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Author Topic: Adobe Color Printer Utility – New Problem ? (Mac OS El Capitan 10.11.6)  (Read 4789 times)

Simon J.A. Simpson

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After updating to El Capitan, and trying some experiments with the Adobe Color Printer Utility (ACPU), I noticed that the printed targets for profiling exhibited very different colours that those printed under Lion (10.7.5).  I tried a variety of checks and ALL files without a profile attached (untagged) exhibit the same shift – darkening of the image and a loss of saturation.  Some files below show the effect.  The ones labelled “PS” are as displayed in Photoshop and replicated how they were printed in Lion.  The ones labelled “ACPU” are as displayed in ACPU and print much as shown.

Has anyone else noticed this problem ?  Is it the same in Sierra ?

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Mark D Segal

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Maybe I'm dense today, but I read this three times over and I don't understand what this comparison is. Did you do everything (underline everything) exactly the same except for the difference of OS version, or are there any (repeat any) other settings or printing arrangements that may have differed in what you did between OS 10.7 and OS 10.11? It seems strange because over the past several years I've upgraded my OS from 10.6.8 to 10.11.x and except for that incident we had with PS 2015.5, all my colour management has been working consistently.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Simon J.A. Simpson

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Sorry, Mark, I may not have explained myself very clearly.

Printing the untagged targets from ACPU under Lion produced the correct results from which an accurate profile could be generated.  Printing the same targets with everything the same, but under El Capitan, produced targets which were degraded (as shown).  The images in my original post are for illustrative purposes to show the differences except that the screen shots of the targets in ACPU show fairly accurately how the targets actually print.  This is irrespective of the target and is replicated with every untagged image (I even tried some other untagged images to check it wasn't just the targets).

I can create accurate and usable profiles using targets printed directly from the ColorMunki software, but ACPU will not print the targets correctly.  My colour management is working fine and I can produce excellent prints using the profiles created from the ColorMunki software.

The only differences here are the operating system and that ACPU will not display or print untagged images correctly.

Have you recently tried printing targets from ACPU under El Capitan 10.11.6; and do they match targets printed under earlier Mac operating systems ?  A quick test is to make an image containing maximum saturation CYM and RGB, and compare it in Photoshop and ACPU (in my illustrations the differences are somewhat obscured by the complex second target).

It would be good to know if this is a problem with ACPU and more recent iterations of the Mac operating system, or whether it is something particular to my system.  It would also be good to know whether this is replicated under Sierra.
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howardm

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You *may* want to try printing via the Colorsync Utility and see how that output compares to ACPU under the different OS's.  There is a pulldown that lets you 'print as target'

Mark D Segal

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Sorry, Mark, I may not have explained myself very clearly.

Printing the untagged targets from ACPU under Lion produced the correct results from which an accurate profile could be generated.  Printing the same targets with everything the same, but under El Capitan, produced targets which were degraded (as shown).  The images in my original post are for illustrative purposes to show the differences except that the screen shots of the targets in ACPU show fairly accurately how the targets actually print.  This is irrespective of the target and is replicated with every untagged image (I even tried some other untagged images to check it wasn't just the targets).

I can create accurate and usable profiles using targets printed directly from the ColorMunki software, but ACPU will not print the targets correctly.  My colour management is working fine and I can produce excellent prints using the profiles created from the ColorMunki software.

The only differences here are the operating system and that ACPU will not display or print untagged images correctly.

Have you recently tried printing targets from ACPU under El Capitan 10.11.6; and do they match targets printed under earlier Mac operating systems ?  A quick test is to make an image containing maximum saturation CYM and RGB, and compare it in Photoshop and ACPU (in my illustrations the differences are somewhat obscured by the complex second target).

It would be good to know if this is a problem with ACPU and more recent iterations of the Mac operating system, or whether it is something particular to my system.  It would also be good to know whether this is replicated under Sierra.

OK, that's all very clear, and no - I have no problems printing fine targets from ACPU and El Capitan from which I generate highly accurate profiles for Epson printers; but not for Canon printers, for which latter it is recommended to use Canon's Print Studio Pro.

So this would suggest there is something going on at your end which isn't at mine.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Simon J.A. Simpson

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Mark.  Well one difference here is that I am using Canon printers whilst you are using an Epson.  Hmmm, thinking… ?
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Simon J.A. Simpson

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Mark.  I have attached a file which is an untagged TIFF.  Would you mind opening this in ACPU and the ColorSync utility to see what you get ?  You should see fully saturated CYM and RGB.

Thank you.
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Simon J.A. Simpson

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It should look like this.
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Mark D Segal

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Mark.  Well one difference here is that I am using Canon printers whilst you are using an Epson.  Hmmm, thinking… ?

OK, we can stop right there - I know the problem, as I use both Canon and Epson. You didn't say you are on Canon. Right. You cannot use ACPU with current Canon printers on recent Mac OSX versions; and I can't find out why. Anyhow, you should print the targets from Canon's Print Studio Pro with Color Management (or Color Correction) turned OFF in that application. This is why you are having a problem. Try printing your targets through the Canon utility and see what happens.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Simon J.A. Simpson

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You *may* want to try printing via the Colorsync Utility and see how that output compares to ACPU under the different OS's.  There is a pulldown that lets you 'print as target'

Howard.  Well I did reply to this, and posted it, but it seems to have been eaten by the system !
I'll try to remember what I said.  So…

I just tried this and, nope, the result is the same.

Interestingly, using the ColorSync Utility, I tried assigning a ‘display’ profile of ProPhoto RGB and this improved matters considerably.  But assigning Adobe RGB degraded the image; and assigning sRGB degraded it even more.

If memory serves, the symptoms of darkened and desaturated targets occurred under the last ‘printing with no colour management’ debacle when it appeared that the OS was trying to insert an sRGB profile into the printing pipeline.  I wonder… ?
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Simon J.A. Simpson

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OK, we can stop right there - I know the problem, as I use both Canon and Epson. You didn't say you are on Canon. Right. You cannot use ACPU with current Canon printers on recent Mac OSX versions; and I can't find out why. Anyhow, you should print the targets from Canon's Print Studio Pro with Color Management (or Color Correction) turned OFF in that application. This is why you are having a problem. Try printing your targets through the Canon utility and see what happens.

Mark.  I tried to do this but couldn’t find this option in Print Studio Pro.  I wondered if it is only available for some Canon printers from the Pro1000 up (I have a Pro 1 and and A4 office printer).  I’ll have another root around and see if I can find it.
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Mark D Segal

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Mark.  I tried to do this but couldn’t find this option in Print Studio Pro.  I wondered if it is only available for some Canon printers from the Pro1000 up (I have a Pro 1 and and A4 office printer).  I’ll have another root around and see if I can find it.

Let's leave the office printer out of this loop. The Pro 1, however should allow this through PSP, though I can't be sure because I never tested a Pro-1. This would be a question to put to Canon if you can't find out from the PSP manual. The version of PSP that ships with the Pro-1000 definitely allows you to turn off colour management toward the bottom of the panels you can scroll down the right side of the interface.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Simon J.A. Simpson

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OK, we can stop right there - I know the problem, as I use both Canon and Epson. You didn't say you are on Canon. Right. You cannot use ACPU with current Canon printers on recent Mac OSX versions; and I can't find out why. Anyhow, you should print the targets from Canon's Print Studio Pro with Color Management (or Color Correction) turned OFF in that application. This is why you are having a problem. Try printing your targets through the Canon utility and see what happens.

OK.  I've just had a root around and there doesn't seem to be any way of truing-off colour management.  Having tried all the options available I assume this is to be found under the “Color Matching Method:” which remains stubbornly greyed-out and displays “OS Standard CMM”.  I have the most up-to-date version 2.1.1.

There is this menu (see below).  “Linear Tone” ?  Could that be without colour management ?

Also, of course, this doesn’t explain the display variations as the printer driver will have nothing to do with this.  Are you using the same version of El Capitan as me ?
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Mark D Segal

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Is your printer driver fully up-to-date.

According to this, you should have full functionality of PSP with Canon Pro-1 provided the driver is up to date:

PSP Manual CUSA

And yes, it should be under color matching method, but not greyed-out. I'm not sure "Linear tone" is the same thing as "No color management" in Canonese - somehow I doubt it.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Simon J.A. Simpson

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Let's leave the office printer out of this loop. The Pro 1, however should allow this through PSP, though I can't be sure because I never tested a Pro-1. This would be a question to put to Canon if you can't find out from the PSP manual. The version of PSP that ships with the Pro-1000 definitely allows you to turn off colour management toward the bottom of the panels you can scroll down the right side of the interface.

A little internet research.  You have to use the Color Management Tool Pro for the Pro 1.
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Simon J.A. Simpson

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Is your printer driver fully up-to-date.

According to this, you should have full functionality of PSP with Canon Pro-1 provided the driver is up to date:

PSP Manual CUSA

And yes, it should be under color matching method, but not greyed-out. I'm not sure "Linear tone" is the same thing as "No color management" in Canonese - somehow I doubt it.

Yes, latest versions of PSP and driver.
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Simon J.A. Simpson

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Mark (or anyone).

Have you had a chance to open the TIFF file I posted and see if it displays and prints correctly from ACPU (or the ColorSync Utility) – in either El Capitan or Sierra ?

I will try making a profile using Canon's utility.  Previous attempts under Lion produced a profile that was complete rubbish (you had to have seen the 3D projection of the colour space to believe it !) but perhaps the newer version works correctly.  I'll see; and report back.

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Mark D Segal

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Mark (or anyone).

Have you had a chance to open the TIFF file I posted and see if it displays and prints correctly from ACPU (or the ColorSync Utility) – in either El Capitan or Sierra ?

I will try making a profile using Canon's utility.  Previous attempts under Lion produced a profile that was complete rubbish (you had to have seen the 3D projection of the colour space to believe it !) but perhaps the newer version works correctly.  I'll see; and report back.

Yes, I have opened with ACPU the TIFF you posted and no, it does not look like the image you said it should look like. The reason is that ACPU is using sRGB as the preview colour space, which clips colours that are out of sRGB gamut, while Photoshop, when set to ProPhoto space shows the colours as you say they should be. I have provided two comparisons between ACPU and Photoshop, one where the latter's working colour space is set to sRGB (matches the ACPU view) and another where the working colour space is set to ProPhoto (does not match the ACPU view). None of this has anything to do with the real problem you are facing of printing profiling targets with the most recent OSX versions and Canon Printers: ACPU is not usable in this context for reasons that remain to be explained by anyone who knows this from the inside and is willing to respond.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Simon J.A. Simpson

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Mark.  Thank you very much for trying this.  And, yes, I agree with diagnosis.

I will report back on using Canon's Color Management Tool Pro.  I hope this works otherwise anyone with a Canon Pro 1, a Mac, and El Capitan (and perhaps Sierra) will be unable to print targets for profiling !  Not good.  Unless you have a ColorMunki in which case you can print direct from the software (I assume this doesn't apply with the i1 Profiler and its ilk ?).

Much obliged for your patient advice.
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Simon J.A. Simpson

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I've spoken to Canon European Support and the Color Management Tool Pro is not supported beyond Mac OS 10.10.X.

They are investigating to see how targets can be printed without colour management to the Canon Pro 1 printer.
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