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Author Topic: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions  (Read 13658 times)

eronald

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #120 on: April 30, 2017, 08:23:26 PM »

I may have got it wrong, but the guy who designed the original Elinchrom flashes - and the ones I used - told me that flash duration is *shorter* when the flash is set to higher power. I know, it sounds counterintuitive, and I may have it wrong.

Edmund
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hubell

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #121 on: April 30, 2017, 08:43:10 PM »

Perhaps someone without an axe to grind here (and you know who you are) can explain this all for me. I had always understood that leaf shutter lenses were a very significant feature with medium format cameras, and Fuji has gone out of its way to assure the buyers of the GFX that a leaf shutter capability would be available by using Hassy HC lenses with an adapter (albeit with no AF). Yet, I read here and elsewhere that HSS is "just as good" so leaf shutters have essentially become irrelevant. Is this true?
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #122 on: May 01, 2017, 01:42:20 AM »

Hi Michael,

Leaf shutters allow to change the balance beween flash light and the surround. Electronic flash can deliver very intense light with very short duration. Leaf shutter expose the while sensor within a short duration. So, a flash may put all it's power on the sensor while the leaf shutter is fully open.

Focal Plane shutters are only fully open at X-shutter sync time. Any shorter time results in partial exposure or wasted power. So, shooting outdoors leaf shutters have some advantage, especially if you want to overpower the sun and let artificial light to dominate. Would you ever want that? Good question!

With fill light it is a bit different. In that case we would let natural light dominate but fill in shadow detail. That may not need all available power from the flash.

Best regards
Erik

Thanks. I would think that I want only fill light and what it can do to improve photos. Any more about the steps to achieve that would be helpful.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #123 on: May 01, 2017, 04:31:17 AM »

Hi,

It depends. I would say that a leaf shutter is probably always more flexible with regards to flash. Let's look at some different cases:


Flash is used as fill light.
In this case we let surround light dominate and flash is used to lighten up dark parts. Flash exposure would probably need to be 1-1.5 EV below surround light. In this case exposure could be like f/8 at 1/300s and both FP and LS would work without much problems. High end 24x36 mm gear often has max sync time of 1/300s.

Same as above, but we need short shutter times to freeze motion
HSS would work here, but it would waste some power as the sensor is not exposed at the same time. HSS would probably work.

We want to have flash dominate over surround light
In this scenario we need to use short shutter time to reduce surround light. The short shutter speed will waste flash power when used with HSS.

So, in the first scenario flash would be easy. It may be that some FP shutters are slower than others. My Pentax 67 had 1/30s shutter speed, not very useful with outdoor flash, but 1/300s should be workable often.

The third scenario essentially demands leaf shutters.

Shooting in a studio with dim light electronic flash would dominate over surround at reasonable speeds. So stop motion is achievable with electronic flash using FP shutters.

So, it depends much on the application. I guess that FP camera users are not using a lot of studio light setups in bright sunlight situations.

It is a bit of horses for the courses, but also choosing which course to start the horse on. Horse owners do it all the timeÖ

Best regards
Erik





Perhaps someone without an axe to grind here (and you know who you are) can explain this all for me. I had always understood that leaf shutter lenses were a very significant feature with medium format cameras, and Fuji has gone out of its way to assure the buyers of the GFX that a leaf shutter capability would be available by using Hassy HC lenses with an adapter (albeit with no AF). Yet, I read here and elsewhere that HSS is "just as good" so leaf shutters have essentially become irrelevant. Is this true?

pschefz

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #124 on: May 01, 2017, 11:46:53 AM »

Perhaps someone without an axe to grind here (and you know who you are) can explain this all for me. I had always understood that leaf shutter lenses were a very significant feature with medium format cameras, and Fuji has gone out of its way to assure the buyers of the GFX that a leaf shutter capability would be available by using Hassy HC lenses with an adapter (albeit with no AF). Yet, I read here and elsewhere that HSS is "just as good" so leaf shutters have essentially become irrelevant. Is this true?

leaf shutter lets you use any flash with any shutter speed....no tweaking no sync magic needed....
HS or HSS requires a lot of communication between flash and camera and (and this is the biggest drawback) a lot of power is lost....
the advantage of HS or HSS is that any shutter speed can be used (1/8000, no problem) and in reality if you have a system flash with your canon, fuji, nikon,...they pretty much all do HSS with TTL on and off camera in a fool proof way....

it comes down to this: people want to shoot outside in full sun wide open....shooting at 1.4 and maybe using the sun as fill requires shutter speeds most leaf shutters just can't do....even if they were available for DSLR.....

when i spoke with my broncolor rep asking about HS he told me to either use fast shutter speed with HS outside (at which point broncolor provides a long flash duration and the shutter freezes the action) or use the camera"s fastest sync speed and the "normal" pack settings which provides the shortest flash duration (and freezes the action that way)....in this case a leaf shutter would be better because (lets say) 1/1000 is pretty short to begin with and the pack would at this point still provide a very short flash duration and that combination would be pretty much ideal....add in fast recycle for continuous shooting....

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Juanito

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #125 on: May 01, 2017, 10:16:33 PM »

Since the leaf shutter issue has been brought up and I've made it a point, I'll try and shed some light on why it's important to me.

Quote
I had always understood that leaf shutter lenses were a very significant feature with medium format cameras,

Actually, this isn't completely true. Most currently sold MF cameras don't have leaf shutters - think Mamiya, Pentax, Fuji, Contax. Hasselblad and some lenses sold by Phase One have leaf shutters. The leaf shutter isn't the exclusive province of MF cameras - the inexpensive Fuji X100 camera comes with a sweet little leaf shutter. If you want the flexibility of the leaf shutter without the cost, it's a great option.

The reason why a leaf shutter is important (to me) is because I can sync my strobes at all shutter speeds. When shooting in the studio, this isn't important, but when shooting outside in daylight, it becomes a real issue. To explain, let's first look at our full sunlight exposure at ISO 100. At f16, our full sun shutter speed is about 1/100. If you wish to overpower full sun, your strobes need to be spitting out enough juice to produce f22 or more. That's an awful lot to ask of your strobes; most can't do it unless they're a foot or two away from the subject.

But if we can increase our shutter speed a few stops - say to 1/400, now we can overpower sunlight by one stop at f11 (keeping in mind the principle of reciprocity). Go to 1/800 and f8 will work. Those are f-stops that can be hit by battery powered strobes such as the 1200 w/s Profoto 7b and even the 500 w/s B1. The benefit to using a leaf shuttered camera is that you have that flexibility to select higher shutter speeds to use with strobes. Focal plane MF cameras are pretty much limited to 1/125 - which means you're going to have a tough time overpowering sunlight.

Here's an example of an image that was shot at 1/350 at f8.5 during the middle of cloudy day. Because of the higher sync speed offered by the leaf shutter, I was able to underexpose the sky to the point that I could bring out their detail.



Now if I'd shot this using Mamiya or Fuji, I'd would have used a 1/125 shutter speed (the max shutter sync speed) at roughly f16 to f16.5. Doable, but I'd have had to crank up my Profoto 7B - which means fewer shots over the course of the day before the battery goes dead. A Profoto B1 probably would not have been able to produce that much power since it cranks out about 1/3 the watt seconds of the 7B.

Anyhow, hope this helps some people to understand what the deal is with the leaf shutter.

Deardorff

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #126 on: May 12, 2017, 08:34:51 AM »

If it isn't 6x6 square, it isn't really a Hasselblad.
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pschefz

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #127 on: May 12, 2017, 04:15:46 PM »

If it isn't 6x6 square, it isn't really a Hasselblad.
if it isn't wood and brass....
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #128 on: May 12, 2017, 08:01:42 PM »

Juanito,

 You could quit that pesky day job and become a science writer :)

Since the leaf shutter issue has been brought up and I've made it a point, I'll try and shed some light on why it's important to me.
---snip---
Anyhow, hope this helps some people to understand what the deal is with the leaf shutter.
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RDMAX

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #129 on: May 17, 2017, 10:39:39 PM »

If it isn't 6x6 square, it isn't really a Hasselblad.

"If it doesn't have a mirror, it isn't really a camera."

"If it wasn't shot in 35mm, then it's not street photography."
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BobShaw

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #130 on: May 17, 2017, 11:30:33 PM »

You could quit that pesky day job and become a science writer :)
Perhaps, but it is really basic information for a photographer using mixed light.
To me if can't convert aperture and shutter speed in your head then you aren't a photographer.
I wonder how many people even on this forum could name the full stops from f1.4 up?
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Chris Livsey

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #131 on: May 18, 2017, 02:52:45 AM »

I wonder how many people even on this forum could name the full stops from f1.4 up?

I have met many photographers and discussed exposure, I shoot a lot of "sunny sixteen" (on film) casually, it is very liberating, very many love the idea, have no problem with the sunny sixteen bit but can't convert the speed/aperture ratio to any other setting.
On topic: I note two X1D outfits are now listed used low shot count in the UK, (at a healthy discount to new, well at least the VAT off for us amateurs) yet to see the other one S/H other than BNIB trying for a premium.

Michael Erlewine

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #132 on: May 18, 2017, 03:23:33 AM »

SELLING MY X1D

After shooting some 1100 or so shots with the Hasselblad X1D system, I have decided that it is not what I need for my work. Iím sure, many will point out that I donít get it, but I am only trying to ďget itĒ for my own work. Itís embarrassing to admit this, after all my praise, but at my age, who cares? I have put my X1D system, including the 45mm and 90mm lenses, plus the lovely RSS L-Bracket and 5 batteries for sale on Ebay under my nickname ALLMUSIC.

Although there are a number of druthers and small reasons for giving up the camera, the two main reasons are:

(1) The lack of lenses I need now for the camera. I have waited months for the 30mm and, of course, probably will would have waited for the announced 120mm Macro, as well. This is summer, and now is the time I need those lenses. As a close-up photographer, neither the 45mm or 90mm can get me close enough, especially since there are no extensions available.

(2) And secondly, having very carefully done hundreds of test shots for overall sharpness, I am, despite what others say, disappointed with the degree and kind of sharpness I can attain with the X1D system and their lenses. Please donít ask me to prove this. Itís just my opinion.

No one is more sorry than I am, and perhaps selling this system is a stupid thing to do. I lose a bunch of money. Or, is it that Iím hooked on the Nikon system and how the D810 works? I am not arguing that the D810 IQ is better than the X1D, but only that what I am able to get from the X1D is not worth what I have to put up with to get it. And, of course, there are all the great lenses I have that will never work on the X1D, but that is a minor thing.

And finally, for me and the work I do, the X1D is just not ready with what I need. I should have waited for perhaps the second edition. And, I can always get another copy, should an X2D comes out. Meanwhile, I will wait for the rumored 46 Mpx D820 and have to be happy with that. I have TRIED to love this system, but I canít get there from here.

I will say that the X1D haptics are extraordinary and that, if I wanted to afford what for me would basically be a $20k system, I would keep it. The system is easy to use and I love the touch-screen of the LiveView.

So, there you have it. I report this because I owe it to those who have read any of my other comments on this system. C'est la vie
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Michael Erlewine
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Lust4Life

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #133 on: May 18, 2017, 06:29:55 AM »

Could the issue of lacking sharpness you need be an issue with the particular lens only?
I have encountered several times in my life where the "same" lens but a different piece varies substantially between units.

Did you try a different copy of the same lens?

General Question to Posters:
Are any other owners of the lens finding it is not as sharp as they expected?


« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 06:44:56 AM by Lust4Life »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #134 on: May 18, 2017, 02:51:31 PM »

Hi Jack,

Many factors affecting sharpness. Focusing, tripod, MLU, shutter release, focusing, DoF, diffraction.

Once we get all that right, we may discuss lenses, formats and sensors.

Best regards
Erik


Could the issue of lacking sharpness you need be an issue with the particular lens only?
I have encountered several times in my life where the "same" lens but a different piece varies substantially between units.

Did you try a different copy of the same lens?

General Question to Posters:
Are any other owners of the lens finding it is not as sharp as they expected?

hcubell

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #135 on: May 18, 2017, 03:53:59 PM »


General Question to Posters:
Are any other owners of the lens finding it is not as sharp as they expected?

Not at all. However, if you just run the X1D files through LR/ACR using the default sharpening settings, you may not be impressed.

Here are the sharpening settings in LR/ACR that I found to be optimal for the X1D files:
Amount=60
Radius=.7
Detail=70

If I use Phocus, I would turn off sharpening completely and export a TIFF to PS and use Focus Magic at a Radius of 2 and an amount of 100%.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 06:13:28 PM by hcubell »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #136 on: May 18, 2017, 05:16:58 PM »

Not at all. However, if you just run the X1D files through LR/ACR using the default sharpening settings, you may not be impressed.

It is true that the dfault amount of sharpening of other converters, C1 Pro for instance, is twice higher than that of LR.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #137 on: May 18, 2017, 05:36:48 PM »

I wonder how many people even on this forum could name the full stops from f1.4 up?

Since every other one is irrational, I'd venture to say none of us could.

This is approximate:

1.4142135623731
2
2.82842712474619
4
5.65685424949238
8
11.3137084989848
16
22.6274169979695
32
45.2548339959391
64

 :)


Jim

Brad P

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #138 on: May 18, 2017, 06:23:02 PM »

I have a few additional observations and questions having had the X1D for a week.   First, like many, I am most impressed by the ergonomics and build quality.   It is a camera that you not only want to take with you, but show off.   Some part of the price I would pay for just the artistic quality of it. 

I have ran into a few issues where the menu/firmware seems to still have some bugs despite having upgraded camera and lens firmware.   Occasionally, when trying to adjust the aperture or shutter speed via the LCD, the camera freezes and flips back to the prior screen without  being able to make the adjustment. I simply turn the camera off and back on and it fixes the problem. A nuisance I will have faith will be solved with the next firmware update.   But if others could confirm they have the same problem it would give me peace of mind during my return period. 

The manual focusing experience is superb.  Long lens throw and pretty precise manual focus.   A slight bit of forward focus with the 90mm at low apertures, but knowing that one can compensate.  The lens was superb otherwise shooting at my charts.  I don't like the octagonal bokeh when the 90mm is wide open.  Hasselblad lens designers should take note of this complaint.   All in all though, it's an acceptable lens.  Diglloyd was right on the money in his reviews. 

One thing I am finding frustrating is there appears to be no way to display a histogram or highlight blinkies.  For landscape use this is almost unacceptable and forces exposure bracketing.   Does anyone know how to turn either function on or whether a firmware update with this might be forthcoming?  I read through the manual and did some Internet searches and it seems this is a current problem.

All in all, I think I like it more than the GFX I demoed two weeks ago.   They are quite different cameras, and it is a closer call then I imagined.   The build quality, haptics and manual focusing characteristics are making me inclined to keep the X1D.  The lack of highlight blinkies, wide open octangular bokeh and lack of lenses are giving me occasional second thoughts. 

Michael Ė sorry to see you go -- I hope you change your mind again and take it off of eBay!   Having said that, the 120 mm is now projected to start shipping in August and according to Hasselblad's website, so the Summer will be over then.   That will probably be my favorite lens too.  Why can't someone print some extension tubes in the meantime I don't know.  There's even a macro adapter available for the H lenses that I'd buy in a heartbeat.   
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Hasselblad X1D - First Impressions
« Reply #139 on: May 18, 2017, 06:42:10 PM »


Michael Ė sorry to see you go -- I hope you change your mind again and take it off of eBay!   Having said that, the 120 mm is now projected to start shipping in August and according to Hasselblad's website, so the Summer will be over then.   That will probably be my favorite lens too.  Why can't someone print some extension tubes in the meantime I don't know.  There's even a macro adapter available for the H lenses that I'd buy in a heartbeat.

I bought an older 120mm Macro and was planning to get that adapter, but the lens was so huge and heavy, that hanging it off an adapter made no sense to me at all. I sold the lens. I'm find, happy with my Nikon D810 and looking forward to the upgrade.
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Michael Erlewine
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