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Author Topic: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions  (Read 38680 times)

dantemi

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #80 on: April 12, 2017, 03:26:44 am »

I'm facing the same issue of Brad P from the opposite side: I strongly hope that Hasselblad does not come out with a X2D in a year.
Whereas Fuji is well known for taking care of existing products through continuous firmware update, my concern with Hasselblad is that they could go with the sony approach that is replacing a camera every year and half instead of improving it.
I changed so many systems in the last 4 years (leica, nikon, sony and canon) that I'd like to stand with one a bit longer...   
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Brad P

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #81 on: April 12, 2017, 03:55:00 am »

What he was saying is that the large MF sensor used in the H6D-100c will never fit in the X1D.

He was not commenting on possible use of future higher resolution sensors in the 33x44mm format. sony has just announced a plan to release a 100 mp 33x44mm sensor and I am sure that it will be in the X2D when available... and also in the GFX.

Yes, you probably are right, and as a practical matter that makes good sense (although the article still seems at least ambiguously written on future intentions with the line).  I suppose I would feel a bit better if I saw some marketing material or other company statements stating that the Nittoh manufactured lenses were designed With 100MP sensors in mind, which I haven't seen in the specs or any other material I have found anyway. The MTF charts look pretty good.

I gotta say I am swooned by the looks of the X1D.  I know I shouldn't be ....
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Brad P

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #82 on: April 12, 2017, 04:40:02 am »

At this moment Fuji has no 100MP back Camera as Hasselblad does with the 32.000$ Hasselblad H6D-100c. I can imagine Perry Oosting does not want to cannibalize the sale of this camera.

Agreed. Your $ sign makes the point better than I did about what Hasselblad's decision tree might look like during the next few years. 

Here is some info on sensors scheduled to come from Sony over the next few years.   https://petapixel.com/2017/04/04/sony-plans-release-150mp-medium-format-sensor-2018/   The 100MP 44x33mm sensor presumably will become available to Fuji, Hasselblad, Pentax and any other manufacturers that might enter the MF market.  Hasselblad might be forced by the market to put that sensor in the X1D to compete in the lower end MF market -- if they choose to continue to compete in that market.  Then they and Phase One's high end MF cameras might need to move into the 55x41mm 150MP sensor.  Pure meaningless speculation on my part maybe.  But I'd still feel more comfortable spending the $20K or so I'm about to spend with some kind of rudimentary roadmap articulated by Hasselblad.  I get the sense from my readings that Fuji is more committed at least publicly with aggressively advancing its mirrorless MF platform.  After all, Fuji has nothing it will have to cannibalize.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 05:05:31 am by Brad P »
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dantemi

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #83 on: April 12, 2017, 07:09:38 am »

Any suggestion on the lens choice?
My idea would be to get the 30 and the 90 and the 63 once available in the future. However, at least in Italy, the 30 is a scarce resource whereas the 45 is largely available.
Should I get just one lens to start with, which one? 
What's your thoughts on this?
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Rdmax

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #84 on: April 12, 2017, 07:27:06 am »

Any suggestion on the lens choice?
My idea would be to get the 30 and the 90 and the 63 once available in the future. However, at least in Italy, the 30 is a scarce resource whereas the 45 is largely available.
Should I get just one lens to start with, which one? 
What's your thoughts on this?

Pick your favorite focal length and roll with it
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dantemi

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #85 on: April 12, 2017, 07:28:55 am »

My favorite is the 63 (50 equivalent in fullframe) :(
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Juanito

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #86 on: April 12, 2017, 10:42:58 am »

I wouldn't worry about whether Hasselblad will or won't upgrade the sensor to more megapixels in the future. Whatever they do, you can bet that they will respond to market conditions. If their competition upgrades to a 100mp sensor, you can bet that they'll either want to match that or beat them to it - if they feel that the market is there. None of these companies operate in a vacuum.

In response to what lens to get, I'm loving the 45mm. I'm a wide angle kind of guy though. A normal lens is long for me.

X1D: ISO 3200, 45mm lens - 1/20 sec, f3.5

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #87 on: April 12, 2017, 07:40:47 pm »

I sent back the Fuji GFX, the Pentax K1, and so on. I also came close to sending the X1D back as well, but I got at least a little breath of fresh air in all this.

I feel I am beginning to understand the X1D and perhaps medium-format cameras in general. I used to have a Mamiya RZ67, which I probably never understood well enough; anyway, I never really learned to use it.

Using the Hasselblad X1D these days, I begin to (perhaps) better understand what the old hands with medium-format cameras have been trying to point out to those of us coming in from the DSLR. For one, these small medium-format cameras like the X1D and GFX are not just the next version of the DSLR, like many of us are looking for. I know that, because Nikon has failed to update the D810, I am looking for the next version of that camera, if not from Nikon, then from somewhere else.

However, what is starting to sink in or at least come through is something a little different from what I imagined the X1D (or GFX) is all about. We can imagine that cameras like the X1D are the next step beyond full-frame DSLRs, as I did, but this is really a different kind of camera, not simply an extension of the full-frame DSLR. I am starting to understand that.

No, the X1D (at least so far) is not as “sharp” as what I can get with the Nikon D810. That’s true. It’s a different take on photography, one with some subtlety, at least for me. It is hard to put into words, but I will try, so please don’t shoot the messenger. I am just trying to grasp the nature of these little medium-format mirrorless cameras, and to get with the program.

There is somehow more space with the 50 Mpx sensor, and certainly more light. I have never seen as gentle a roll-off for highlights than with the X1D. There is something similar with the Nikon D810 blacks at ISO 64 that is magic. This I know. But I can see there is a corresponding thing happening with highlights and the Hasselblad X1D.

My question now is how to learn to use this particular approach to light. At least I am respectful and realize I have been barking up the wrong tree by trying make the X1D the future of full-frame DSLRS. What’s new for me is that I don’t (yet) know how best to use the lightness and space of the X1D images. At least I know I don’t know.

The images from the X1D are not as sharp, and they seem to need a little extra contrast. But most of all, at least right now for me, they need more time for me to work with the process of taking images with this camera. Focus has to be done (and checked) very deliberately. What I call in focus-stacking “short stacks” (a few layers only in a stacked image) seem to lend themselves very naturally to the X1D. Larger and longer stacks do not.

My whole approach with the X1D has to be more like a movie set, where infinite pains are made to arrange an impression before we make the impression by actually taking a photo. It reminds me of the old view cameras and, of course, it is all about process. Process in using the X1D is as much a part of the result as any resulting images could be. And attention to such process, very careful attention, results in the kind of images I didn’t even know I was looking for. Yet, I like them.

So the Hasselblad X1D speeds up my process in photography by further slowing me down with that very same process, so that the resulting images improve as the process improves through more painstaking. I am sure other photographers will push other envelopes, although this really is not a sports or event camera, but more a still-life camera, at least for me.

In other words, this may well be what I have been looking for, but it is not what I expected. Expectations cannot define, and you can’t expect to find what you expect. I get that now and that is the future.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 03:36:30 am by Michael Erlewine »
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Rdmax

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #88 on: April 12, 2017, 08:28:23 pm »

I sent back the Fuji GFX, the Pentax K1, and so on. I also came close to sending the X1D back as well, but I got at least a little breath of fresh air in all this.

I feel I am beginning to understand the X1D and perhaps medium-format cameras in general. I used to have a Mamiya RZ67, which I probably never understood well enough; anyway, I never really learned to use it.

Using the Hasselblad X1D these days, I begin to (perhaps) better understand what the old hands with medium-format cameras have been trying to point out to those of us coming in from the DSLR. For one, these small medium-format cameras like the X1D and GFX are not just the next version of the DSLR, like many of us are looking for. I know that, because Nikon has failed to update the D810, I am looking for the next version of that camera, if not from Nikon, then from somewhere else.

However, what is starting to sink in or at least come through is something a little different from what I imagined the X1D (of GFX) is all about. We can imagine that cameras like the X1D are the next step beyond full-frame DSLRs, as I did, but this is really a different kind of camera, not simply an extension of the full-frame DSLR. I am starting to understand that.

No, the X1D (at least so far) is not as “sharp” as what I can get with the Nikon D810. That’s true. It’s a different take on photography, one with some subtlety, at least for me. It is hard to put into words, but I will try, so please don’t shoot the messenger. I am just trying to grasp the nature of these little medium-format mirrorless cameras, and to get with the program.

There is somehow more space with the 50 Mpx sensor, and certainly more light. I have never seen as gentle a roll-off for highlights than with the X1D. There is something similar with the Nikon D810 blacks at ISO 64 that is magic. This I know. But I can see there is a corresponding thing happening with highlights and the Hasselblad X1D.

My question now is how to learn to use this particular approach to light. At least I am respectful and realize I have been barking up the wrong tree by trying make the X1D the future of full-frame DSLRS. What’s new for me is that I don’t (yet) know how best to use the lightness and space of the X1D images. At least I know I don’t know.

The images from the X1D are not as sharp, and they seem to need a little extra contrast. But most of all, at least right now for me, they need more time for me to work with the process of taking images with this camera. Focus has to be done (and checked) very deliberately. What I call in focus-stacking “short stacks” (a few layers only in a stacked image) seem to lend themselves very naturally to the X1D. Larger and longer stacks do not.

My whole approach with the X1D has to be more like a movie set, where infinite pains are made to arrange an impression before we make the impression by actually taking a photo. It reminds me of the old view cameras and, of course, it is all about process. Process in using the X1D is as much a part of the result as any resulting images could be. And attention to such process, very careful attention, results in the kind of images I didn’t even know I was looking for. Yet, I like them.

So the Hasselblad X1D speeds up my process in photography by further slowing me down with that very same process, so that the resulting images improve as the process improves through more painstaking. I am sure other photographers will push other envelopes, although this really is not a sports or event camera, but more a still-life camera, at least for me.

In other words, this may well be what I have been looking for, but it is not what I expected. Expectations cannot define, and you can’t expect to find what you expect. I get that now and that is the future.

Welcome to perfectionism!
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Brad P

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #89 on: April 12, 2017, 09:16:30 pm »

The images from the X1D are not as sharp, and they seem to need a little extra contrast. But most of all, at least right now for me, they need more time for me to work with the process of taking images with this camera. Focus has to be done (and checked) very deliberately. What I call in focus-stacking “short stacks” (a few layers only in a stacked image) seem to lend themselves very naturally to the X1D. Larger and longer stacks do not.

My whole approach with the X1D has to be more like a movie set, where infinite pains are made to arrange an impression before we make the impression by actually taking a photo. It reminds me of the old view cameras and, of course, it is all about process. Process in using the X1D is as much a part of the result as any resulting images could be. And attention to such process, very careful attention, results in the kind of images I didn’t even know I was looking for. Yet, I like them.

Hi Michael - huge fan of your work.  Years ago your website and pics inspired me to dive pretty deeply into focus stacking.  That cost me a bit of dough (but was worth it!).  I've also had great results with those techniques on more intermediate range subjects and backgrounds.

In that regard, I've been trying to figure out how well the H1D or GFX would do with focus stacking and can't find anything very helpful.  You say short stacks work well with the X1D. If I remember correctly you're talking about 5 or 15 shots through a flower, for example, and not 50 or so shots through extraordinary detailed subjects.  Is that about right?   I'm sure any additional thoughts you might share on how well the X1D or GFX does focus stacking generally, and any limitations you have found, will end up helpful to a number of readers here.

I share the slow down points too.  I forgot the name of a photographer I read about years ago whose practice for years was to take only one shot a day...


« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 09:59:30 pm by Brad P »
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #90 on: April 13, 2017, 02:36:08 am »

Hi MichIn that regard, I've been trying to figure out how well the H1D or GFX would do with focus stacking and can't find anything very helpful.  You say short stacks work well with the X1D. If I remember correctly you're talking about 5 or 15 shots through a flower, for example, and not 50 or so shots through extraordinary detailed subjects.  Is that about right?   I'm sure any additional thoughts you might share on how well the X1D or GFX does focus stacking generally, and any limitations you have found, will end up helpful to a number of readers here.


I am thinking of 3-6 images to make a short stack. If the forthcoming 120mm macro lens is very sharp, then perhaps more regular (longer) stacks will be dictated.
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #91 on: April 17, 2017, 11:33:13 am »

I (believe) I have finished many weeks of testing the Hasselblad X1D and the Fujifilm GFX, both frontier-pushing cameras. As for which one I will keep, the answer is neither. I have talked about the GFX before, so I will just leave some comments on the Hasselblad X1D. I don’t think my particular problems with these cameras will probably affect most other photographers, but here they are.

The problem I have with the Hasselblad X1D has to do with lenses. At this point, it does not have a focal-plane shutter, although there was some talk that it could be added to firmware, but I consider chances of that slim to none.

What this means is that the lenses that have been announced up to now by Hasselblad are f/3.5, not the fastest lenses. And lacking that speed means that if I want to focus-stack by painting focus with the lens wide open where I want it to be (while leaving the rest go to bokeh), with f/3.5 I don’t really have the kind of blurry bokeh that a fast lens (f/1.4) can produce. So, photos taken with the X1D are going to have the background more in focus than I like. Another point is that the lenses for the X1D I have (90mm and 45mm) are sharp, but not Zeiss Otis sharp or, for that matter, all that well corrected. They are fine for many tasks, I will agree. I have been spoiled by the Zeiss Otus lenses, the APO Zeiss 135mm, and a rather large group of industrial lenses that I have collected over the years, all of which can’t be mounted on the X1D.

As mentioned, the Hasselblad lenses are “sharp  enough,” just barely for what I like to do, but if I look too close, they are not really, really THAT sharp. I can see the limit (and the difference) and I focus with LiveView magnified (and check aperture preview, etc.) very carefully. So, right now, that’s it for sharpness. Is that something I can live with? I know that many people are happy with the degree of sharpness offered by the XCD lenses, but am I? I go back and forth. Sure, I can put up with it, but does it make me happy? No. It makes me feel resigned or limited. That’s just me, but I found it an inhibiting factor.

Part of me says, forget-about-it, and just take some photos. They will be sharp enough. But there is another part of me that keeps nagging me with “It’s not really sharp, but just barely sharp enough.” Given that bokeh depends on its contrast with sharpness elsewhere in the photo, for me this is kind of a losing proposition. Anyway, that war is still waging inside me. I like the X1D. It is easy-to-use, clean, small, great haptics, everything I could ask for, but it does not take all the lenses I have collected over the years that are highly corrected (APO). It’s that simple. I know. This should have been clear to me from the start, but I always have to see for myself what I can and cannot do. There was a chance that all would be copasetic. It did not turn out that way.

For me that means I have to use all of my APO lenses elsewhere and with another camera. I can see that, but for me that makes the X1D a very expensive “alternate” camera to my Nikon D810 and other technical cameras. The X1D then becomes a large money sink against getting whatever new camera that either Nikon or Sony will debut in the next year. I can’t afford to have all the new cameras that pop up.

I also carefully tried the Pentax K1 and the Fuji GFX, looking for Mr. Good-Camera (for my work) each of which also had problems I found these problems hindered what my work. All are great systems, but not for what I do. And so I wait for Sony or Nikon to debut something that I can perhaps work with. I will, in the meantime, continue to work with the D810 and the Sony AR7 II in a variety of ways. That’s my two-cents.


Here is a photo taken with the Hasselblad X1D, an example of what kind of photos I tend to do.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 11:45:14 am by Michael Erlewine »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #92 on: April 17, 2017, 11:55:14 am »

What this means is that the lenses that have been announced up to now by Hasselblad are f/3.5, not the fastest lenses. And lacking that speed means that if I want to focus-stack by painting focus with the lens wide open where I want it to be (while leaving the rest go to bokeh), with f/3.5 I don’t really have the kind of blurry bokeh that a fast lens (f/1.4) can produce. So, photos taken with the X1D are going to have the background more in focus than I like. Another point is that the lenses for the X1D I have (90mm and 45mm) are sharp, but not Zeiss Otis sharp or, for that matter, all that well corrected. They are fine for many tasks, I will agree. I have been spoiled by the Zeiss Otus lenses, the APO Zeiss 135mm, and a rather large group of industrial lenses that I have collected over the years, all of which can’t be mounted on the X1D.

Given that you want focus stacking, more bokeh, and aren't taking the GFX or X1D, have you considered the Phase One XF? It has focus stacking built in, and with a full-frame 645 sensor like an IQ3 100mp (at the high end) or refurb IQ160 or refurb IQ260 (on the low end) you can get some very creamy bokeh.

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #93 on: April 17, 2017, 12:33:25 pm »

Given that you want focus stacking, more bokeh, and aren't taking the GFX or X1D, have you considered the Phase One XF? It has focus stacking built in, and with a full-frame 645 sensor like an IQ3 100mp (at the high end) or refurb IQ160 or refurb IQ260 (on the low end) you can get some very creamy bokeh.

The question is can I use alternate lenses?
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #94 on: April 17, 2017, 12:55:19 pm »

The question is can I use alternate lenses?

On a tech camera...
If you have the budget for an IQ3 100mp you can use just about any lens ever made; it can use a fully electronic shutter. Whether any given lens will be sharp, cover a full 645 frame sensor, etc is of course a separate question. Slap it on an Universalis or Actus or similar and you can use the rail markings for nice consistent focus stacking, and best yet the lens won't move so point of view will stay identical.

If you're using another back (e.g. IQ260) then you'll need a lens with a shutter built in on a tech camera.

On an XF...
The XF has a focal plane shutter and can use any lens you can get to mount on it. For infinity focus you need lenses that were designed for Mamiya 645, or for 6x6 or larger (e.g. Hassy 200, Hassy 500, Pentax 67, Pentacon 67 etc). Since these lenses will not have autofocus on the XF you cannot focus stack automatically, but you can of course do as you'd do with any other camera and simply turn the focus of the lens manually.

If you use a Mamiya/Phase/Schneider autofocus lens then you gain automatic focus stacking. It's very helpful, especially on tuning or repeating a stack (e.g. you decide you need another frame in the stack, you just turn one knob to increase the number of frames and then push one button to start the stack (with the new number of frames).

I'd love to see a focus stack done with the Schneider 130/2 Cinelux Projector lens that I highlighted in my Big Buttery Bokeh series.

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #95 on: April 17, 2017, 01:24:37 pm »


I'd love to see a focus stack done with the Schneider 130/2 Cinelux Projector lens that I highlighted in my Big Buttery Bokeh series.

Interesting information. Thanks. I will study it. Of all those lenses you discuss at your link, which are better corrected or equal to the Zeiss Otus lenses?
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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2017, 10:36:51 pm »

One more thing to report and see if maybe there's a workaround. When shooting with strobes and exposure preview is turned off, the EVF is heavily affected if by white subjects. For example, when shooting a subject with a white shirt, the EVF goes very dark thinking that the scene is overly bright. I've tried using spot metering and then placing the focus point on the face (which isn't so light) but that doesn't help any. It's bad enough that I can hardly make out the detail on the subject's face.

When shooting a darker toned subject, the EVF doesn't blow it out so this only seems to be an issue with light colored subjects.

John

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2017, 06:41:16 am »

The Eleventh Hour with the X1D

Recently, after about ninth months of studying and waiting, I finally decided that the Hasselblad X1D was not ready for Prime Time, at least for my work. And since I can’t afford all the cameras I would like to have, after weeks of testing, I decided to return the X1D while I still could for full credit.

I carefully packed the X1D and the various lenses in their original packing, carefully putting each piece in a plastic bag and otherwise preparing it for the UPS truck. The shop I purchased it from was on Jewish holiday, so I had to wait an extra day in order to cancel the return and put the packages in transit. I could have used the X1D for another day but, no, I had made up my mind, so instead I spent that last day shooting with my trusted Nikon D810 and some of the various great lenses i have, like the Otus 55mm APO, the El Nikkor 105mm APO, and the legendary CRT Nikkor.

Since I often stack focus, the post-processing work always takes much longer than taking the actual photographs. Well, I did all that and when I was done, the photos looked pretty good. As I looked through my photos for my favorites, it hit me that something was missing here. It took some time to figure out, but finally I decided that what wasn’t there was a certain lightness of feeling, call it luminosity or whatever. It was not sharpness, because the lenses for my Nikon are sharper than the X1D. I probably can’t find words to describe it, but it was a certain spaciousness or brightness or simply “light” that was missing in my Nikon photos. That was a surprise.

Despite whatever warts or failings I had found in the Hasselblad X1D, there was some quality that it has that could not be denied and I was suddenly finding myself not denying that fact. “Parting is such sweet sorrow” as Shakespeare said. A certain kind of sadness came over me about having to say goodbye to this lovely camera, even though it did not do everything I needed it to do. Still, there was something about the X1D that I suddenly missed. It was almost like being condemned to not stretch any farther than I had with my Nikon D810. Ouch!

Yet, it was clear to me that I could not afford to keep the X1D, in case Nikon or Sony came out with something in the same ballpark that would work better for what I do. I must say I was a little depressed by all this and suddenly felt limited by my Nikon D810 for the first time. This kind of thinking and feeling went on for some time and it was no fun at all.

Then I realized that I had a lot of high-end video equipment sitting in my main studio that was depreciating these days at lightning speed. I don’t use it and pretty soon it will be worth just pennies on the dollar. I’m just going to sell that and be done with it, and so I am. I am keeping my Hasselblad X1D, if for no other reason than to keep that little bit of light it offers in my life. So, there you have it, a 180-degree flip on my part. The Hasselblad stays in the family of cameras I use. 

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #98 on: April 19, 2017, 06:45:03 am »

Michael,

Thanks for keeping us entertained with your changes of heart. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #99 on: April 19, 2017, 07:44:06 am »

Michael,

Thanks for keeping us entertained with your changes of heart. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Glad I'm good for something. :)
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MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com. Founder MacroStop.com, MichaelErlewine.com, YouTube.com/user/merlewine
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