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Author Topic: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018  (Read 17549 times)

voidshatter

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First a quick reminder - in some parts of the world it's already April 1st, so in the next 24 hours take anything you read online with a grain of salt.

There is a video interview on YouTube with Sony representatives that talks about new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors that are supposed to be introduced in 2018

Didn't watch the video carefully and seriously, but there are several sensor part numbers listed:

IMX161: we already know that this is the 44x33 50MP one in the IQ250
IMX211: likely to be the 54x40 100MP one in the IQ3100
IMX461: likely to be a 44x33 100MP BSI?
IMX411: likely to be a 54x40 150MP BSI?

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beano_z

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Nice, going to have to start saving up again!!
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JoeKitchen

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Didn't watch the video carefully and seriously, but there are several sensor part numbers listed:

IMX161: we already know that this is the 44x33 50MP one in the IQ250
IMX211: likely to be the 54x40 100MP one in the IQ3100
IMX461: likely to be a 44x33 100MP BSI?
IMX411: likely to be a 54x40 150MP BSI?

The real question is, with a Sony BSI sensor work better on a tech camera with wide angles? 
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razrblck

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Chris Barret might know, he works with a Sony a7RII (BSI 42MP sensor) and uses movements a lot!
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torger

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The real question is, with a Sony BSI sensor work better on a tech camera with wide angles?

It's not the reason they make it BSI. Kodak had tech wides in the equation, but I don't think it's been there since. The mirrorless cameras has similar needs, but the wide aperture lenses in those systems still don't pose the same challanges as tech lenses. As increasing wide angle response means sacrificing some other property (like megapixel count and sensitivity) it's unlikely that we'll see sensors that have more wide angle response than the sensor designer think they need.

A small hardware improvement with improved post-processing cleanup algorithms could make a lots of difference though. Due to the overall high performance of the modern sensor you can beat up the file pretty bad with incompatible optics and still get a nice result in the end.

The greatest enemy with current technology regarding wide angle response is the ever-increasing pixel count though, as it means smaller pixel pitch which means higher stack height/pixel pitch ratio, which means worse angular response. So even if BSI improves it, the advantage can be canceled out with smaller size pixels. The a7RII BSI sensor did much, but it didn't really deliver on angular response.

A full-frame 60MP BSI CMOS sensor with current technology would probably perform rather well, but I don't see that we'll see any "low" MP count MF sensors coming out, they must provide a large MP jump from 135 to get the sales.

Anyway we need to test new sensors, and hope Capture One engineers do magic with their LCC algorithms, then it can turn out quite well even if the sensor designers never considered tech lenses. I think tech cams are legacy now, they just don't know it yet.
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ErikKaffehr

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Hi,

The short answer is no. The long answer is, well, it is longer…

Chris Barret uses the A7rII with retrofocus lenses, like Hasselblad V and Canon TSE. So Chris Barret's experience tells no story about BSI sensors with symmetrical lenses.

But, the Fuji GFX does not use gapless microlenses. It may be that they have added some shielding between pixels. That would increase aliasing and reduce quantum efficiency, but it may allow for larger beam angles while reducing cross talk. That would allow for more compact lens designs and a bit more shift.

Sensor design is a compromise and sensor designs are about the most difficult analogue designs. A lot of development work going into designing a single pixel… Consider this: A CMOS sensor takes about three months to make… you start making the sensor at Christmas and it is good for delivery at Easter…

Best regards
Erik


The real question is, with a Sony BSI sensor work better on a tech camera with wide angles?
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Erik Kaffehr
 

voidshatter

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I think tech cams are legacy now, they just don't know it yet.

I agree with this. Schneider has already decided to pull out of this business, and I think they are clever.

Leica survived the obsoleteness of rangefinder by luxury marketing, while Nikon survived the obsoleteness of rangefinder by DSLR. Maybe Nikon will survive the obsoleteness of DSLR by mirrorless at a later time, but it remains to be seen whether Alpa will survive the obsoleteness of techcam by luxury marketing.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 11:35:59 am by voidshatter »
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E.J. Peiker

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My wallet is already in pre-emptive shock over the IQ3150... :o
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kers

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It seems to me not very economical to make two MF format sensors.
It is already a small market.
So these MF sensors will cost even more than needed.
Why not just stick to one 54 x 40 format- a clearly different format and quality than FF.
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Pieter Kers
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torger

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It seems to me not very economical to make two MF format sensors.
It is already a small market.
So these MF sensors will cost even more than needed.
Why not just stick to one 54 x 40 format- a clearly different format and quality than FF.

If it would be one format, it would be 44x33. It's much cheaper to manufacture than 54x40 thanks to the smaller area, a much larger market and manufacturers believe in it. Fuji could have made a 54x40 mirrorless if they had wanted, but why make a camera that so few can afford, when you can sell lots more of a more affordable camera. I think medium format is no longer a specialist niche, with the recent 44x33 cameras it's almost like a real mass market product.

In the longer term I think 44x33 can get a big chunk off the current high res 135 segment. High res 135 with optics is already expensive, and the step up to a little bit better is not too large. Increased volume can drive down costs further. It looks good. Medium format is becoming mainstream.

I think that the talk about that the larger format gives a distinctive look tied to the size itself has almost disappeared. It's about as relevant as the CMOS vs CCD wars, that is almost noone cares any longer. It's just about how many sharp pixels you get, and sure the 54x40 paired with great optics is a significant step up, but well, while the 44x33 systems are cheap enough to present a reasonable attractive price/performance equation, the 54x40 systems are for those where that equation is not important, so we should be thankful that Sony cares to make them, as I'm not sure it makes much business sense for such a large corporation.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2017, 10:35:47 pm »

One can dream!
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2017, 12:00:57 am »

it appears those that know more than I do don't believe BSI wouldn't help much with tech lenses and lens cast, but what about cross talk? LCC's perform pretty well with lens cast, not as effective trying to resolve cross talk problems. Is there still a "well" with sides so light can leak through to neighboring pixels?
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landscapephoto

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2017, 03:40:16 am »

The same info is official from Sony semiconductors:

http://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/news/detail/170301.pdf
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torger

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2017, 04:06:38 am »

it appears those that know more than I do don't believe BSI wouldn't help much with tech lenses and lens cast, but what about cross talk? LCC's perform pretty well with lens cast, not as effective trying to resolve cross talk problems. Is there still a "well" with sides so light can leak through to neighboring pixels?

It's not a well in the same sense, but there's quite a buildup of the color filter and micro lens. See this image:



the slanted light rays shown in the image are at a much higher angle (closer to perpendicular) than a tech lens presents at the edges. I don't have the exact numbers, but I think it can be as low as 30 degrees.

If light comes in at such a low angle there can be crosstalk already in the microlens/color filter layer. The solution to the problem is to make the pixels larger (so the color filter/microlens becomes relatively thinner) and reduce the aperture of the photo diode (=add light shields), think of laying a thin opaque layer on top of the pixels (but below the color filter) and making a small hole for each pixel. Kodak did that, and removed the microlens completely (which has the problem that it may do more harm than good at low angles). This does not come without cost though.

Smaller aperture of the pixel reduces quantum efficiency, it's basically the same thing as taking a 135 format sensor and spreading out the pixels and not register the light in-between, and as there's gaps between pixels it produces more aliasing. I don't think people would complain about aliasing, somehow medium format users never do, but the reduced quantum efficiency would show up as reduced dynamic range (and worse ISO performance), and that people would notice in their crazy shadow push tests.

With BSI technology the disadvantages could be made much smaller than it was for the Kodak sensors though, so it would still perform very well. I don't think it's necessary to remove the micro lenses for example, but you would probably make a less aggressive design, and the light shield could be narrower thanks to BSI.

Sony won't design a sensor for legacy lenses though. In theory new mirrorless systems would gain from using symmetrical wides as they can be light and compact and at the same time very high performance (and color cast could be corrected in firmware in those systems), but the problem is that these lenses also by necessity have huge vignetting and small aperture, which is okay for technical type of photography, but not for the all-around photography consumers would expect to get from a modern camera.

Angular response is not something that just happens to become what it becomes, it's designed to meet a specific target. To meet that target you need to compromise other performance aspects. When BSI allows you to get more angular response "for free", the likely approach is to increase other aspects of sensor performance, rather than increasing angular response, unless there is a strong demand to do so. Tech cam lens manufactures are however far better at discontinuing stuff than putting pressure on sensor manufacturers, so I don't think it looks very good.
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Jack Hogan

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Aliasing and Pixel Aperture
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2017, 04:45:25 am »

Smaller aperture of the pixel reduces quantum efficiency, it's basically the same thing as taking a 135 format sensor and spreading out the pixels and not register the light in-between, and as there's gaps between pixels it produces more aliasing.

Very interesting, thank you Torger.  I can see why a smaller pixel aperture could reduce effective QE hence SNR but I am curious about the second part of the comment above:

why would a smaller aperture with pixels at the same pitch result in more aliasing?  Pitch stays the same therefore so should Nyquist.

In addition the low pass action provided by the smaller aperture is reduced so higher frequencies are less attenuated - all good news for the frequency domain, no?

Jack
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torger

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Re: Aliasing and Pixel Aperture
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2017, 06:19:23 am »

Very interesting, thank you Torger.  I can see why a smaller pixel aperture could reduce effective QE hence SNR but I am curious about the second part of the comment above:

why would a smaller aperture with pixels at the same pitch result in more aliasing?  Pitch stays the same therefore so should Nyquist.

In addition the low pass action provided by the smaller aperture is reduced so higher frequencies are less attenuated - all good news for the frequency domain, no?

Jack

The reason is that there are gaps between pixels that are not recorded. When looking at the basic math around aliasing it's assumed that there are no gaps, which is the "normal" way to sample things like audio etc. The thing here is that we have <sample> <gap> <sample> <gap> <sample>, and where the gap is there could be a different color, so we get a different kind of aliasing. With gapless pixels that color would be averaged in with the rest so you get less aliasing, but possibly also less "crispy" image as it's more averaged, so I would not be surprised if many users would consider the effect to be an advantage.
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mcbroomf

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2017, 06:52:35 am »

With respect to colour caste, when I bought the A7R2 (I was using the A7R), I tested as many wide RF lenses I could get my hands on at the time, and documented info from a few other posts.  Not one of them showed any corner colour caste.  Unfortunately as we all know the BSI sensor did not improve the corner smearing from the lenses.  I checked the following lenses;
12 and 15mm VC (version 1), I also checked the 15mm VC III which is optically excellent in the corners as it was redesigned, 18mm ZM, 24mm Leica Elmar, 28/1.9 VC, 28/2 VC, 35/2 Canon LTM
and got info from others from these lenses;
18mm Leica SEM, 28/2.8 Leica Asph
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Jack Hogan

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Re: Aliasing and Pixel Aperture
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2017, 07:29:56 am »

The reason is that there are gaps between pixels that are not recorded. When looking at the basic math around aliasing it's assumed that there are no gaps, which is the "normal" way to sample things like audio etc. The thing here is that we have <sample> <gap> <sample> <gap> <sample>, and where the gap is there could be a different color, so we get a different kind of aliasing. With gapless pixels that color would be averaged in with the rest so you get less aliasing, but possibly also less "crispy" image as it's more averaged, so I would not be surprised if many users would consider the effect to be an advantage.

Hi Torger,

1) <sample> <gap> <sample> <gap> <sample>

is called sparse sampling and applies for instance to any situation when fill factor is not 100% (or to the single channel of a Bayer sensor).  It should not affect Nyquist as long as sampling (pixel) pitch is held constant.  In other words

2) <----sample----> <----sample-----> <----sam....

has the same sampling pitch/frequency and aliasing potential as 1).  In fact, because 1)  integrates over a smaller area it is able to retain more higher frequencies.  Initially counterintuitive until one looks at the math, huh?  Some background here.

Jack

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torger

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Re: Aliasing and Pixel Aperture
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2017, 08:21:28 am »

Hi Torger,

1) <sample> <gap> <sample> <gap> <sample>

is called sparse sampling and applies for instance to any situation when fill factor is not 100% (or to the single channel of a Bayer sensor).  It should not affect Nyquist as long as sampling (pixel) pitch is held constant.  In other words

2) <----sample----> <----sample-----> <----sam....

has the same sampling pitch/frequency and aliasing potential as 1).  In fact, because 1)  integrates over a smaller area it is able to retain more higher frequencies.  Initially counterintuitive until one looks at the math, huh?  Some background here.

Jack

You know the math better than me. Anyway here's an illutstrative example from this page:
https://recordingsofnature.wordpress.com/2014/08/26/effect-of-pixel-fill-factor-on-aliasing-and-moire/

100% fill factor (reference image)



50% fill factor


which looks more crisp but also jaggied (aliased).

The difference is not very large though, so probably we shouldn't worry that much about that aspect. The loss of sensitivity is a bigger issue that people will actually notice in their tests. I doubt that it matters much in real-world photography though because DR is already very good, but real-world photography is not what sells cameras ;-)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 08:24:40 am by torger »
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Jack Hogan

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Re: Sony to announce new 100MP and 150MP medium format BSI sensors in 2018
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2017, 09:05:29 am »

Ah, I see.  Nyquist stays the same at 0.5 cycles/pixel in both cases but in the second case the higher frequencies are less attenuated because of the smaller pixel aperture.  The result for the lower fill factor pixel is therefore better resolution at MTF50 but also more energy in the higher frequencies above Nyquist - therefore more aliasing potential.  That appears to be a simulation of just pixel aperture and as such an extreme example (in reality lens blur, diffraction etc. would make the effect much less obvious) but I see what you mean now.

Jack
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