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Author Topic: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50  (Read 18705 times)

Jim Kasson

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2017, 12:02:01 pm »


The focusing error that Jim has observed is very odd.

Reminds me. In Jim's early tests it semt like it was focusing on the red channel. I don't think Jim found an explanation, but it was also very odd.



The red channel focusing was observed with a particular lens on an a7RII, not the GFX. That is not what is going on with the GFX. I don't know what the GFX is really focusing on, and the high scatter in the data at the suspect f-stops makes me think that is not reliably focusing on anything. Again, I want to emphasize that the error is small.

Jim

Brad P

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2017, 02:24:02 pm »

Hi Jim - along the above lines, I don't know if you have started the 63mm MF tests yet, but a real world distance test for that lens might set up an interesting contrast.  I'm imagining something along the lines of those trees where you did corner comparisons between lenses, looking instead for near/far focus misses.  Just a thought. 
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2017, 03:10:48 pm »

Hi Jim - along the above lines, I don't know if you have started the 63mm MF tests yet, but a real world distance test for that lens might set up an interesting contrast.  I'm imagining something along the lines of those trees where you did corner comparisons between lenses, looking instead for near/far focus misses.  Just a thought.

That's gonna have to wait for better weather, and, because of the statistical nature of the AF issue, will require multiple shots.

I did do the lab test this morning (usual warning about numbers):

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/fujifilm-gfx-with-632-8-mf-accuracy/

Conclusion: manual focusing at the taking aperture works fine (but you gotta remember to hit the stop-down button first), and is much better than AF at the questionable f-stops of f/4, f/5.6, and f/8, and is somewhat better at the other f-stops.

Jim

hubell

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #63 on: April 17, 2017, 03:37:31 pm »

Good luck with that solution. [G] With the GFX, I couldn't reliably use manual focus in magnified live view even in good light with the lens wide open. I can't imagine trying to do that in low light with the lens stopped down (e.g., for  landscape photography at the transitional times of day around sunrise and sunset).

Jim Kasson

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2017, 04:17:29 pm »

Good luck with that solution. [G] With the GFX, I couldn't reliably use manual focus in magnified live view even in good light with the lens wide open. I can't imagine trying to do that in low light with the lens stopped down (e.g., for  landscape photography at the transitional times of day around sunrise and sunset).

Were you using it in conjunction with peaking? For me, that makes all the difference. I find it quite acceptable with peaking turned on, though I wish there were less aggressive settings available.

Jim

Brad P

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2017, 04:26:43 pm »

Conclusion: manual focusing at the taking aperture works fine (but you gotta remember to hit the stop-down button first), and is much better than AF at the questionable f-stops of f/4, f/5.6, and f/8, and is somewhat better at the other f-stops.

Another great test.  It pays to manually focus For many reasons, and that's true for reasons seen here with the GFX.  Maybe even more interesting is what you saw incidentally with your follow up wide open 16 shot test ... if that variance comes from the focus by wire implementation as you suspect, presumably you would not see that with a good purely mechanical focus lens.  That could impact lens choice, especially after the 100MP back comes out in a few years. 

I predict your series will live on for a while!  Good stuff Jim!
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Brad P

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2017, 04:34:30 pm »

P.S.  Also, the 16 shot test results (if it is a loosey goosey focus by wire or other lens issue) could provide at least some suggestion of why the AF system performs more erratically than one might hope for.   
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hubell

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2017, 04:34:49 pm »

Were you using it in conjunction with peaking? For me, that makes all the difference. I find it quite acceptable with peaking turned on, though I wish there were less aggressive settings available.

Jim

No. I did not try it with peaking. I have a Sony A7RII and have tried peking with it but found it too "indiscriminate"so I never thought to try it. I am not sure how you would do an objective test to see how reliable your stopped down, manual focus technique would be in practice in low light conditions in the field, but it would be interesting to just compare visually a bunch of attempts using both the AF and your MF approach on the same scene in low light. It's apparent that the GFX lenses are extremely capable, but the issue is being able to wring the best out of them on a reliable basis.

Jim Kasson

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2017, 04:46:55 pm »

No. I did not try it with peaking. I have a Sony A7RII and have tried peking with it but found it too "indiscriminate"so I never thought to try it. I am not sure how you would do an objective test to see how reliable your stopped down, manual focus technique would be in practice in low light conditions in the field, but it would be interesting to just compare visually a bunch of attempts using both the AF and your MF approach on the same scene in low light. It's apparent that the GFX lenses are extremely capable, but the issue is being able to wring the best out of them on a reliable basis.

I don't find the a7RII peaking indiscriminate at max magnification, although it certainly is at full frame. I wish the GFX were more like that, considering that the sensor is so sharp. I do like it that the a7RII has a third peaking setting. I did a comparison of the a7RII peaking and the Atomos Shogun peaking at high magnification, and ended up liking the a7RII's sudden threshold, although the Shogun's adjust ability was better. Still, the Shogun is a big step up for the D810, which doesn't offer peaking.

None of these cameras offer peaking for variations in both directions, which is bad in a way and good in a way. The bad is obvious. The good is that you can change sensitivity by camera rotation with a subject whose contrast is anisotropic. The C! provides a convenient way to do that.

Jim

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2017, 11:21:41 am »

Hi Everyone,

Peaking is just some kind edge detection on the live view image, as far as I understand. On the A7rII viewfinder resolution is around XGA, using edge detection on an XGA image serving as proxy for a 7K image is obviously very coarse.

I normally don't use peaking, except as a 'navigation tool' when doing tilts. Peaking is very good finding a near optimal tilt. After that I switch to magnified view an do the rest. This works very well under field conditions.

In dark places, I prefer to use maximum aperture for focusing. A problem with maximum aperture is that there may be to many residual aberrations to gain a clear focus, that is the exact cause of focus shift, once you get rid of the periferal rays you get a different and better focus. A perfect lens would have zero focus shift and it would perform best at full aperture.

Personally, I would like to see more of high quality lenses of medium aperture, that are well corrected enough to reach peak performance across the field no later than f/5.6.

Another factor is steepness of focusing. It is helpful to have a lens that snaps in and out of focus, while you still need to be able to move the ring with some precision. Dead on focusing makes some demands on lens, gear and photographer!

Best regards
Erik



I don't find the a7RII peaking indiscriminate at max magnification, although it certainly is at full frame. I wish the GFX were more like that, considering that the sensor is so sharp. I do like it that the a7RII has a third peaking setting. I did a comparison of the a7RII peaking and the Atomos Shogun peaking at high magnification, and ended up liking the a7RII's sudden threshold, although the Shogun's adjust ability was better. Still, the Shogun is a big step up for the D810, which doesn't offer peaking.

None of these cameras offer peaking for variations in both directions, which is bad in a way and good in a way. The bad is obvious. The good is that you can change sensitivity by camera rotation with a subject whose contrast is anisotropic. The C! provides a convenient way to do that.

Jim
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2017, 11:38:18 am »


I normally don't use peaking, except as a 'navigation tool' when doing tilts. Peaking is very good finding a near optimal tilt. After that I switch to magnified view an do the rest. This works very well under field conditions.

Sounds like you're not using peaking in conjunction with magnified view. That's where it works best, IMHO. That also gets around most of the resolution problem that you mentioned.

Jim

Jim Kasson

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Focusing the 63 wide open
« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2017, 04:19:18 pm »

Erik had an idea that, given the modest amount of focus shift of the Fuji 63, that it might be a better strategy to focus wide open.

Turns out he was right, at least at 3 meters:

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/fujifilm-gfx-with-632-8-wide-open-mf/

Jim

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2017, 05:07:29 pm »

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the suggestion! i have not found as useful as you do and that may depend on my lenses being more mediocre than yours. ( :-) or what you call it :-( ).

But, life is a learning experience. I know how to listen, so I will test with different settings.

BTW, I really would like to have a camera that I could set up from my computer, using a real menu system or even CLI :-)

Best regards
Erik


Sounds like you're not using peaking in conjunction with magnified view. That's where it works best, IMHO. That also gets around most of the resolution problem that you mentioned.

Jim
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Focusing the 63 wide open
« Reply #73 on: April 18, 2017, 07:44:09 pm »

Erik had an idea that, given the modest amount of focus shift of the Fuji 63, that it might be a better strategy to focus wide open.

Turns out he was right, at least at 3 meters:

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/fujifilm-gfx-with-632-8-wide-open-mf/


Sadly, that trick doesn't work with the 120 mm f/4 macro.

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/fujifilm-gfx-with-1204-wide-open-mf/

Jim

pschefz

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2017, 09:43:39 pm »

i have to say that i never shoot on tripod and only have the zoom for my gfx 50 so far but i even chasing people around i find the AF pretty amazing....i am getting close to the same keeper rate as with the A7RII and GM 24-70...but i am not shooting sports, just lifestyle, fashion stuff....AF is no problem at all....
i used to shoot phase and leaf backs on mamiya RZ and 645 and gave up on it because it was impossible to get a good keeper rate....
i have used hasselblad H bodies and the AF is awful, phase is not much better....
i was really excited and really wanted the X1D...tried it and wasn't to happy with files and AF, maybe it was the earlier FW release but it just wasn't the step up for me from the sony....at least not with the AF (and don't get me started on the idiotic "moveable" AF point solution....hasselblad just messed that one up....the fuji nipple is the much better hardware solution that hasselblad just does not have....
anyway, i guess i will pay more attention to my files and see when what is not 100% in focus....the biggest difference to me is that i am so used to IBIS and i definitely have to adjust to shooting only 1/125 and up....
and yes 1/125 sync is a major bummer but hopefully someone will come up with a HSS solution sooner then later...have been trying a cactus V6II but it is not working...yet...
since this is a focus thread: i have no issues with focus on my body and lens...but that does not mean i doubt all these other experiences....the way i know fuji, we will have a firmware sooner then later to fix things.....and i am sure we will have to thanks Jim at that point for putting in all the work to point things out....
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fotagf8

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2017, 11:04:04 pm »

i have to say that i never shoot on tripod and only have the zoom for my gfx 50 so far but i even chasing people around i find the AF pretty amazing....i am getting close to the same keeper rate as with the A7RII and GM 24-70...but i am not shooting sports, just lifestyle, fashion stuff....AF is no problem at all....
i used to shoot phase and leaf backs on mamiya RZ and 645 and gave up on it because it was impossible to get a good keeper rate....
i have used hasselblad H bodies and the AF is awful, phase is not much better....
i was really excited and really wanted the X1D...tried it and wasn't to happy with files and AF, maybe it was the earlier FW release but it just wasn't the step up for me from the sony....at least not with the AF (and don't get me started on the idiotic "moveable" AF point solution....hasselblad just messed that one up....the fuji nipple is the much better hardware solution that hasselblad just does not have....
anyway, i guess i will pay more attention to my files and see when what is not 100% in focus....the biggest difference to me is that i am so used to IBIS and i definitely have to adjust to shooting only 1/125 and up....
and yes 1/125 sync is a major bummer but hopefully someone will come up with a HSS solution sooner then later...have been trying a cactus V6II but it is not working...yet...
since this is a focus thread: i have no issues with focus on my body and lens...but that does not mean i doubt all these other experiences....the way i know fuji, we will have a firmware sooner then later to fix things.....and i am sure we will have to thanks Jim at that point for putting in all the work to point things out....

I should have said this in my latest assessment/post of two days ago, so let me say it in response to your comment.  I pretty much agree with you that AF is pretty good.  When I was out on Saturday photographing the Trump Tax Return Protest in Chicago, I found it worked great picking people out of the crowd or with speakers.  I did find, however, that it had problems when I was walking against the crowd as they marched toward me, trying to get photographs of individual marchers.  If they got too close to me, I lost focus.  Having said that, I have not yet really delved into the focusing menu options to see whether I could improve the hit rate.
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pschefz

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2017, 11:51:03 am »

I should have said this in my latest assessment/post of two days ago, so let me say it in response to your comment.  I pretty much agree with you that AF is pretty good.  When I was out on Saturday photographing the Trump Tax Return Protest in Chicago, I found it worked great picking people out of the crowd or with speakers.  I did find, however, that it had problems when I was walking against the crowd as they marched toward me, trying to get photographs of individual marchers.  If they got too close to me, I lost focus.  Having said that, I have not yet really delved into the focusing menu options to see whether I could improve the hit rate.
after looking at some more files for this specific issue, i agree with everything you are saying as well....
the biggest issue for me is that AF-C just does not work or at least not in a way that i would be able to use it....there is a setting for the user to choose the image to be taken at the time the shutter is pressed or when the camera achieves focus....i prefer to have the image taken at the time i press the shutter....maybe i should try the other way but i have bad memories of this not working out too well for me in the past...that frustrated feeling of jamming down the button only to miss that moment and get a (maybe sharper?) one too late....
looks like fuji will come out with a major firmware in the near future....
either way, for larger then 35mm digital capture this is heads and shoulders above anything and everything else out there....not even close...
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2017, 05:04:16 pm »

Here's a summary of where I am on the GFX focusing issues.

Manual focus

The controls for the GFX focus magnification are ergonomically excellent. Press the back thumb wheel to enter magnified view, and spin it to change magnification. Unfortunately, the maximum magnification is not enough for critical focusing. That means that you have to use peaking. Peaking seems to have a bad name because it's such a blunt instrument when you're looking at the full image, but as the magnification goes up, it becomes more and more useful. However, with the GFX you only have two peaking sensitivities available (not counting off), and that's not enough. With a sharp lens and a high-contrast target, even at maximum magnification, setting the peaking to low will still light up the finder too much when the image is close to being in focus. With mechanically-focused lenses, you can find one side of sharp and then the other side, and split the difference. That doesn't work with focus-by wire lenses, since a given amount of twist of the focusing ring translates to different amounts of lens element motion depending on how fast and how far you move the ring.

All the things above conspire to make critical manual focusing fairly good (but far from great) with adapted helicoid lenses and barely acceptable with the native focus by wire lenses. I'd put the focusing with adapted lenses about the same as the D810 (that only applies if you turn peaking on in the GFX, though -- the D810 doesn't have peaking). With the two native lenses I've tried -- the 63 and 120 macro -- the focusing experience is better than the D800, but short of the D810. In no case does the GFX provide manual focusing that's the equal of the a7R, or even the a7RII. The standard of focusing tolerance is not the same across those cameras, since the GFX is capable of so much greater sharpness when the image is in focus; I'm being harder on the GFX because it can do so much more, and thus the consequences of a small focusing error are greater.

The best strategy for manually focusing the 63 mm f/2.8 lens is to focus wide open. The best way to deal with the 120 macro is to focus at taking aperture, or maybe slightly open from there.

Autofocus

With both native lenses, autofocus works will wide open. It also works well stopped down a fair amount. But it gives inconsistent and inaccurate results at f/4 and f/5.6 with the 63 mm lens, and at f/5.6 with the 120 macro. If you know that, you can work around the issue, which I'm hoping Fuji will fix in firmware real soon now.

Since f/8 on the GFX is about like f/5.6 on a full frame camera for diffraction and depth of field, stopping down that far is not much of a privation, and you can always use both lenses wide open if you want to blur the heck out of the background.

By the way, I don't find the GFX MF/AF mode that useful. If you've enabled it, you can autofocus the lens, then twist the focusing ring. That immediately gets you magnified view, and you can tweak the focus. However, you can't get back to viewing the full frame without losing your focus point. Or at least I can't figure out how to do it. It's probably something involving back-button focusing. I'll play with it some more.

But after doing all this testing, I've cancelled my order for the 32-64 mm zoom. I don't intend to use the camera in a setting where that lens would be most useful. That leaves me with no wide angle lenses at present, since I haven't found a FF wide that adapts well to the GFX, but I'll just wait for the 23 mm lens that was announced today.

Let me put this in perspective. There are many uses for the GFX -- perhaps the majority of them -- for which the present autofocus performance is just fine. This autofocus issue is only important if you're trying to get the most of the great sensor and the sharp native lenses. I think this situation is a ittle like the a7R shutter shock. There are many people who said that the effect didn't exist. They said that because they thought their pictures looked just fine to them. There will be many GFX users who feel the same way about the autofocusing on their cameras.

I'd be happy to discuss this with anyone who wishes. I'm also open to questions and suggestions for testing. In the absence of either, I'm going to move on tho other things.

Jim


« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 06:14:54 pm by Jim Kasson »
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fotagf8

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2017, 05:44:32 pm »

To Jim Kesson:

Even though your approach is more technically oriented than how I like to approach equipment, I have found your posts here and on your blog interesting and they have made me more knowledgeable.  I thank you for the extensive amount of work you put into analyzing the issues.  I suspect that the folks at Fuji do monitor sites like LL, and I hope they address the issues you have raised in the coming firmware update that was announced today.  You have provided the community of GFX users are real service.  BTW, I've been looking at your website, and there is some terrific work there.
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Brad P

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Re: Focus issues of Fuji GFX50
« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2017, 10:21:45 pm »

+1.   Jim thanks.  Heroic work and hope Fuji gives you a ring.
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