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Author Topic: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018  (Read 17521 times)

eronald

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2017, 08:36:23 am »

Fab cost premium depends on process yield - it can be insignificant to several x, my guess next year 54x40 will be sub 1K in price, especially since Sony is now sole supplier and can afford to invest in production equipment and R&D and according to japanese pricing philosophy will price low to avoid new market entries. The next frontiers so to speak are going to be 54x54 and in a few years 6x9 and 4x5. I doubt I will live to see commercial cheap 8x10.

Edmund

Hi,

A 54x40 sensor is several times the cost to make compared to 44x33 and the market is probably much larger for the smaller format, especially now that we have the X1D and the GFX that both seem to sell extremely well.

We can assume that the GFX format (if we call it so) goes to 100 MP at 2019, probably with a hike in price but it will probable be still affordable with enough competition around to keep vendors honest.

So 100 MP coming to affordable MFD is not making things more expensive, rather cheaper. Also, the new lenses probably keep up with 100 MP sensors. Probably not all of them and probably not all over the field.

Best regards
Erik
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 08:39:53 am by eronald »
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cgarnerhome

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2017, 10:04:25 am »

General question – where does this all end?  If Fuji and Sony move to 100mp are enough people really going to follow?  Set aside the question as to who really needs 100mp.  I’m thinking about all the other costs associated costs of moving up in file size.  When I moved up to the XF100 the other costs added up over time.  A new desk top computer, a new laptop, new monitors (why have anything but EIZO;), more storage (at least that’s cheap), new lenses and better software (had to have C1 to get the most out of the XF files).  Once you get obsessed with quality you are always trying to solve the weak link in the chain!  Now my latest problem – my image files when processed often reach 2Gs+.  These large files can’t be stored in LR and Bridge – at least to my knowledge.  I get that many working pros may need the best available but it does come with a cost.  Maybe there enough people like me who can’t help themselves, have enough discretionary income and print large!  Moving from 24mp to 50mp is not that big of a deal but moving to 100mp+ really stresses the weak link not to mention that to really get the quality you seek you will likely be shooting on a tripod.  Did I mention how heavy my pack is now:)

JoeKitchen

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2017, 10:41:50 am »

General question – where does this all end?  If Fuji and Sony move to 100mp are enough people really going to follow?  Set aside the question as to who really needs 100mp.  I’m thinking about all the other costs associated costs of moving up in file size.  When I moved up to the XF100 the other costs added up over time.  A new desk top computer, a new laptop, new monitors (why have anything but EIZO;), more storage (at least that’s cheap), new lenses and better software (had to have C1 to get the most out of the XF files).  Once you get obsessed with quality you are always trying to solve the weak link in the chain!  Now my latest problem – my image files when processed often reach 2Gs+.  These large files can’t be stored in LR and Bridge – at least to my knowledge.  I get that many working pros may need the best available but it does come with a cost.  Maybe there enough people like me who can’t help themselves, have enough discretionary income and print large!  Moving from 24mp to 50mp is not that big of a deal but moving to 100mp+ really stresses the weak link not to mention that to really get the quality you seek you will likely be shooting on a tripod.  Did I mention how heavy my pack is now:)

Up until recently I was working with a P45+, which by today's standards is a low MP count, even compared to 35mm.  Also, the noise in anything above 100 ISO was not great. 

I never heard any complaints from a client.  I sent over images that I considered noisy, waiting for negative responses that never came.  When clients asked the resolution and I said 39, no one ever said we need more. 

I soon figured out clients don't care as much as we do.  I only upgraded to an IQ 260 for the better screen and interface, and connectivity to the XF platform.  Noise is better, but I tell you what, some of the noisiest pictures I brought back from Cuba are the ones people like the most, and I never hear any comments about the noise. 

As far as I am concerned, the only reason I could possibly consider these newer sensors is if lens cast is better on it then on the IQ260. 

The never ending race for more and more resolution makes little sense to me and almost every other pro I talk to about it. 
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2017, 01:32:56 pm »

I agree with you Joe. I make all my money from photography and switched to digital in 1996 with a 1,4 MP Kodak DCS 420. The pixel race was on for us pro's. I think that's over now. Actually I know it's over. No one asks for pixel count anymore. That stopped ages ago. My back is packed away and hasn't seen the light of day this year. Business is pretty good at the moment. Has been all year. I am picking up new clients and have bookings until July when I take a month off to go to Tibet. I'm pretty much paying for that break with a 7 day corporate event job at various safari lodges around South Africa and must produce photo books for the attendees at the end of it. What on earth would I do with my back and Cambo on a shoot like that. No one needs it or wants it. Lots of work like that these days.

It seems mostly that it's what I would call high end enthusiasts chasing MP now. The pro market doesn't really have a big need for it but the enthusiasts are after something else. Good for them. Why not if they can afford it and have the enthusiasm for it.

I love shooting for myself and I'm generally out once or twice a week on personal projects. I have no interest in the the backs anymore. Sorry but I now equate it with work. I have owned six different backs, three different brands mounted on 5 different cameras. It was fun at the time.
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Chris Barrett

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2017, 05:11:58 pm »

Someone posted about this on FB this morning and I said I'd rather have a 60mp 4x5 back.

Word.

ben730

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2017, 06:55:02 pm »

  As far as I am concerned, the only reason I could possibly consider these newer sensors is if lens cast is better on it then on the IQ260. 

The never ending race for more and more resolution makes little sense to me and almost every other pro I talk to about it.

For post production I need big files. I prefer to draw masks at 100% than at 300% magnification.

However, my P40+ is enough for all my work, 60 MP would be the maximum. More would slow down the retouch process.
(But you already know, Joe, I spent my money for a fast race bike. So there is anyway nothing left for a 60 MP back. ;))

Lens cast is a pain. I really like the SK 28 XL and the other Schneiders from 24 to 72, but the lens cast can be very time consuming
and the CF in backlight can destroy the picture.
I also have the Rodie 23 and the 28 HR but they have other weaknesses.
I really wish to have a back without cast.
And by the way, the screens on all the backs are embarrassing,  :(
Regards,
Ben


BJL

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2017, 08:17:36 pm »

Edmund,
    Firstly, I would love to read the basis for your predictions about the costs of large sensors; they always seem vastly more optimistic than what I read elsewhere.

But mostly:
The next frontiers so to speak are going to be 54x54 and in a few years 6x9 and 4x5.
This seems utterly delusional. The medium format camera world has completely consolidated on formats no larger than 56x42mm ("645"), now that the slow, painful demise of the Rollei system is complete. Why would anyone expect new, larger sensors to be developed for formats that no current MF system supports?
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EricWHiss

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2017, 09:00:01 pm »

Someone posted about this on FB this morning and I said I'd rather have a 60mp 4x5 back.

Word.

I would like that as well.   Was just looking at the largesense 8x10 cameras which have reversed LCD display technology and turned them into sensors.  I wonder if the new retina type screens will enable them to increase their resolution? They claim to have a 4x5 version coming...

 http://largesense.com/files/4714/9073/3595/LS911-Side-View.jpg
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 09:05:28 pm by EricWHiss »
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Chris Barrett

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2017, 09:32:55 pm »

I would like that as well.   Was just looking at the largesense 8x10 cameras which have reversed LCD display technology and turned them into sensors.  I wonder if the new retina type screens will enable them to increase their resolution? They claim to have a 4x5 version coming...

 http://largesense.com/files/4714/9073/3595/LS911-Side-View.jpg

They should raise the price 16k and make it an even 10 grand a Megapixel.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2017, 11:59:54 am »

Someone posted about this on FB this morning and I said I'd rather have a 60mp 4x5 back.

Word.

Not sure if I could warrant buying one, but surely would rent it.  It would be nice to put my 4x5 to good use again, as opposed to it being an ornament in my office. 
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eronald

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2017, 05:28:11 pm »

Edmund,
    Firstly, I would love to read the basis for your predictions about the costs of large sensors; they always seem vastly more optimistic than what I read elsewhere.

But mostly:This seems utterly delusional. The medium format camera world has completely consolidated on formats no larger than 56x42mm ("645"), now that the slow, painful demise of the Rollei system is complete. Why would anyone expect new, larger sensors to be developed for formats that no current MF system supports?

A look at some older large format images may answer the why question.
There seem to be some companies doing research on low cost low rez large format sensors.

http://www.isorg.fr

Edmund
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BJL

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2017, 08:06:02 pm »

A look at some older large format images may answer the why question.
There seem to be some companies doing research on low cost low rez large format sensors.

http://www.isorg.fr

It is easy to answer why some forum pundits wish for it; my question instead was about why anyone should expect it to actually happen. That is, can you explain why you expect such sensors to find an economically viable outlet?

That won't be achieved by nostalgic rich hipster nonsense like the $104,000 LargeSense 11"x9" camera, which with only 12MB and 14-bit depth is mathematically doomed to be worse for the combination of detail and fine tonal gradations than some current Sony sensors used behind today's best lenses, no matter what wonderful old LF lens is put in front of it.  (Any potential dynamic range virtue of its huge photosite area is nullified by its 14-bit ADC — at a guess LargeSense does not bother with a higher bit-depth ADC because the DR of the signal arriving from those photosites is not high enough to make it worthwhile.)
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eronald

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2017, 08:17:33 pm »

It is easy to answer why some forum pundits wish for it; my question instead was about why anyone should expect it to actually happen. That is, can you explain why you expect such sensors to find an economically viable outlet?

That won't be achieved by nostalgic rich hipster nonsense like the $104,000 LargeSense 11"x9" camera, which with only 12MB and 14-bit depth is mathematically doomed to be worse for the combination of detail and fine tonal gradations than some current Sony sensors used behind today's best lenses, no matter what wonderful old LF lens is put in front of it.  (Any potential dynamic range virtue of its huge photosite area is nullified by its 14-bit ADC — at a guess LargeSense does not bother with a higher bit-depth ADC because the DR of the signal arriving from those photosites is not high enough to make it worthwhile.)

I think the large sensors in question will be based on cheap tech made for non photo purposes, repurposed. There is a market out there for stuff like no-moving part scanners etc.
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BJL

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2017, 08:22:09 pm »

I think the large sensors in question will be based on cheap tech made for non photo purposes, repurposed. There is a market out there for stuff like no-moving part scanners etc.
Indeed: read on.
Was just looking at the largesense 8x10 cameras which have reversed LCD display technology and turned them into sensors.  I wonder if the new retina type screens will enable them to increase their resolution?
More precisely, they manufacture the CMOS sensor using "large format" steppers designed for making LCD screens. I have read of phone screens pushing 800dpi (beyond any practical value but anyway ...), which would give about 50MP in 10"x8", 12MP in 5"x4", 4MP in 6x7.
They claim to have a 4x5 version coming...
That is a very different idea, and a "long range plan", to be polite. Instead of 12MP in 11"x9", the description is 200MP in 4"x4", so photosites 100 times smaller in area.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 08:39:31 pm by BJL »
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eronald

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2017, 08:54:12 pm »

"ISORG is the pioneering company in Organic and Printed Electronics devices for large-area photodetectors and image sensors with a paradigm shift in the industry.

ISORG converts plastic and glass surfaces into smart surfaces.

ISORG offers a new generation of high performance imagers with 3D product integration capability recognizing any shapes and form factors."

Indeed: read on.More precisely, they manufacture the CMOS sensor using "large format" steppers designed for making LCD screens. I have read of phone screens pushing 800dpi (beyond any practical value but anyway ...), which would give about 50MP in 10"x8", 12MP in 5"x4", 4MP in 6x7.That is a very different idea, and a "long range plan", to be polite. Instead of 12MP in 11"x9", the description is 200MP in 4"x4", so photosites 100 times smaller in area.
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BJL

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #55 on: April 06, 2017, 10:03:26 pm »

"ISORG is the pioneering company in Organic and Printed Electronics devices for large-area photodetectors and image sensors with a paradigm shift in the industry.

ISORG converts plastic and glass surfaces into smart surfaces.

ISORG offers a new generation of high performance imagers with 3D product integration capability recognizing any shapes and form factors."
Lots of marketing hype, but what does ISORG tell us about key specs like the resolution and dynamic range that these jumbo sensors are capable of? The only spec I found is 500dpi for a fingerprint sensor (something with very low DR needs), which is in line with what can be made with steppers designed for LCD fab and such. That makes sense, since ISORG is surely using fab equipment from the familiar suppliers (AMSL, Nikon Precision, Canon, etc.), not making its own, and 500dpi is roughly in line with the resolutions of phone screens and such, though a bit less than my optimistic 800dpi in an earlier post.

That 500dpi converts to 1.25MP in 6x7 [56x70mm] format for example, so I ask again
why we should expect this technology to bring us usable 6x7 sensors for medium format cameras?

Even if the 22MP of early DMF sensors is enough in a 6x7 format camera, that needs about 2000ppi; I do not see any display screens needing anywhere close to much resolution, so why would fab equipment for making display screens go that fine?
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eronald

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #56 on: April 07, 2017, 06:46:55 pm »

4x5 and 8x10 revival?

Edmund


Lots of marketing hype, but what does ISORG tell us about key specs like the resolution and dynamic range that these jumbo sensors are capable of? The only spec I found is 500dpi for a fingerprint sensor (something with very low DR needs), which is in line with what can be made with steppers designed for LCD fab and such. That makes sense, since ISORG is surely using fab equipment from the familiar suppliers (AMSL, Nikon Precision, Canon, etc.), not making its own, and 500dpi is roughly in line with the resolutions of phone screens and such, though a bit less than my optimistic 800dpi in an earlier post.

That 500dpi converts to 1.25MP in 6x7 [56x70mm] format for example, so I ask again
why we should expect this technology to bring us usable 6x7 sensors for medium format cameras?

Even if the 22MP of early DMF sensors is enough in a 6x7 format camera, that needs about 2000ppi; I do not see any display screens needing anywhere close to much resolution, so why would fab equipment for making display screens go that fine?
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #57 on: April 07, 2017, 08:22:55 pm »

Not sure if I could warrant buying one, but surely would rent it.  It would be nice to put my 4x5 to good use again, as opposed to it being an ornament in my office.

I sold all my film cameras a decade ago but I wish I had saved a few, like a 500c/m and a view camera.  So sad.

My equipment shelf in 2004...
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 08:29:00 pm by Craig Lamson »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2017, 08:30:28 pm »

Hi,

The nice thing with "Blads" is that used "Blads" are abundant and cheap, mostly. Superachromats and 40/4 IF are still pricey, tough.

Best regards
Erik

I sold all my film cameras a decade ago btu I wish I had saved a few, like a 500c/m and a view camera.  So sad.

My equipment shelf in 2004...
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BJL

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2017, 08:38:55 pm »

4x5 and 8x10 revival?
I was responding initially to your talk of reviving 6x6 and 6x7, where we now seem agreed that these sensors based on lower-cost "LCD fab" are not very appealing.  Move that 500dpi up to 5"x4" and you get 2500x2000 = 5MP.  Do you see much appeal in that?
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