence we have seen moves in popularity between Canon and Nikon...

As for SONY, they have nothing to lose and their development curve is stepper, they are in a race to dominate the market and were well behind their plans not that long ago. They don't have the long tele pro market with their lack of lenses that will keep them at bay...

The small size of the A9 is a give away that they are just not taking the D5/1DX market seriously. They are still aiming at the users that may not need the DSLR design and want a portable alternative to add to their set up...

If the problems highlighted have growing user impact this could become their first lesson not to use their customers as test lab rats, and the speed people could dump their gear and head back to trusted suppliers may take them by surprise. At the moment they are still relying on fringe users who can still use their old gear when it simply must work...

I've seen quite the opposite stream of people moving to Sony and fleeing the likes of Canon and a lesser extent Nikon. The A9 is just another nail along with the GM lenses a complete kit for portraits, weddings, events and just about everything other than sports and the wildlife crowd which combined make up a very small portion of the photo market.

I think Sony approached it right. Hit the major photo market and leave the fringe to later...if ever.

A fellow photographer that shoots mostly weddings says the silent shutter and eye tracking are game changers for his work. I know there are many times I'd love a totally silent shutter. There was a discussion on another forum where the A9 will allow for a whole new range of golf photos as you can shoot during the swing rather than waiting until the ball is hit before taking the photo.

The future is interesting and I really don't see the DSLR staying around for very long. What advantage does a DSLR bring to the table...I can't think of any, so can't Cannot judging by their 6D2 release.
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: New SONY α9 featuring full-frame stacked CMOS sensor
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2017, 08:54:33 PM »

I've seen quite the opposite stream of people moving to Sony and fleeing the likes of Canon and a lesser extent Nikon. The A9 is just another nail along with the GM lenses a complete kit for portraits, weddings, events and just about everything other than sports and the wildlife crowd which combined make up a very small portion of the photo market.

I think Sony approached it right. Hit the major photo market and leave the fringe to later...if ever.

A fellow photographer that shoots mostly weddings says the silent shutter and eye tracking are game changers for his work. I know there are many times I'd love a totally silent shutter. There was a discussion on another forum where the A9 will allow for a whole new range of golf photos as you can shoot during the swing rather than waiting until the ball is hit before taking the photo.

The future is interesting and I really don't see the DSLR staying around for very long. What advantage does a DSLR bring to the table...I can't think of any, so can't Cannot judging by their 6D2 release.

That all makes sense as far as the new A9. It will be interesting to see if any of these new users get an issue with banding and how they react if they start losing important shots...

As far as OVFs go, it may still be preferred by some, we will have to see how this all plays out.. Battery life and zero latency viewing are key advantages.. There is obviously a shutter lag while the mirror lifts for a shot but that is minimal and becomes a natural user timing skill...

OVFs also allow some heat to escape that comes in though the lens. No where to go in a mirrorless...

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hogloff

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Re: New SONY α9 featuring full-frame stacked CMOS sensor
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2017, 09:33:21 PM »

That all makes sense as far as the new A9. It will be interesting to see if any of these new users get an issue with banding and how they react if they start losing important shots...

As far as OVFs go, it may still be preferred by some, we will have to see how this all plays out.. Battery life and zero latency viewing are key advantages.. There is obviously a shutter lag while the mirror lifts for a shot but that is minimal and becomes a natural user timing skill...

OVFs also allow some heat to escape that comes in though the lens. No where to go in a mirrorless...

I've used OVF for 40 years and don't miss them one bit. There is so much more information in an EVF including being able to how the final image will look before you take the photo...something you have to quickly chimp at with an OVF. The new EVF have basically zero blackout...much less than a mirror flapping away. Precision focusing with an EVF is really sweet as you can zoom in with a click of a button and fine tune your focus. I found I had to always use the rear LCD on a DSLR to get precise focus, trying to manually focus using a OVF is a exercise in frustration and using AF with fast lens is just not accurate enough to nail the eye with any reliability.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: New SONY α9 featuring full-frame stacked CMOS sensor
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2017, 12:42:52 AM »

I found I had to always use the rear LCD on a DSLR to get precise focus, trying to manually focus using a OVF is a exercise in frustration and using AF with fast lens is just not accurate enough to nail the eye with any reliability.

I agree that manual focusing with DSLR can be a challenge, especially with AF lenses. Manual focus lenses such as the Otus is easier but you need excellent vision and static subjects.

As far as AF goes, I believe you have never used a D5/D500. The rate of success at f1.4 on the eye is high even on moving subjects, especially with the latest lenses. Their tremendous level of sharpness wide open must help the AF for sure.,

Not trying to convince you, just sharing my modest experience.

Have EVF intrinsic technological advantages over OVFs? Most certainly. Does that result in the best EVF based camera to be better at focusing than the best OVF cameras? Not yet I believe.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: New SONY α9 featuring full-frame stacked CMOS sensor
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2017, 07:08:20 AM »

I've used OVF for 40 years and don't miss them one bit. There is so much more information in an EVF including being able to how the final image will look before you take the photo...something you have to quickly chimp at with an OVF. The new EVF have basically zero blackout...much less than a mirror flapping away. Precision focusing with an EVF is really sweet as you can zoom in with a click of a button and fine tune your focus. I found I had to always use the rear LCD on a DSLR to get precise focus, trying to manually focus using a OVF is a exercise in frustration and using AF with fast lens is just not accurate enough to nail the eye with any reliability.

For fast action sports photography, the Optical Viewfinder will always be king due to zero lag. Canon have said those Customers have insisted they keep it.

The early EVFs were so bad it was a night and day difference. They have improved but every time they hike the EVF pixel count they will need a faster sensor read out and process chain to keep those EVFs near useful for that application. The tiny shutter lag in an OVF is easy to compensate for as the lag free image means the photographer will know where the subject will be. With EVF you looking at where the subject was and that lag is more significant... The high FPS possible with the newest lenses on the A9, will mitigate a bit if the spray and pray style is used in the hope at least one frame will get the shot...

Having said that, and ignoring things like SONY star eating RAW, and the suggestion they are precooking their RAW files to add sharpness, and the issues being discovered with the A9, the A9 will still work for some...

If a sports photographer sold all their old gear for an A9 and found they were shooting at an event where the lighting was going to cause banding, they would be forced back to shutter and the 5fps limit. Not what they spent all that money for...

For a the golf example, the risk is probably far less as any video LEDs that may be present at such an event are likely to be more photo friendly IE not pulse the way the signage LEDs must be pulsing to cause the issue. But most of all for the shots where silence is needed, there is no alternative unless you blimp house a normal camera. The Golf use case is more assured...

The A9 usage has narrowed quiet a bit but for some that will be OK.

This site has more photographers that shoot more static shots, so EVFs have other advantages for them.

The great thing about the DSLRs is you have the best of both worlds. You can use the screen in some shots if needed...

Horses for courses, it is good to have choices...
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BJL

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EVF lag, mirror-up lag, etc.
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2017, 11:38:32 AM »

For fast action sports photography, the Optical Viewfinder will always be king due to zero lag. Canon have said those Customers have insisted they keep it.
...
 The tiny shutter lag in an OVF is easy to compensate for as the lag free image means the photographer will know where the subject will be. With EVF you looking at where the subject was and that lag is more significant
That comparison made sense till recently, but the best modern EFVs have a lag far less than the mirror-up lag. I have seen under 10ms EVF lag for some cameras, while the lowest mirror-up lag is about 40ms. Live view wih all-mechanical shutter also has a lag to close the first curtain, but I estimate that at only about 4ms—the maximum time that the curtains take to cross the frame if flash sync speed is 1/250 s.

As to anticipating, I see no difference with either source of lag: either way, you just have to release the shutter 10ms or 14ms or 40ms or whatever before you expect the right scene to appear in the VF.

For AF prediction, a low-lag EVF probably has an advantage: AF can be done till the first curtain closes, at about T-4ms, wheras an SLR has to stop AFbefore the mirror lifts, about T-40ms or earlier

Istill see some advantages for OVFs for some users and use cases, but lag has neen licked.

P. S. Do we need a sticky topic for OVF vs EVF discussions?!
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hogloff

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Re: EVF lag, mirror-up lag, etc.
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2017, 12:09:38 PM »

That comparison made sense till recently, but the best modern EFVs have a lag far less than the mirror-up lag. I have seen under 10ms EVF lag for some cameras, while the lowest mirror-up lag is about 40ms. Live view wih all-mechanical shutter also has a lag to close the first curtain, but I estimate that at only about 4ms—the maximum time that the curtains take to cross the frame if flash sync speed is 1/250 s.

As to anticipating, I see no difference with either source of lag: either way, you just have to release the shutter 10ms or 14ms or 40ms or whatever before you expect the right scene to appear in the VF.

For AF prediction, a low-lag EVF probably has an advantage: AF can be done till the first curtain closes, at about T-4ms, wheras an SLR has to stop AFbefore the mirror lifts, about T-40ms or earlier

Istill see some advantages for OVFs for some users and use cases, but lag has neen licked.

P. S. Do we need a sticky topic for OVF vs EVF discussions?!

What I find is a lot of people picked up a consumer mirrorless camera a few years ago which had a mediocre EVF and make all their statements based on that experience rather than the state of the art EVF we have today. EFV are advancing very rapidly and one needs to always look at the latest generations...whereas the OVF has matured and actually have gone backwards from the film days is many ways...used to love my big beautiful Olympus viewfinders that have not been matched by any DSLR OVF for clarity and brightness.

You are right, viewfinder lag in the latest EVF is not an issue as it rivals and quite often beats OVF.

The other thing to note is the biggest lag in capturing peak action is not in any camera...it's the delay from the brain to your finger which is in the area of 200ms.
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: EVF lag, mirror-up lag, etc.
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2017, 07:24:04 PM »

That comparison made sense till recently, but the best modern EFVs have a lag far less than the mirror-up lag. I have seen under 10ms EVF lag for some cameras, while the lowest mirror-up lag is about 40ms. Live view wih all-mechanical shutter also has a lag to close the first curtain, but I estimate that at only about 4ms—the maximum time that the curtains take to cross the frame if flash sync speed is 1/250 s.

As to anticipating, I see no difference with either source of lag: either way, you just have to release the shutter 10ms or 14ms or 40ms or whatever before you expect the right scene to appear in the VF.

For AF prediction, a low-lag EVF probably has an advantage: AF can be done till the first curtain closes, at about T-4ms, wheras an SLR has to stop AFbefore the mirror lifts, about T-40ms or earlier

Istill see some advantages for OVFs for some users and use cases, but lag has neen licked.

P. S. Do we need a sticky topic for OVF vs EVF discussions?!

The 1DX2 has a Shutter Lag of 36ms in fast mode...  ;)

EVF lag just adds to the delay in framing and shooting which would be more of an issue with longer lenses and say birds in flight as an example...

10ms is impressive but is also visually noticeable...





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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: New SONY α9 featuring full-frame stacked CMOS sensor
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2017, 07:36:23 PM »

Interesting test on banding from different light sources. When the light source is a problem it also affects the A9 on mechanical shutter. He also mentions issues with strong red light on the sensor:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0qr0sF2o-gc

5 minutes of video usage in plain weather and the A9 overheated:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FP6dP0s-1og
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hogloff

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Re: EVF lag, mirror-up lag, etc.
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2017, 08:01:43 PM »

The 1DX2 has a Shutter Lag of 36ms in fast mode...  ;)

EVF lag just adds to the delay in framing and shooting which would be more of an issue with longer lenses and say birds in flight as an example...

10ms is impressive but is also visually noticeable...

In my books 10ms is better than 36ms.
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: EVF lag, mirror-up lag, etc.
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2017, 08:20:18 PM »

In my books 10ms is better than 36ms.

Zero lag plus human reaction time with 36ms factored in...

10ms lag plus human reaction with ?ms factored in for shutter lag

? = the rated lag for the mirrorless camera

 ;)
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