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Author Topic: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??  (Read 1941 times)

One Frame at a Time

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Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« on: March 28, 2017, 02:15:21 AM »

Hi,  Did a search and not finding anything definitive  on this. 

I just got a new system with Win 10 installed.
The win 10 photo viewer does not display my jpg exports out of LR properly.  I am reading contadictory posts about it not picking up my calibration profile.
Initially I thought it was a color shift going from RAW to the sRGB color space but the shift is way too large and always too red.
I used the default V4 profile setting from i1.  Will running it again as V2 fix the issue? 

I use LR to export my images for web use but dont like to add them into the LR library - so I need a photoviewer or some means to accurately view them after export.

Thanks!

Paul
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Simon Garrett

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2017, 03:42:00 AM »

No, it isn't colour-managed.  It ignores embedded profiles and the monitor profile. 

The previous Windows Photo Viewer (which is colour-managed) is still there in Windows 10, but for some bizarre reason known only to Microsoft it is not enabled except for tifs (which the new app doesn't handle). 

You can enable the old Windows Photo Viewer for jpegs but it takes a registry patch, which is easier than it sounds.  See for example https://www.cnet.com/uk/how-to/how-to-get-windows-photo-viewer-back-in-windows-10/ or Google for how to enable Windows Photo Viewer on Windows 10.

PS - neither Edge nor Internet Explorer are properly colour-managed either, though work very approximately OK on standard gamut monitors.

Odd that Microsoft were instrumental in developing colour management for PCs and yet their software is pretty much the worst at implementing it!
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2017, 05:53:46 AM »

No, it isn't colour-managed.  It ignores embedded profiles and the monitor profile.

I've 'always' used the free IrfanView image viewer application. Once the file extensions are associated with Irfanview, double-clicking the file in the File Explorer will open it in IrfanView (which has an option to enable/disable colormanagement).

Cheers,
Bart
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One Frame at a Time

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2017, 12:18:09 PM »

This is insane!  I read that going from the v4 profile back to a v2 one would fix the issue (like it did in Win 7) but to not have it managed at all is the stupidest thing I have heard in a while.
I looked at irfan but the site looks ancient.  Also Im really paranoid that freeware has embedded viruses etc (I dont understand why this stuff is free I guess).
Doing the registry thing looks a little daunting.  Copy and pasting so much code (that I dont understand) into the registry also makes me uneasy....

Sh_t! What to do?? 
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TonyW

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2017, 02:55:10 PM »

This is insane!  I read that going from the v4 profile back to a v2 one would fix the issue (like it did in Win 7) but to not have it managed at all is the stupidest thing I have heard in a while.
I looked at irfan but the site looks ancient.  Also Im really paranoid that freeware has embedded viruses etc (I dont understand why this stuff is free I guess).
Doing the registry thing looks a little daunting.  Copy and pasting so much code (that I dont understand) into the registry also makes me uneasy....

Sh_t! What to do??
Seems to me that you have several options:

1.  Bart's mention of IrfanView a well known and respected application with the added bonus of being free.  Downloading from a known source as Bart's link should virtually guarantee a clean file and of course you will be running at least one malware catcher and anti virus and can scan the file first

2.  Simon's mention of getting the previous version of Windows Photo viewer back.  Editing the registry is not all that daunting and of course you will make a backup first and store it in a place where you will find it.  Copying so much code manually is fraught however but you do not need to as the necessary files have been zipped and once downloaded and unzipped a simple click of the mouse and choose Merge will copy the necessary information into the registry.

https://www.howtogeek.com/225844/how-to-make-windows-photo-viewer-your-default-image-viewer-on-windows-10/

3.  Also there is FastStone Image Viewer http://www.faststone.org/FSViewerDetail.htm another free option to home users.  You will need to enable colour management as I do not think that it is enabled by default

Changing back to V2 from V4 will not IMO solve the issue here, however it may be a good idea to do this anyway as there does appear to be odd issues associated with V4

« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 03:00:49 PM by TonyW »
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scyth

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2017, 09:46:56 PM »

Sh_t! What to do??

1) XnView / XnViewMP is color managed (make sure to go into setup menu) = http://www.xnview.com/en/ = free

2) fastrawviewer ( http://www.fastrawviewer.com/ ) is also a JPG viewer = low cost

3) Adobe Bridge... free

4) even firefox web browser (after a proper setup) to view a JPG image file (no browsing though) - free
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 09:51:58 PM by scyth »
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Pictus

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2017, 12:21:55 AM »

3.  Also there is FastStone Image Viewer http://www.faststone.org/FSViewerDetail.htm another free option to home users.  You will need to enable colour management as I do not think that it is enabled by default

Sadly FastStone color management does not work well... :(
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One Frame at a Time

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2017, 10:50:44 AM »

Thanks guys!  I guess if going to v2 does not solve the issue I'll install Xnviewer....

Tony, if v2 is still creating problems for photographers, why does x rite default to v4?
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TonyW

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2017, 02:31:11 PM »

Thanks guys!  I guess if going to v2 does not solve the issue I'll install Xnviewer....

Tony, if v2 is still creating problems for photographers, why does x rite default to v4?
I think I may have spoken incorrectly, I had thought that Windows Photo Viewer issue had been resolved.  It appears it has not at least with the older version of WPV you needed to us V2.  So you may actually get a better managed solution by changing to V4 - worth a try?

Here,s what Native Digital had to say 2013
http://nativedigital.co.uk/site/2013/02/icc-version-2-or-4/
 
Quote
Companies such as X-Rite and DataColor make the profiling software and then a myriad of companies such as Adobe, Apple and Microsoft make software that can use ICC profiles in colour transformations. So while the specification of v4 is theoretically better than v2 there are problems in implementing v4 profiles in the real world.

I guess only X-Rite can answer your question but some years ago an answer was given for the ColorMunki which equally applied to the i1 Display
Quote
ColorMunki Photo and ColorMunki Design v1.1 has added features which allow users to set preferences that pertain to which version of Display and Printer Profiles to create.  This is extremely helpful when some third party applications are not compatible with v4 ICC profiles at this time and can create dark or unexpected results.

ColorMunki Photo and ColorMunki Design v1.1 software now allows  the ability to choose between either v2 or v4 ICC profiles.  This can be very useful  when using an application such as Windows Photo Gallery that is not compatible yet with v4 ICC.  To change these settings simply open the ColorMunki software. 
Therefore it seems to be policy that as V4 seen to be better that it is up to the application provider to sort out compatibility issues which I think is a fair comment but it would be nice if some warning could be issued with the X-Rite software (perhaps it has but I have not seen it ?)

I also wonder if this is really a Windows only issue.  In any case shame on MS it may be a free OS with 'free' applications but please try and update to accommodate newer profile versions
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One Frame at a Time

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2017, 03:19:47 PM »

Tony,

Last year, I replaced my i1 ( was still on my old win 7 system) and it made a v4 profile by default.  I then noticed my win 7 photo viewer had issues. 
It was suggested that the win 7 photo viewer did not play nice with the new v4 monitor profiles and that going back to v2 was the answer.
That did indeed fix my problem.

Now I am Win 10 and the new viewer does not play nice w v4.  I can recalibrate right now but I will try it with v2 when I can. 
Still getting the sense that it will not fix the problem.  I will report back either way.
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TonyW

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2017, 04:42:17 PM »

....Now I am Win 10 and the new viewer does not play nice w v4.  I can recalibrate right now but I will try it with v2 when I can. 
Still getting the sense that it will not fix the problem.  I will report back either way.
Have just had a quick play with WPV on my WIn 10 64 bit system.  Monitor calibration i1 Display using V2 profile.  Copying the 4 images (top left, right, bottom left, right) from ColorOrg they display correctly in WVP.  In Faststone they do not display correctly until CMS turned on in the Tabbed dialogue.

Good luck, I am fairly confident that you will get it right
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One Frame at a Time

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2017, 05:54:50 PM »

I had time to re calibrate today to a v2 profile.  After creating and rebooting the image in the Win 10 Photo Viewer it still had the red color shift
as compared to looking at  the adjusted image on Lightroom and a jpeg I exported and sent to my fb page (via chrome).  The PV jpeg was way off. 
Unless there is a switch that I cant find it seems that the included photo viewer in Win 10 does not support color management and hence......  sucks ass......

Thanks for all that took time to help me get this sorted.  I guess I'll need to download and install a 3rd party viewer.  And if your running win 10, you
may want to do the same. 
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JaapD

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2017, 06:45:51 AM »

During startup the monitor profile gets loaded into the video card. The Spyder app takes care of this. After this every application is color managed, even Word and Excel.
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Simon Garrett

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2017, 07:50:41 AM »

During startup the monitor profile gets loaded into the video card. The Spyder app takes care of this. After this every application is color managed, even Word and Excel.

Not quite, I'm afraid.

There are two parts to the information in a monitor profile.  The main part, used by colour-management, is merely a measurement of the monitor characteristics.  This is used by colour-managed programs (and only by colour-managed programs) to map colours from the image colour space (typically sRGB, Adobe RGB etc) to the unique colour space of the monitor, measured when the monitor is calibrated and profiled by Spyder, xrite, Agyll etc software. 

The other part is calibration information, which as you say is loaded into the video card at boot time.  This is not really about colour management.

When one runs the calibration/profiling software, it does two things:
  • First, calibration: it attempts to adjust the white point and Tone Response Curve (TRC) of the monitor to the required state (e.g. 6500K and a 2.2 gamma curve).  This adjustment is done by Look Up Tables that are, as you say, loaded into the Video Card Gamma Tables at boot time.  This information is written into the vcgt field of the profile, although technically it isn't profile information. 
  • Then, profiling: it measures the resulting white point, TRC and colour space of the monitor, after calibration.  This information - a measurement of the monitor - is also written into the profile.

All programs are affected by the calibration, including Word and Excel, and benefit from the calibrated white point and TRC.  Only colour-managed programs use the colour space information in the profile. 

For example, suppose you save an image in two copies (with embedded profiles): one in sRGB and one converted to in Adobe RGB.  If you display them using a colour-managed program to a calibrated/profiled monitor then they will look the same, as one would expect (and want). 

If you display them with a non colour-managed program (such as the Windows 10 Photos App), even if the monitor is calibrated and profiled, the Adobe RGB version will look undersaturated compared to the sRGB version. 
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TonyW

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2017, 11:08:11 AM »

I had time to re calibrate today to a v2 profile.  After creating and rebooting the image in the Win 10 Photo Viewer it still had the red color shift
as compared to looking at  the adjusted image on Lightroom and a jpeg I exported and sent to my fb page (via chrome).  The PV jpeg was way off. 
Unless there is a switch that I cant find it seems that the included photo viewer in Win 10 does not support color management and hence......  sucks ass......

Thanks for all that took time to help me get this sorted.  I guess I'll need to download and install a 3rd party viewer.  And if your running win 10, you
may want to do the same.
Had to double check this as TBH I do not touch WPV, but it is as far as I can tell fully colour managed (at least the older version which was linked to earlier).  Therefore I think that the problem lies elsewhere in your system.

To mimic what I think you did I took a raw image and output to TIFF (JPEG would be the same) and output as sRGB, Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB.  Then leaving the image open in Lightroom I opened each one in WPV - all looked exactly the same as what was displayed in the LR window.  Screen grab attached showing sRGB and ProPhoto in WPV.

As to the problem you are experiencing I suspect one of two potential issues

1.  You have a faulty V2 profile

2.  Windows is not applying the correct profile.  Worth checking Windows colour management has correctly identified your monitor and the use my profile ticked and the correct profile is listed.  Attached screenshot.  If it is go to 1.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 11:20:53 AM by TonyW »
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Simon Garrett

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2017, 11:21:25 AM »

Had to double check this as TBH I do not touch WPV, but it is as far as I can tell fully colour managed. 

Just confirming: I assume by "WPV" you mean Windows Photo Viewer - the viewer that was in W7 and is also in W10 but won't open jpegs in W10 without a registry patch.  That program shows "<file name> - Windows Photo Viewer" in the title bar of the window.  I'm quite sure that is fully colour-managed; I've just checked.

On the other hand, the "Photos" app which is new to Windows 10: I'm quite sure that is not colour-managed; again, I've just checked.  The Photos app shows "<file name> - Photos" in the title bar of the window, and the title bar is black. 
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 11:24:50 AM by Simon Garrett »
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TonyW

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2017, 11:28:39 AM »

Just confirming: I assume by "WPV" you mean Windows Photo Viewer - the viewer that was in W7 and is also in W10 but won't open jpegs in W10 without a registry patch.  I'm quite sure that is fully colour-managed; I've just checked.

On the other hand, the "Photos" app which is new to Windows 10: I'm quite sure that is not colour-managed; again, I've just checked.
Yes Simon Windows Photo Viewer. 

It seems to be that if you have upgraded from Win 7 or 8 (my particular route) you can use WPV without issue but if you have a fresh install then you need the registry patch - which is just an easy merge from the links we supplied.

I too am sure that the Photo's app is not colour managed as I have also checked.  Sometimes I wonder what MS are thinking when doing this sort of thing
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RoyH

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2017, 12:10:19 PM »

After reading all the information posted so far, I will chime in with what I see on my Win 10 system. I have both a sRGB monitor calibrated with a Spyder 5 and a NEC wide-gamut monitor calibrated with the X-Rite sensor and Spectraview.

I see no issues when viewing exported sRGB jpegs in the Win 10 'Photos' app on either monitor. The jpegs view identical, expect for the normal wide to small color space changes you would expect, to the ProPhoto PSD files the jpegs were exported from. For grins, I also just exported one of the PSD files I had previously exported with sRGB color space keeping the ProPhoto color space and it also displayed correctly in the Win 10 'Photos' app.

I should point out that I do not use Lightroom and export using ACDsee Ultimate from PSD files created with Photoshop CS6.

Like TonyW, I also do believe that with properly calibrated monitors and everything working correctly exported jpegs should display correctly in the Win 10 'Photos' app.

It does appear that something is not working correctly with the OP's system and this is not a inherit Win 10 problem.

Good luck to the OP for resolving your issues!

Roy
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rasworth

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2017, 04:34:20 PM »

I believe Photos does half the color management job, but doesn't correctly utilize the monitor profile.

I have a Windows 10 system with a wide gamut monitor, a BenQ SW2700PT, with a custom profile generated using an XRite Display 1 Pro and the BenQ software.  The profile resides in Win10 as the default user and system monitor profile.

I used the PDI printer test image, previously converted into the ProPhoto colorspace.  First I brought it into Photos, did a Windows 10 screen print, and pasted the clipboard into a New untagged document in Photoshop CC.  I assigned the monitor profile to the PS document, and next converted it to sRGB and saved it out as a jpg.  The image is the first attachment.

Secondly, I opened the same PDI printer test image into Photoshop, and went thru the same screen print, etc. process, and saved it out as a jpg, second attachment.

I believe Photos properly converted the ProPhoto image into sRGB, but the displayed version is way too saturated, exactly as though Photos drove the monitor directly with the sRGB values, without first converting it using the system monitor profile.

Richard Southworth

Added by edit - Please note the Photoshop version shows ProPhoto as the embedded profile, but this is the original image, the screen print version is in sRGB.  Also I have to use Firefox to properly view this post on my system, in Internet Explorer both attachments  are incorrectly displayed.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 04:43:03 PM by rasworth »
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One Frame at a Time

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Re: Is Windows 10 Photoviewer ICC Aware??
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2017, 02:38:08 AM »

Thanks again for everyone's input.  Richard, I'm running the BenQ also.  However I'm not using the Ben Q software. 
I'm a little surprised your seeing differences as I thought the BenqSW builds an internal Lut that resides in the monitor itself.
The generated profile installed in Windows is only a placeholder.  Not sure of that but seem to remember reading that somewhere.
The differences in your images are similar to what I'm seeing on the photo viewer but  Chrome or Lightroom look accurate and match.
I'm using the profile generated by, and installed by the Xrite software.
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