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Author Topic: I know it is wishful thinking, but . . .  (Read 723 times)

Rand47

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I know it is wishful thinking, but . . .
« on: April 15, 2017, 04:54:43 PM »

I miss very much the regular input of Andrew Rodney and Jeff Schewe in this section of LULA.  I've learned so much from LULA, and principally from Andrew and Jeff (and of course from the Mike & Jeff videos!!!).  There are still real experts here and I continue to come here to learn, and even occasionally offer something myself - but it just ain't the same.  Both of those guys are true experts, generous, and tough-minded at the same time.  A rare and valuable combination.

Dang... time marches on, but sometimes one would just like to freeze a "season" and stay there.

Rand
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rdonson

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Re: I know it is wishful thinking, but . . .
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2017, 05:17:21 PM »

Well said, Rand.  I've learned a lot from both over the years and my bookshelf is testimony to their knowledge as well..
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Ron

Schewe

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Re: I know it is wishful thinking, but . . .
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2017, 05:41:59 PM »

Dang... time marches on, but sometimes one would just like to freeze a "season" and stay there.

Well, ya gotta ask a question ya know? What's your question? If I don't know, I'll ask Andrew...(doubt I'll have to cause I know everything he knows :~)

The problem is there hasn't been any substantial changes or improvements in CM for a long time. It seem the biggest "issues" are caused either by Adobe pr Apple or both. MSFT seems really benign by comparison.

BTW I'm working on a brief history of color spaces to publish in a month or so here on LuLa. I actually got Photoshop 5 (not CS5) working on an old G4 running 10.4.11 and the last version of Classic with System 9.2. Really weird actually. Photoshop 4 and 5 were so primitive! I keep that old laptop running just so I can go back and run old versions all the way back to Photoshop .87 and Display.
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Rhossydd

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Re: I know it is wishful thinking, but . . .
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2017, 06:03:23 PM »

The problem is there hasn't been any substantial changes or improvements in CM for a long time. It seem the biggest "issues" are caused either by Adobe pr Apple or both.
CM not changing is hardly "a problem" it broadly works well.
Apple and Adobe keep tripping themselves up, but if you avoid that combination it's all been working just fine for years now.
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Schewe

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Re: I know it is wishful thinking, but . . .
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2017, 06:17:25 PM »

Apple and Adobe keep tripping themselves up...

Well, LuLa was at the center of the fix for Adobe's CM screwup last year. Mark Segal was instrumental in "proving" that something was wrong because Mark had been doing a ton of paper tests and had the numbers to prove it was an Adobe not an Apple problem. A little birdie told Adobe that Mark had the proof and helped facilitate a solution and a fast turn around for the bug fix!
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rdonson

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Re: I know it is wishful thinking, but . . .
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2017, 09:07:25 PM »

from my lowly position CM works great and I've seen great strides in the ICC profiles that paper companies now provide.  I see Andrew's handiwork from at least one company.

The missing link now seems to be soft proofing.  It seems that it's more magic than it should be.
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Regards,
Ron

Jim Kasson

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Re: I know it is wishful thinking, but . . .
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2017, 09:15:10 PM »

CM not changing is hardly "a problem" it broadly works well.


A lot of missed opportunities: viewing conditions correction, image-aware gamut mapping, neighborhood-mediated gamut mapping, etc.

Of course, if you never had it, you probably didn't miss it.

Jim

Rand47

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Re: I know it is wishful thinking, but . . .
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2017, 10:41:22 PM »

Quote
Well, ya gotta ask a question ya know? What's your question?

Hi Jeff,

Do wet birds fly at night?  Oh, not CM related!  :P

I suspect you're right.  I have things dialed in pretty well thanks to you.  And I'm about to have Andrew make some profiles for my new P5000. 

Oh, and thanks for being "the bird."

Your video on soft proofing was super.  I'd like to see LULA do more of that. Perhaps an occasional video showing working a challenging file from ingestion, to soft proofed, to print. 

Anyway, props!

Rand
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Doug Gray

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Re: I know it is wishful thinking, but . . .
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2017, 01:48:43 AM »

I too miss Andrew here even though I've had a few knock down back and forths with him. That sort of thing doesn't annoy me though as I learn much more that way. I think all of us do if we think about it.

His videos are quite good and he does a good job explaining what he is doing. Probably a result of tuning his pedagogical technique from all the training he does. He makes a real contribution to getting high quality color management to large numbers of people.

The Schewe softproof video here is sort of folksy and, I think, uses a more realistic image. It should appeal to, and be more effective with, serious photographers without going as deep in the weeds. Andrew's image of choice for evaluating profiles is really good for those images with colors that are extremely out of gamut. The one with the balls and fish on a blue tarp for instance. An analysis of the colors in it (ProPhoto RGB) shows a large amount of the ball colors are imaginary (outside the human gamut) and many of the colors on the images are outside of the Macadam gamut, which is the theoretical limit of any reflecting surface. Needless to say printer gamuts are well inside that.

Since I really don't do much work with such saturated colors, how a profile performs on these isn't of much interest to me but I can see its value to others. Especially in showing how different profiles map out of gamut colors.

My main interest is in the smoothness of printing for in gamut colors. This is where most of us work day to day and sudden non-linearities in color gradients because of profile or, worse, printer error is a full stop if bad enough. There is precious little about this that I have found anywhere and it would be a particularly valuable thing to measure when  reviewing printers.

My reference images of choice are the old Kodak Photo Disc and the Roman-16 set.  The latter skirt what printers can do but the colors are all real and within Macadam limits.
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Chris_Brown

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Re: I know it is wishful thinking, but . . .
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2017, 12:27:37 PM »

It seem the biggest "issues" are caused either by Adobe pr Apple or both. MSFT seems really benign by comparison.

Yup. And back in '95 I thought this impossible.  SMH.

Quote
BTW I'm working on a brief history of color spaces to publish in a month or so here on LuLa.

Hmm. Sounds like I finally might have to pay up for a subscription.
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rdonson

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Re: I know it is wishful thinking, but . . .
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2017, 01:03:45 PM »

The Schewe/Raber soft proofing video was VERY helpful for me.  In it though, Jeff, talked about how soft proofing could be made even better.
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Regards,
Ron
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