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Author Topic: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018  (Read 17520 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2017, 09:44:46 am »

Hi,

The corner smearing comes from the cover glass. Light passes trough the outlet pupil and each pixel is essentially illuminated by the entire outlet pupil. So if the cone of light coming from at a large set of angles it will shifted when passing trough the glass in many different ways, so this smear the image and do it differently in different directions.

That is the reason Leica tries to keep the cover glass thin. Ideally, the cover glass should be a part of the optical calculation. It is possible to replace the cover glass on the A7xx sensors with a thinner one, but that would induce errors in lenses that are calculated for the 2.5 mm (or so) cover glass the A7xx usually has.

Best regards
Erik

With respect to colour caste, when I bought the A7R2 (I was using the A7R), I tested as many wide RF lenses I could get my hands on at the time, and documented info from a few other posts.  Not one of them showed any corner colour caste.  Unfortunately as we all know the BSI sensor did not improve the corner smearing from the lenses.  I checked the following lenses;
12 and 15mm VC (version 1), I also checked the 15mm VC III which is optically excellent in the corners as it was redesigned, 18mm ZM, 24mm Leica Elmar, 28/1.9 VC, 28/2 VC, 35/2 Canon LTM
and got info from others from these lenses;
18mm Leica SEM, 28/2.8 Leica Asph
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mcbroomf

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2017, 10:18:51 am »

Hi,

The corner smearing comes from the cover glass. Light passes trough the outlet pupil and each pixel is essentially illuminated by the entire outlet pupil. So if the cone of light coming from at a large set of angles it will shifted when passing trough the glass in many different ways, so this smear the image and do it differently in different directions.

That is the reason Leica tries to keep the cover glass thin. Ideally, the cover glass should be a part of the optical calculation. It is possible to replace the cover glass on the A7xx sensors with a thinner one, but that would induce errors in lenses that are calculated for the 2.5 mm (or so) cover glass the A7xx usually has.

Best regards
Erik

Yes, that's why the BSI had no effect on the smearing.  Kolari offer this service and are now testing out a new version that looks very promising but as you say it will likely effect very good native WA lenses like the 21mm Loxia or 25mm Batis for example.  The other option is to add an element to the front of the lens to compensate.  Not as good as a lens design for the coverglass but some people are getting good results.
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1453834
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eronald

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2017, 08:46:05 pm »

Ah, I see.  Nyquist stays the same at 0.5 cycles/pixel in both cases but in the second case the higher frequencies are less attenuated because of the smaller pixel aperture.  The result for the lower fill factor pixel is therefore better resolution at MTF50 but also more energy in the higher frequencies above Nyquist - therefore more aliasing potential.  That appears to be a simulation of just pixel aperture and as such an extreme example (in reality lens blur, diffraction etc. would make the effect much less obvious) but I see what you mean now.

Jack

Now we understand why the 22mp Kodak backs had a rep for sharpness AND aliasing
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landscapephoto

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2017, 01:56:09 am »

Ah, I see.  Nyquist stays the same at 0.5 cycles/pixel in both cases but in the second case the higher frequencies are less attenuated because of the smaller pixel aperture.  The result for the lower fill factor pixel is therefore better resolution at MTF50 but also more energy in the higher frequencies above Nyquist - therefore more aliasing potential.  That appears to be a simulation of just pixel aperture and as such an extreme example (in reality lens blur, diffraction etc. would make the effect much less obvious) but I see what you mean now.

Jack

The aliasing that photographers note is due to the Bayer filter. It is quite noticeable, because color stripes are obvious to us humans.

The aliasing that this study is talking about is different and would appear on a monochrome sensor. Its artefacts are rarely noted by photographers.

Please note that a pixel fill of more than 100% is also possible (on multishot shifting sensors).
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2017, 09:27:48 am »

Now we understand why the 22mp Kodak backs had a rep for sharpness AND aliasing

Also those backs were common during the era of Capture One 3 and other early raw processing software. In the decade+ since those days Capture One has evolved tremendously. The same raw files that showed ghastly aliasing now often show little or no aliasing.

In so many discussions, tests, research papers etc the element of raw processing is simply forgotten. That's a shame since raw processing algorithms is a huge component of image quality and not all raw processors produce equal quality.

torger

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2017, 09:49:41 am »

I think we came to the conclusion that the fill factor effect does have an effect on aliasing, but it's a small one, maybe even negligible in practical photography. The advantage manufacturers mention with large fill factor is better sensitivity, that is better ISO.

If Sony would make a light-shielded version of their sensors to meet the need of tech-style wide angle designs, the disadvantages would be 1) probably less megapixels (think 60MP fullframe), 2) somewhat less dynamic range, 3) lower sensitivity (that is worse ISO performance).

Considering the base performance of the current sensor there certainly is plenty of margin to make such a thing. However, it's a great risk to take even a small step down in those performance numbers, it's not what consumers want to see, especially when the only gain is being able to use niche optics that doesn't exactly look like they have their future in front of them. So it won't happen.

The only chance for these already-or-soon-to-be legacy wide lenses is that there is some major technology shift that gives wide angular response for free so it's just there without having to design for it, and BSI in its current form is not it, unfortunately.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 09:53:49 am by torger »
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TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2017, 02:28:17 pm »

I'm surprised we haven't yet seen spectacular shift lenses in the medium format world as we are moving away from tech cam friendly sensors.  Leica promised a wide PC lens a while back and it never materialized for the S system. Hasselblad has the HTS...but crop factor takes away the true wide angle bit.  Especially for cameras like the GXF or even the Pentax.  It would only make sense to have an excellent shift lens.  I would think they would be decent sellers as well.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2017, 05:06:22 pm »

The only chance for these already-or-soon-to-be legacy wide lenses is that there is some major technology shift that gives wide angular response for free so it's just there without having to design for it, and BSI in its current form is not it, unfortunately.

Rodenstock has been asleep at the wheel for years it seems, but I would think that if the tech camera lens business still means something for them they may be somehow in the prcess of designing better wides able to limit downsides with the CMOS sensors?

Zeiss, Sigma, Nikon, Fuji,... have all been demonstrating the tremendous progress made in lenses design these past 3-4 years, to the extend that tech camera lenses are falling behind although they are much more costly and have huge intrinsic architecture advantages, I would hope that the engineers at Rodenstock have some pride left.

Cheers,
Bernard

voidshatter

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2017, 06:41:04 pm »

The only chance for these already-or-soon-to-be legacy wide lenses is that there is some major technology shift that gives wide angular response for free so it's just there without having to design for it, and BSI in its current form is not it, unfortunately.

I was told by an engineer in Sony's sensor department that the new 150MP BSI sensor (IMX411) will likely have less color cast and less heat dissipation than the existing 100MP FSI sensor (IMX211) does, despite the 50% increased pixel count.

Rodenstock has been asleep at the wheel for years it seems, but I would think that if the tech camera lens business still means something for them they may be somehow in the prcess of designing better wides able to limit downsides with the CMOS sensors?

Zeiss, Sigma, Nikon, Fuji,... have all been demonstrating the tremendous progress made in lenses design these past 3-4 years, to the extend that tech camera lenses are falling behind although they are much more costly and have huge intrinsic architecture advantages, I would hope that the engineers at Rodenstock have some pride left.

I believe the main challenge is the increasing weight which is not good for Copal 0 shutters. The 32HR is already known to be delicate enough. Maybe they should just drop Copal 0 shutters and only install aperture control, for upcoming digital backs where electronic shutter is standard. They must have some very close relationship with Sony or whoever is the next sensor giant to collaborate the design, otherwise the revenue may not justify the cost of new designs.
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BJL

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2017, 06:44:00 pm »

Rodenstock has been asleep at the wheel for years . . .
Zeiss, Sigma, Nikon, Fuji, have all been demonstrating the tremendous progress made in lenses design these past 3-4 years . . .
tech camera lenses are falling behind although they are much more costly and have huge intrinsic architecture advantages
This epitomizes the challenges for formats larger than 36x24mm: the intrinsic advantages of a larger format are battling the far greater resources and faster technological progress driven by the far higher sales volume and revenues for the smaller formats of the "mainstream" DSLR system from Canon, Nikon and Sony. More so when lenses and some other technology also get shared with even smaller formats like "APS-C",  further increasing the revenue potential of an investment in improved designs. In addition to those lens comments, note that the latest innovations in Sony sensors have arrived in 36x24mm format but not yet in the larger formats.  It is not as bad though as when the "plus-sized formats" were stuck with CCDs!

This is why I wonder if the inherent performance advantage of the modest size advantage of 44x33mm over 36x24mm (about "half to one a stop") is enough.  But at worst, if 44x33 fails then I expect the larger formats like 54x40 to offer a clear IQ advantage over 36x24 and so a market niche will persist for at least one plus-sized format.
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narikin

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2017, 07:10:54 pm »

Rodenstock has been asleep at the wheel for years it seems, but I would think that if the tech camera lens business still means something for them they may be somehow in the prcess of designing better wides able to limit downsides with the CMOS sensors?

Disagree. The best lenses in MF digital right now are Rodenstock ones.

Nearly everybody agrees the 90mm HRSW is the finest MF lens out there, bar none. Large image circle (100mm, good for a 4 way stitch) and sharp beyond anything you have seen in MF. I hear good things about the latest design wide ones, though they are not of interest to me.

Remember production numbers for MF are very low, and if an Otus for FF Canon/Nikon is $4500, then for the reduced production quantity for MF - larger element size, smaller numbers and you're talking about a $20,000 lens...  and for what? - the 90mm is astonishingly good, even the old HR series (60f4, 100f4, 35f4, etc) are still excellent, (but no movements).

I'd like to see Zeiss come back into MF too, but it's simply not going to happen as production numbers are too low. The only hope is that the new Fuji takes off, and others (Sony, Phase) come into the MF mirrorless, and dramatically increase the market place for such lenses.



« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 07:14:15 pm by narikin »
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eronald

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2017, 08:06:27 pm »

Excuse the dumb question, but what happens if one uses eg the Canon TSE wides on MF? Is the shift ability negligible?

Edmund

Disagree. The best lenses in MF digital right now are Rodenstock ones.

Nearly everybody agrees the 90mm HRSW is the finest MF lens out there, bar none. Large image circle (100mm, good for a 4 way stitch) and sharp beyond anything you have seen in MF. I hear good things about the latest design wide ones, though they are not of interest to me.

Remember production numbers for MF are very low, and if an Otus for FF Canon/Nikon is $4500, then for the reduced production quantity for MF - larger element size, smaller numbers and you're talking about a $20,000 lens...  and for what? - the 90mm is astonishingly good, even the old HR series (60f4, 100f4, 35f4, etc) are still excellent, (but no movements).

I'd like to see Zeiss come back into MF too, but it's simply not going to happen as production numbers are too low. The only hope is that the new Fuji takes off, and others (Sony, Phase) come into the MF mirrorless, and dramatically increase the market place for such lenses.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2017, 09:17:22 pm »


I believe the main challenge is the increasing weight which is not good for Copal 0 shutters. The 32HR is already known to be delicate enough.


This always baffled me that they decided to design the lens for a Copal 0.  A Copal 1 is only slightly larger (could probably fit on most MF lens boards) and the max speed is 1/400 instead of 1/500.  For all intents and purposes, using the stronger Copal 1 would have been the better decision given the weight of the lens. 
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BJL

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Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2017, 08:22:36 pm »

Official Sony document on this: http://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/news/detail/170301.pdf

"Type 3.6" is 44x33mm; "Type 4.2" is 54x40mm.  (Don't ask!)

P. S. (1) Sorry for the repeat of an earlier link. (2) Note that the advertised applications do not include any reference to medium format cameras, but are instead the same ones that Kodak and Dalsa primarily made their big CCD's for: "Aerial Photography", "Large Area Surveillance", "Cultural Heritage (meaning extremely recordings of paintings for conservation work and such), and "Inspection" (machine vision on production lines?).  It seems that camera formats larger than 36x24mm continue to rely on sharing technology with other "technical" usages. (Except the Leica S).  This is probably good news: it somewhat protects DMF against the worst economy-of-scale problems in its competition against 36x24mm.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 10:24:51 pm by BJL »
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BJL

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2017, 10:28:56 pm »

It seems to me not very economical to make two MF format sensors.
It is already a small market.
So these MF sensors will cost even more than needed.
Why not just stick to one 54 x 40 format- a clearly different format and quality than FF.
As the Sony brochure http://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/news/detail/170301.pdf indicates, the main markets are other "technical uses" like surveillance and machine vision. The size difference probably translates into a sufficiently large cost difference that some customers will need the higher IQ while others will need the less expensive option.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2017, 12:04:35 am »

They list two monochrome sensors ... can't any sensor be monochrome if you leave off the filter array?  Just curious what target market this would be for.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2017, 01:39:42 am »

Hi,

Some report very good results and I have seen a few awful results.

There is a lot of IQ-variation in the TSE-line. I guess it depends on getting a very good sample and what expectations are made on image corners. Many images don't have a great amount pf detail in the extreme corners.

Best regards
Erik

Excuse the dumb question, but what happens if one uses eg the Canon TSE wides on MF? Is the shift ability negligible?

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2017, 01:47:35 am »

Hi,

A 54x40 sensor is several times the cost to make compared to 44x33 and the market is probably much larger for the smaller format, especially now that we have the X1D and the GFX that both seem to sell extremely well.

We can assume that the GFX format (if we call it so) goes to 100 MP at 2019, probably with a hike in price but it will probable be still affordable with enough competition around to keep vendors honest.

So 100 MP coming to affordable MFD is not making things more expensive, rather cheaper. Also, the new lenses probably keep up with 100 MP sensors. Probably not all of them and probably not all over the field.

Best regards
Erik


It seems to me not very economical to make two MF format sensors.
It is already a small market.
So these MF sensors will cost even more than needed.
Why not just stick to one 54 x 40 format- a clearly different format and quality than FF.
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elundqvist_photo

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2017, 03:21:26 am »

I'm guessing they would have a GFX50S and a GFX100S as I don't think they want to risk their status as the cheapest MF camera.

Hi,

A 54x40 sensor is several times the cost to make compared to 44x33 and the market is probably much larger for the smaller format, especially now that we have the X1D and the GFX that both seem to sell extremely well.

We can assume that the GFX format (if we call it so) goes to 100 MP at 2019, probably with a hike in price but it will probable be still affordable with enough competition around to keep vendors honest.

So 100 MP coming to affordable MFD is not making things more expensive, rather cheaper. Also, the new lenses probably keep up with 100 MP sensors. Probably not all of them and probably not all over the field.

Best regards
Erik
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BJL

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2017, 07:17:31 am »

They list two monochrome sensors ... can't any sensor be monochrome if you leave off the filter array?  Just curious what target market this would be for.
See my post above: the target markets include things like surveillance and machine vision (and perhaps also astronomy) where there is significant demand for the greater sensitivity of a monochrome sensor, and the option to detect UV and IR with the use of suitable filters.
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