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Author Topic: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You  (Read 4657 times)

fotagf8

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Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« on: April 13, 2017, 02:24:14 pm »

I was out at Fermi Labs this past weekend in Batavia, Illinois to photograph some of the buildings.  I was listening to one tour guide who claimed that Fermi Labs had built a 500+ megapixel camera.  I suspect it may be very different from the cameras that we deal with, but it does demonstrate that someone will always have a better camera than you do, no matter how spec'd out your camera is.  I laughed as I thought about the ongoing debate over whether the X1D is better than the GFX, and whether either one is in the same ballpark as the PhaseOne and Hasselblad 100mp cameras.

I don't know if this is the camera the guide was speaking about, but here is a photograph that was taken with a 570mp camera.  http://www.fnal.gov/pub/presspass/misc/2015/DES_Camera_Catches_Comet_Lovejoy.html

You might also enjoy the interview with Edward Burtynsky that was posted today on PetaPixel.  Deep into the interview, Brutynsky discusses why he has chosen Hasselblad over PhaseOne.  Lots of other interesting stuff in the interview, but it does start out a bit slowly.
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voidshatter

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2017, 02:54:33 pm »

That camera doesn't shoot 4k video hand-held with WiFi and built-in instagram. I prefer an iPhone 8+ with dual lens and OLED screen.
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landscapephoto

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2017, 03:15:44 pm »

You might also enjoy the interview with Edward Burtynsky that was posted today on PetaPixel.  Deep into the interview, Brutynsky discusses why he has chosen Hasselblad over PhaseOne.

He says: "I like the Hasselblad for particular characteristics and how it handles the files because I always shot with negative film. Hasselblad ended up buying the Dutch company Imacon. All of their color tables they gave to Hasselblad which had the color that I like. I found the colors with Phase were more commercial. It felt like chrome. I like the softer world of the color negative —that negative to print feel.".
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fotagf8

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2017, 04:17:25 pm »

Oh boy here we go.

Not sure why, "Here we go" should come to mind.  I found that quote to be one of the more interesting in the interview.  He told you exactly why he selected one camera over another.  He examined both cameras, and for him, the deciding factor was color for very articulated differences in his perception.  End of story.  I can promise you one thing: He doesn't care what anyone on this or any other forum thinks about his choice.  I also found it noteworthy that he had just upped his gear from 60 to 100mp.  He could well have afforded and justified doing that 9 months ago given what his work commands in the marketplace.
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landscapephoto

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2017, 04:21:20 pm »

Oh boy here we go.

That is not what I intended.

Let me just say it differently. I am pretty sure that Phase One users are quite happy with their cameras. After all, in the time of film, some preferred chrome and others preferred negative. And why not? It depends on how you want your pictures to look.

But I like the colors on my H camera a lot and I was quite pleased to find out someone I admire for his work had the same taste in colors.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2017, 04:37:49 pm »

Sounds like he didn't work with a Phase One dealer who knew about the Leaf Color profiles for Phase One backs. They have the same softer curved muted feel of neg as he's describing.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 05:04:31 pm by Doug Peterson »
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fotagf8

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2017, 04:52:43 pm »

Sounds like he didn't work with a Phase One dealer who knew about the Leaf Color profiles for Phase One backs. They have the same softer curved muted feel of meg as he's describing.

If I recall from the interview, he has a staff of 30 employees.  He also is internationally recognized as an important "museum collection" photographer.  I guarantee you, he worked with whoever he want to in selecting a camera system, and they gave him incredible service.  Stop using this forum to advertise your srvices, which is what your post is all about.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2017, 05:04:11 pm »

If I recall from the interview, he has a staff of 30 employees.  He also is internationally recognized as an important "museum collection" photographer.  I guarantee you, he worked with whomever he wanted to in selecting a camera system, and they gave him incredible service. Stop using this forum to advertise your services, which is what your post is all about.

I don't know this photographer at all. But I would not guarantee that at all.

Many highly successful photographers have never worked with a dealer that knows more than they do about cameras, and often don't even know such dealers exist. Their experience is limited to the local camera store from the 80s, staffed with college students, that they shopped at before they switched to buying everyone on Amazon.

I've worked with several "big name" shooters who refused any help we'd offer as they evaluated cameras. They just wanted to pick up a camera and test it on their own. Which is fine, except I'll often hear reports from their assistants later that they ran into any number of roadblocks or questions that we could have answered for them instantly. Instead they Google around or give up. It's a forehead-smacking moment when it's your full-time profession to help people looking at cameras.

The sad fact is many people are "allergic" to anyone remotely related to "sales" - Based on your hostile reaction above maybe you fit into this category. If you'd ever had a beer with me, or had my help on something camera related I don't think that hostility would be there.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 05:14:11 pm by Doug Peterson »
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landscapephoto

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2017, 05:25:38 pm »

I don't know this photographer at all.

Probably you do. Here is the interview: https://petapixel.com/2017/04/13/interview-edward-burtynsky/

And, as much as I appreciate to have competent dealers on this forum, I think that fotagf8 is right here: you are on the wrong side of the fine line between helpful dealer and advertisement in this post. Not by far, maybe, but still. You could just have noted that there is a third color rendering choice on the market, from Leaf. That would have been sufficient.
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voidshatter

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2017, 05:56:59 pm »

It's a forehead-smacking moment when it's your full-time profession to help people looking at cameras.

The sad fact is many people are "allergic" to anyone remotely related to "sales" - Based on your hostile reaction above maybe you fit into this category. If you'd ever had a beer with me, or had my help on something camera related I don't think that hostility would be there.

I would give you "A" for your work as a dealer (no sarcasm here). Probably won't find anyone else better at a dealer's job!
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2017, 06:12:34 pm »

Probably you do. Here is the interview: https://petapixel.com/2017/04/13/interview-edward-burtynsky/

Sorry I meant that I don't know him personally. I don't know what personality or personal preferences he has.

DrakeJ

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2017, 03:03:42 am »

Sounds like he didn't work with a Phase One dealer who knew about the Leaf Color profiles for Phase One backs. They have the same softer curved muted feel of neg as he's describing.

Can you provide the Leaf Color profiles to all IQ backs?

landscapephoto

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2017, 03:19:29 am »

In any case, I do not know which system has more of a "film color" quality to it.

Burtynsky did not say one system behaves more like film, he said one system behaves more like negative film and the other one more like slide film.

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When I used to own MF gear it was a Leaf back, and yes the colors were nice, but usually I would change them to my own version of nice. Unlike a film negative, a digital negative lives in a software full of presets and sliders in all directions with the sole purpose of tweaking the colors.
Heck I can make the colors of a Nikon file look like they were shot with Portra 400.

Well, I can't and apparently Burtynsky can't either. I can get a close approximation, but the files behave a bit differently between camera brands.

I would also say that the capabilities of color tweaking in photo software are crude compared to what one gets on the video market, so some progress is still possible.
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Chris Livsey

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2017, 04:12:02 am »

Perhaps before jumping to conclusions about what is "film like" in his eyes you should read what he says about film:

And you were shooting print film?

Print film, Portra.

So, there’s some latitude.

 There isn’t latitude. If it’s contrasty, and the shadows are too deep, then there’s nothing.


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razrblck

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2017, 10:03:05 am »

Heard many stories like yours, Doug, from my friends who own a photography shop and have been selling gear for almost 20 years. I've seen some really sad scenes myself just hanging around in their shop while printing.

Knowing someone is a very different experience, I can just hang out with them, try some stuff (if it's demo), they even let me handle my own prints from start to finish. If a physical shop can't give you this kind of more personal experience, then what is it good for? I'm always willing to pay a bit more from them rather than get from Amazon or other online stores simply because that extra money gives me top notch service.

If I stop by NY and you don't mind me poking around your shop I'll gladly stop by for a chat!
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2017, 10:46:12 am »

Heard many stories like yours, Doug, from my friends who own a photography shop and have been selling gear for almost 20 years. I've seen some really sad scenes myself just hanging around in their shop while printing. [...]

If I stop by NY and you don't mind me poking around your shop I'll gladly stop by for a chat!

A chat. A camera test. A beer. A game of cards. Always down to meet people from the forums.

Doug Peterson

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2017, 11:01:27 am »

Can you provide the Leaf Color profiles to all IQ backs?

I've done custom-profiles to match customers' new backs to their previous Leaf back. Our experience in Cultural Heritage helps with this. I think those Leaf inspired profiles that I've made were quite good. But as landscapephoto mentioned in this thread, it's hard for the end-user, even with strong knowledge and expensive color profiling tools, to match colors between cameras as well on their own as the manufacturer's color team can do. Niels and his team, damn them, have access to proprietary tools and technical information, when they create the Leaf Look profiles for Phase One backs.

As far as Leaf Color Profiles from Phase One itself goes today they are only available for 100mp models. Doing proper color profiles is a lengthy process which you can hear something about in our recording of our Leaf Color event. But be forewarned the video set up was a last minute add on and leaves much to be desired. So for today only on the 100mp models. For previews of the future I suggest signing up for the beta program or speak with your dealer.

fotagf8

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2017, 12:17:32 pm »

I don't know this photographer at all. But I would not guarantee that at all.


I would suggest that you get to know him:  http://www.edwardburtynsky.com/site_contents/About/aboutCV.html.  As you will see, his work is held in major museum and corporate collections around the world.  A search on Artnet shows that he also is represented by major galleries that specialize in photography, including Howard Greenberg in New York and Flowers in London.  Amazon carries a number of his books, many published by Steidl. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=edward+burtynsky.

You then write:

Quote
Many highly successful photographers have never worked with a dealer that knows more than they do about cameras, and often don't even know such dealers exist. Their experience is limited to the local camera store from the 80s, staffed with college students, that they shopped at before they switched to buying everyone on Amazon.

I've worked with several "big name" shooters who refused any help we'd offer as they evaluated cameras. They just wanted to pick up a camera and test it on their own. Which is fine, except I'll often hear reports from their assistants later that they ran into any number of roadblocks or questions that we could have answered for them instantly. Instead they Google around or give up. It's a forehead-smacking moment when it's your full-time profession to help people looking at cameras.

While I don't know Mr. Burtynsky personally, I have little doubt that he has the technical chops.  If you read the PetaPixel interview in full, that is readily apparent.  He founded Toronto Images Works, which now employs 30 people.  It originally focused on his own printing needs, but as an apparently exceptional businessman, Mr. Burtynsky branched out, making the services available to other photographers in Canada, the U.S., Europe, and presumably other locales.  The company offers a wide range of services, many of the same type offered by companies like Bay Photo and other labs that serve photographers.  I am willing to bet that at least at the outset, he was very detailed oriented and exacting when it comes to technical details.  He most likely still is, but he now has "people" who know what he wants.

You then say,

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The sad fact is many people are "allergic" to anyone remotely related to "sales" -

Possibly people operating at Burtynsky's level (and at other levels, for that matter) are more interested in dealing with people who understand the artistry of what they are doing rather than just the technical details. You seem to believe the customer must speak on your terms (highly technical), rather than you taking the time to understand the customer's terms, which may go well beyond just technical issues and more pixels.  The customer may not be allergic to you.  He or she may simply be uninterested in your approach. I am currently finishing a book entitled Focus: The Secret Sexy, Sometimes Sordi World of Fashion Photographers by Michael Gross.  I am not a fashion photographer, nor was I particularly interested in the genre before picking up the book.  It is a comprehensive history of the genre.  It does not focus on equipment, but equipment certainly comes up.  For many of these leading photographers, equipment was secondary, yet they were recognized as masters of their craft.  Once again, these folks may not be interested in a sales person who overwhelms them with technical details.  They may be far more responsive to a salesman who gets into their mindset as photographers and who is familiar with their work.

No hostility on my part.  I have a strong viewpoint.  If camera sales people want to provide pure information--answering a question about a technical matter or how to do something that someone on the forum asks--I don't have a problem with that, as long as the sales person clearly identifies the affiliation.  On the other hand, I don't think forums should turn into places for advertising.  In my mind, your original post crossed the line.  It was a cheeky way to say, "Call me, so I can sell you a camera."

I haven't had a beer with you, but I have met you on several occasions.



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Jeffery Salter

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2017, 04:32:07 pm »

Doug has over three thousand five hundred sixty one posts on the forum. Surely you can find a nugget of information which maybe of service to your photography.  As for me, Doug has been an immense help to me and my photography.

He has an deep well of technical knowledge of photography in which he freely shares ,as well as if you research his personal work, a great eye.

Thanks Doug.  You rock.
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UlfKrentz

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Re: Someone Always Has Bigger Hands Than You
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2017, 05:09:41 pm »

He says: "I like the Hasselblad for particular characteristics and how it handles the files because I always shot with negative film. Hasselblad ended up buying the Dutch company Imacon. All of their color tables they gave to Hasselblad which had the color that I like. I found the colors with Phase were more commercial. It felt like chrome. I like the softer world of the color negative —that negative to print feel.".

Since when was Imacon a Dutch company? AFAIK they were Danish.
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