Paper suggestions for hand made book / folio

[TommyWeir]

Hi all

Love all the great experience here and suggestions so thought I'd turn to y'all and see if you have a suggestion or two for me.  I'm making a handmade book/folio for a photography project.  It will consist of photographs and text all held in a slip case.  All handmade.  Experimental and following the model used by William Gedney and John Cage in their Iris Garden book. http://www.spacescorners.com/books/Iris-Garden-John-Cage-William-Gedney.html

Trying to identify the right stock, I usually print on a lustre (Permajet Oyster) for work prints and Canson Baryta Photographique for exhibition from my Epson P600.   But for this I'd like to explore matt stocks, double sided.  Given the nature of it I can mix different ones. 

So understanding that this is all highly subjective... but still asking :-)  I'm looking to identify a smooth double sided matt stock that has good feel, but a tight surface, and sturdy to a point.

Thoughts?

[mearussi]

My first thought is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Duo:

https://www.hahnemuehle.com/en/digital-fineart/digital-fineart-collection/matt-fineart/p/Product/show/8/5.html

but if you look around you'll probably find a few more that are similar.

[Mark D Segal]

That would be my suggestion as well. I had a look at it in the context of my review articlesVakue-Added Products and Eight Papers on this website:

[TommyWeir]

Thanks guys, will check that out.  I've printed on H Photo Rag before, and liked the results.  I didn't know it came in a Duo.

[Caslon]

The book in your example doesn't look bound, its just a bunch of folded sheets.
This approach will amplify issues you will run into with matte papers.
If you look at matte paper with a microscope you will see the surface is rough, as it scatters light creating the matte.
These surfaces tend to 'rub off' ink when pressed and moved against each other. binding helps to some degree.
Next try to take some of the paper you are thinking about using and run a fingernail across it, does it leave a mark?
Luster and traditional photographic papers tend to do way better in 'durability'.

If you care about the sequencing of your book you might want to try to sew the pages together into signatures, its really very easy.

Gary

[TommyWeir]

Gary, thanks I will be trying that.  I'm more used to the properties of lustre stock for sure. I think the hand marked, used quality of the loose matte sheets has a certain appeal.  I'm not being as focussed on durability or detail with this one.  I'm also just curious about the folio as opposed to bound approach.   That all said, I will look up sewing techniques, again new to me, and a bound finished item may well be an outcome I choose.

I've found my usual lustre stock comes in a duo format.  I could go there too.

[Larry451]

Moab (legion paper) also has a dual sided paper:  entrada rag natural 300

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/503114-REG/Moab_R08_ERN300851125_Entrada_Rag_Natural_300.html?sts=pi

regards
Larry.

[luxborealis]

Moab (legion paper) also has a dual sided paper:  entrada rag natural 300

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/503114-REG/Moab_R08_ERN300851125_Entrada_Rag_Natural_300.html?sts=pi

regards
Larry.

I can't speak highly enough about the beauty of this paper. It is pretty much all I use for my landscapes and nature work: framed prints, folios and cards. It is lovely to hold no touch, the kind of things folios are made for.

[MHMG]

I can't speak highly enough about the beauty of this paper. It is pretty much all I use for my landscapes and nature work: framed prints, folios and cards. It is lovely to hold no touch, the kind of things folios are made for.

+1. Entrada Rag Natural 300gsm and Entrada Rag Natural 190gsm. There are "bright white" versions as well, but I don't recommend the bright white due to the OBA content. The Natural version is OBA-free. The base sheet is cotton.  Even the 300 gsm roll version is dual-side printable (I make many large prints with back printed metadata and know of no other Wide format roll media with dual-side printable coatings) The dual side coating symmetry on both roll and cut sheet also makes the anti-curl properties of this paper as good as it gets. It is also as or more scuff resistant as any fine art matte inkjet paper I've ever used, and I've tried a lot of them. Plus the price, at least in the USA, is significantly lower than comparable Hahnemuhle or Canson papers. 

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[TommyWeir]

Woah, thanks guys.  New to me, I hadn't heard of Moab at all.  It's available on this side of the Atlantic too, great, thank you.

[davidgp]

You remind me of this workshops that I was interested to try sometime http://www.joewrightphotography.com/book-making-workshops/ , difficult being in U.K. and me working in Spain...

Anyway, if you bind the pages together, maybe go for a paper that it is 190 gsm instead of 300 gsm, if you have many pages, it will fold more easily


http://dgpfotografia.com

[MarkFarber]

I too make handmade books from original inkjet prints on an Epson 3880. After trying virtually every double-sided paper I can find in the US, I've settled on http://moabpaper.com/lasal-photo. I've tried the semigloss but much prefer the matte. It's smoother than entrada; I think it's slightly higher, better contrast, deeper blacks; and it's half the price. It's very close to the hahnemuhle but much cheaper.

[TommyWeir]

Definitely looking at binding as an alternative approach and yes, I'm experimenting with a 220 Photo Rag Duo from Canson - http://www.canson-infinity.com/en/products/rag-photographique-duo 

But waiting to see how much ink I put on it...

[unesco]

You can also try Epson Hot/Cold Press. Officially, they are single sided, but their specific manufacturing process makes them double sided. The reverse side is a little bit rough, but only a little bit compared to the front side. I use this paper (especially Hot Press Natural) for beautiful double sided prints (and blacks are the blackest among all matt cotton rags).

[TommyWeir]

There's certainly something about black and white on matte stock... Quite mysterious.

Impressed with the Canson Rag Photo Duo, there's a lot of ink going down, no show through even with the 220gsm.  It's a warm stock too, which I like, I may work it with the Hannemuehle which is heavier for sure.   

As soon as I can I'm going to check out that Entrada.

[mjcreedon]

All papers suggested good choices.  I prefer the Moab Entrada Natural.  Paper color similar to HPR.  Important to spray
both sides with Moab Desert Varnish.  Two coats should do.  Helps eliminate or at least reduce rub off of darker
inks.  Works well on Baryta Gloss or Luster.
Taught the Digital Book class for 11 years at the San Francisco Art Institute.  Lot's has changed with digital papers
since I moved on in 2012 but I think the Moab Entrada Natural still a fine choice for books.
I've used Moab's Chinle books for a variety of my portfolios.  Limited to 8x9 inches and 12x13 inches is size these books
offer both the Moab Entrada Natural in 190 weight and the Lasal Photo Matte in 235 weight.
Good luck.   

[rdonson]

http://moabpaper.com/chinle-ice-nine/

I've been quite happy with the Chinle Ice Nine portfolio with the Moab Entrada Rag - no problem printing both sides and I really like the pre-drilled paper and the portfolio by Case Envy.  I have used the Moab Desert Varnish when I think it's warranted.

I haven't tried the Lasal Photo Matte but now that it's been mentioned I'll likely give it a try.

[TommyWeir]

The support for the Moab Entrada is near universal.  Very interesting for a paper which was new to me.

MJ I did spray using an 'Artists' Soft Fixative' which is normally used for pastels and the like, it worked remarkably well, I can see how the impact of abrasions and so on are reduced.  I'll try a second coat and keep an eye out for the Moab version, I presume they are all similar.

[mjcreedon]

I think it should be noted that you will need to let the paper dry before spraying.  I usually let it dry for 24 hours
before spraying the one side.  Some may prefer less time. I think it might be best to spray one side before sending the paper through the printer for printing to the other side.  Gives you some protection from roller and ink bleed marks.  Always good to test to see if this applies to your workflow. 
Not all sprays the same.  Some have very pungent odors whereas the Moab Desert Varnish is pretty descent odor wise.  In general it is best to find a spray for inkjet printing papers. Safety masks should be used and unless using a spray booth with proper ventilation spraying outdoors on an appropriate day should be the norm.
I haven't used the Lasal Matte paper lately but you might see a bit better DMax than the Entrada Natural.
That might be because the Lasal is a smooth matte surface. Lasal is whiter but has OBA's.  Both
papers fold well. The Chinle Book paper is already pre-scored. There is a workflow for printing on both sides of a
sheet of paper for book presentation.  Once learned it's time to put ink on paper.
All the best

[Mark D Segal]

One or more of you using non-Hahn book materials should check my "Valued Added Products" review Photo Album etc. on this website and let us know whether the instructions for printing set-up that I provided there are similar or the same for these other products.