Red River Papers - will they last?

[Deardorff]

Have been printing cards on Red River papers. Pre-scored work very well in the Epson and Canon printers both.

On the larger sizes. Do they last? Do they last with inks from the Canon pro and Epson P800 inks?

Do the papers yellow over time?

I have a few older boxes of paper in various brands, unopened and unused til now. On opening I found yellowing around the edges. Have found yellowing/discoloring around the edges into 3-4 inches on some papers. This is not good and tells me finished prints not framed well will start yellowing after a bit.

What papers on the market now will stand the test of time without yellowing or other problems?

[Mark D Segal]

I haven't tested or used those papers, but in general yellowing over time may indicate that the papers contain OBAs (optical brightening agents) which fade over time and reveal the true underlying colour of the paper.

[rdonson]

Mark, help me understand how OBAs fading will turn a paper yellow.  Don't OBAs only fluoresce under UV light sources?  If the OBAs go away I can understand if they don't seem as white but I don't see how that turns a previously white paper yellow.  I've got prints on OBA papers from a number of sources that are over 10 years old and not stored archivally and I see NO yellowing.  To me yellowing is more likely to be an environmental issue than OBAs fading.  Then again, perhaps we're not all using "yellowing" in the same sense or meaning.

[Mark D Segal]

Mark, help me understand how OBAs fading will turn a paper yellow.  Don't OBAs only fluoresce under UV light sources?  If the OBAs go away I can understand if they don't seem as white but I don't see how that turns a previously white paper yellow.  I've got prints on OBA papers from a number of sources that are over 10 years old and not stored archivally and I see NO yellowing.  To me yellowing is more likely to be an environmental issue than OBAs fading.  Then again, perhaps we're not all using "yellowing" in the same sense or meaning.

OBA fading does not turn paper yellow. All it does is reveal the underlying paper colour, which would be usually more yellow than what we see under the influence of OBAs. If the paper were yellowing more than that, this is another, and likely more serious issue of other chemical components in the paper base causing it.

[Ernst Dinkla]

OBA fading does not turn paper yellow. All it does is reveal the underlying paper colour, which would be usually more yellow than what we see under the influence of OBAs. If the paper were yellowing more than that, this is another, and likely more serious issue of other chemical components in the paper base causing it.

There are OBAs that discolor when degrading and add color to the paper base itself. It is too simple to state that OBAs while loosing the fluorescent effect in time are or become transparent and just reveal the paper base then. Of course the paper base can yellow in time too. EEF of Epson is a paper that goes beyond the natural paper white in time.

OBAs as used in papers are several dye types that degrade when exposed to UV, to light, ozone, oxygen and possibly more gases. Not to mention this effect; http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/portfolio/light-induced-media-discoloration-in-archival-pigment-and-other-fine-art-prints/

Red River; maybe 5 years ago I saw that some samples of Red River Aurora White got yellow edges. So did the Moab Entrada Rag Bright samples I had stored in the same multi binder. Tecco PFR 200 Duo Fine Art Rag samples that I received much later showed similar shifts. They all are cotton based, more or less dual sides printable and show the same spectral plots in SpectrumViz. I separated them from one another and kept them in the same binder, checking them again the Moab shows the worst discoloring now.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[rdonson]

Thanks, Mark and Ernst.

[deanwork]

I used to use the Red River Matte and Polar matt for designers that requested it. All of those prints have horribly degraded, usually within a couple of years due to the excessive use of poorly made oba. The old Epson "archival :-) matte" papers have yellowed and turned dark in the paper base as well, but the Red River papers were the absolute worst media I've ever used. They probably do market a few papers that are better, but all the ones I printed on were junk, real junk.

john

[Mark D Segal]

Perhaps much depends on the initial quality of the media and how the it is stored and viewed after printing. I started to take an interest in digital imaging 17 years ago when Epson introduced the 2000P printer. I retained those early prints and go back to them periodically just to see how they are holding up. In those days I used Epson Enhanced Matte paper, full of OBAs. They are stored in bound volumes, so they get very little light except when viewed, which is not often. They are exposed to light around the top and front edges of the paper. As I open these books I see that the printed side is much brighter than the paper base from the previous sheet facing it (bound book remember). There is ever so slight a sign of yellowing at those exposed edges, but I really need to look for it. So in these conditions the OBA content has held-up very well - so far. I've had other Epson Enhanced Matte prints on the fridge door for a number of years, and they have experienced some OBA degradation, but rather evenly and still not to the extent of coming back to the colour of the paper base. It's really only all that obvious when a fresh sheet of this paper is held beside them. So depending on the paper and the display conditions one can expect different kinds of outcomes, some worse than others.

[rdonson]

Mark, my history is similar to yours.  My first "real" printer was the Epson 2200.  Like you I still have Epson matte and luster papers from that era that haven't degraded nearly as much as some people suggest.  The only Red River papers I used were card sized and pre-scored and even they have held up reasonably well.  I don't subject them to direct sunlight but most aren't stored in any sort of serious archival fashion.

[Wayne Fox]

Just curious how much “time” is adequate for a card?  I don’t view cards as archival, and buyers wouldn’t expect them to last decades.  I have Moab Entrada cards that are several years old that appear to be without issue, I also found a stack of the same cards unprinted that have been sitting on a shelf for at least 6 years with no issues.

I sell cards in my gallery, 5x7 moab cards with envelope, $6 each.  Not sure what customers do with them, but I don’t think any of them consider them a piece of art or a collectable item.

I’ve tried a couple of the Red River card stock, but feel like the Moab Entrada BW cards the best so far.

[rdonson]

Wayne, most of the cards I printed were landscapes and virtually all of them were displayed in corporate cubicles or on refrigerators.  A few sat on mantles for a while.  They're mostly seen as an impulse purchase, I think.  I gave most of mine away to friends and relatives as thank you or note cards.

Anyway, like you, if I print cards again I'll be using Moab Entrada or maybe the Hahnemuhle if someone wants something out of the ordinary. 

[HSakols]

My new favorite paper is San Gabriel Baryta SemiGloss 2.0.  Especially when it is on sale.

[Ken Bennett]

I use the Red River card stock, Polar Matte usually. It's just for personal and professional cards - holiday cards, thank-you notes, personal notes like sympathy cards and the like. I don't sell them. They seem to hold up just fine, as I still have holiday cards from years ago and don't see any fading or discoloration. But I don't expect anyone to keep them very long, though I do get a kick out of walking into a colleague's office and my New Year's card is hanging on their bulletin board.

I did use RR papers for a while and ended up switching back to Epson papers.

[Gary Damaskos]

I used to use the Red River Matte and Polar matt for designers that requested it. All of those prints have horribly degraded, usually within a couple of years due to the excessive use of poorly made oba. The old Epson "archival :-) matte" papers have yellowed and turned dark in the paper base as well, but the Red River papers were the absolute worst media I've ever used. They probably do market a few papers that are better, but all the ones I printed on were junk, real junk.

john

I have been using RedRiver Papers polar matte and Ultra pro gloss for maybe 5 years and have seen no problems at all, cards and sheets. I either spray, frame or lam, but even some refrigerator cards are fine and they get some sun. So in summary my experience with RR has been great.

[Pete Berry]

Been using RR papers for proofing for the better part of 10 years, and in checking some older UltraPro SG 2.0 lying around and its newer variants, I see no yellowing.
Pete

[Ernst Dinkla]

My observation on the Red Rider Aurora White and the Moab Endura Rag Bright does not imply that all papers made by the companies showed issues. For example Red River has a good alternative for the Epson Legacy Platine, Canson Platine Rag, etc with its Red River Palo Duro Softgloss Rag. I just mention the yellowing effect of the two papers stored in a multi binder here. There is not much light entering in that binder but air can get in. The OP did not mention at first which card paper he used so I thought it could be the Aurora.

I think there is a relation between the here mentioned Red River and Moab rag papers but they are not identical. The weight differs, 190 and 300 for the Moab and 250 (230 measured) for the Red River. I see a difference in the image quality, possibly there are more coating layers on the Moab paper than on the Red River one, the last has a poorer image quality. Tecco, Inkpress and Canon might have some papers from the same source, rag, dual sided, similar weights and the same spectral plot. All have a high OBA content. Other users may not have experienced issues with the papers but I avoid papers with OBA content that high.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots