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Author Topic: Out-of-focus = ghosts??  (Read 2514 times)

Hening Bettermann

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Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« on: March 25, 2017, 04:46:22 PM »

Hi!

My Apo Lanthar 125 renders out-of-focus detail (fine branches) as ghosts (double images). The 2 attached 100% crops show the same area in 2 focus slices, one sharp, one out of focus. There was no/almost no wind, and the exposure time was 1/1250 sec.

I assume the lens is sick, or...?

Patricia Sheley

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Re: Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2017, 10:14:27 PM »

Hello Hening,

Several instances of a possibility here :


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Re: Voigtlander 125mm f/2.5 APO Lanthar

« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2016, 14:37:42 »



A fantastic lens that delivers both in technical quality (detail, free of aberrations) as well as aesthetic capabilities (pleasant rendering of OoF areas). Bought mine in December 2009, used in a box for 900 EUR. I sincerely can't see why anyone would sell this lens, it is every bit as good as the reviews written about it.

I am aware of the internal construction which makes it prone to loosening and disassembling itself, this was however in my case quite easy to prevent by having a local technician open it and replace the screws, it has worked flawlessly for the past 6 years and I have actively used it for shooting watches and jewellery for clients.


My first instinct though was heavy shutter release finger, or loose tripod or bracket attachment as it seems uni-directional.

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Hening Bettermann

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Re: Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2017, 03:44:34 AM »

Hi Patricia!

Thank you for your encouraging comment. So I will try to contact Voigtländer Germany and see if they can fix it.

No it was neither heavy release finger nor loose bracket. I use infrared shutter release. The tripod was loaded down with my day pack. And the problem is present on the image shown, on the same subject in portrait orientation, and on another subject shot the same day - I don't think I overlooked a loose attachment in all 3 cases...

There is fine weather today again, and I'll give the subject another try with an Oly 135 which I happen to have ...

Thanks again!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 06:36:53 PM by Hening Bettermann »
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2017, 07:19:44 AM »

Hi!

My Apo Lanthar 125 renders out-of-focus detail (fine branches) as ghosts (double images). The 2 attached 100% crops show the same area in 2 focus slices, one sharp, one out of focus. There was no/almost no wind, and the exposure time was 1/1250 sec.

I assume the lens is sick, or...?

Hi Hening,

I would suspect some optical realignment might be required, although I do not know how that lens performs when in 'perfect' condition. That is because the double contours are a more or less common phenomenon with some lens designs. It is broadly known as "Spurrious resolution".

Also, depending on the optical design, front bokeh and rear bokeh can have rather different looks.

Cheers,
Bart
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Hening Bettermann

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Re: Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2017, 06:35:34 PM »

Hi Bart!

Thank you for chiming in - even though in this case it dampens the hope that Patricia lit in me. If this is in fact a side effect of the lens design, it means that I have waisted about 2.000 Euro :-(  I can hardly imagine it is true. Apo Lanthars have been around for a while, and I have never heard about this. OTOH, why was this highly estimated lens discontinued? Well there can be many, more innocent reasons for this. We will see what Voigtländer says...

A little consolation: I was able to re-shoot that "Jackson-Pollock-willow", as I have dubbed it by myself, with the 135 Zuiko. And while the Zuiko is not as sharp as the AL, it does at least not suffer from spurious resolution...

Thanks again, and good light!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 06:48:26 PM by Hening Bettermann »
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2017, 06:39:31 PM »

Hi Bart!

Thank you for chiming in - even though in this case it dampens the hope that Patricia lit in me. If this is in fact a side effect of the lens design, it means that I have waisted about 2.000 Euro :-(  I can hardly imagine it is true.

I'm not sure either, so let's see what Voigtländer have to say. Maybe an adjustment is all that's needed.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 06:42:09 AM by BartvanderWolf »
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degrub

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Re: Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2017, 08:24:47 PM »

Hi Bart!

Thank you for chiming in - even though in this case it dampens the hope that Patricia lit in me. If this is in fact a side effect of the lens design, it means that I have waisted about 2.000 Euro :-(  I can hardly imagine it is true. Apo Lanthars have been around for a while, and I have never heard about this. OTOH, why was this highly estimated lens discontinued? Well there can be many, more innocent reasons for this. We will see what Voigtländer says...

A little consolation: I was able to re-shoot that "Jackson-Pollock-willow", as I have dubbed it by myself, with the 135 Zuiko. And while the Zuiko is not as sharp as the AL, it does at least not suffer from spurious resolution...

Thanks again, and good light!

i have heard that they started making lenses for Ziess at about that time.

Did you have the mirror locked up  ?
Adapted mount or native ?

i have not noticed this on any of my Lanthars (Nikon mount Novoflex adapted to M4/3).
Frank
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Rob C

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Re: Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2017, 02:28:12 PM »

This intrigues me: I noticed a similar effect with a totally dfferent type of lens - my Nikkor 8/500 reflex. And with OOF shrubbery, as in the snap enclosed.



I bought this lens - for the second time, after a period spent totally with 6x7 format - and obviously expected I'd always get the doughnuts in appropriate lighting situations. Parallels were something that came at me quite out of left field!

This is one reason why I tend to prefer to disregard the 'sciences' of photography and keep it simple, and just use cameras to the best of my ability, letting lenses do their thing, expecting not too much and not too little. It's an art, for heaven's sake; we shouldn't expect perfect predictabilty unless in a studio after running tests in identical set-ups!

Rob

Hening Bettermann

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Re: Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2017, 02:43:35 PM »

Hi Frank!

My camera is the a7r2, so no mirror. The AL is in Olympus OM mount - the same as I used for the Zuiko. And note that the ghosts are only in the out-of focus areas.

Good to read that you have not observed this on your Apo Lanthars. This gives me hope that it is a fault with this particular lens, and that it MAY be cured by re-alignment. If it was inherent in the Apo Lanthar lens design, it would mean that my AL 180 is a waist as well! (I have not yet used it).

Good light!

Hening Bettermann

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Re: Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2017, 02:54:03 PM »

Hi Rob!

Yes mirror lenses are understandably a case of their own. - Sure the technique and science is not for their own sake - but would you hang or maybe even buy a large print with the artifacts shown? It aggravates the situation, that what's out of focus in the single slices is not (supposed to be) oof in the final image, which would be a focus stack! Helicon mistakes the ghosts for the real thing.

Good light!

NancyP

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Re: Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2017, 10:54:42 AM »

What is the subject matter?

I haven't seen this double outline with my copy (Canon mount). I have been delighted with mine. I am just hoping that it keeps communicating with Canon bodies. That's the disadvantage of Canon EF mount - no physical diaphragm on lenses.
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degrub

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Re: Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2017, 11:08:07 AM »

Hi Frank!

My camera is the a7r2, so no mirror. The AL is in Olympus OM mount - the same as I used for the Zuiko. And note that the ghosts are only in the out-of focus areas.

Good to read that you have not observed this on your Apo Lanthars. This gives me hope that it is a fault with this particular lens, and that it MAY be cured by re-alignment. If it was inherent in the Apo Lanthar lens design, it would mean that my AL 180 is a waist as well! (I have not yet used it).

Good light!
Have you tried shooting across the full range of aperture to verify if it is a DOF effect as mentioned ?

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Hening Bettermann

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Re: Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2017, 04:01:19 PM »

Hi Frank,
no I have only shot at f/8, but a series of shots with different focus, intended for focus stacking, so it is a DOF effect, I think.

Hening Bettermann

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Re: Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2017, 08:02:41 PM »

Voigtländer Germany gave me 2 options: sending the lens to Japan, or to a local (german) repair service. I chose the latter. Today the lens came back - with the diagnosis, that it is OK! So it seems that Bart was right with the spurious resolution. :-(

Nancy, I see that I failed to answer your question about the subject matter. Here is a link to the completed (stacked) image shot with the 135mm Zuiko. Jpeg 10% quality, 2.6 MB; just to give an impression.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wp7adcr9d41u62p/Jackson%20Pollock%20Willow.jpg?dl=0

Good light!

muntanela

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Re: Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2017, 04:43:09 PM »

Also my Leica R 100 apo macro shows some double-edging in out of focus fine objects (e.g. the needles of the larches), but only at wide apertures, wider than f/5.6.
I found this photo, although the phenomenon here is less evident, perhaps the aperture wasn't very wide. (There was also wind, and focusing was difficult).
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 04:46:14 PM by muntanela »
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Hening Bettermann

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Re: Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2017, 06:09:59 PM »

Hi Muntanela,
thanks for your post. - Your image does not open (enlarge) when clicked. Maybe it exceeds the forum size limit?

muntanela

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Re: Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2017, 05:58:31 AM »

Hi Muntanela,
thanks for your post. - Your image does not open (enlarge) when clicked. Maybe it exceeds the forum size limit?

Hi Hening,
I don't think it exceeds the limits, it is less than  two MB, the limit is 4MB, if I am right.
I can see it enlarged. (Sometimes it happened that I couldn't open an attached image).
Btw, I have read somewhere (here and here http://slrlensreview.com/web/reviews/leica-lenses/leica-macro/418-leica-apo-macro-elmarit-r-100mm-f28-leica-apo-macro-elmarit-r-100mm-f28-e60-lens-review, both in the "Field Tests" paragraph) that double edges in out of focus objects are typical of lenses with an over correction for spherical aberration, but I don't know more than this, and indeed it's referred to out of focus highlights.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 06:22:20 AM by muntanela »
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Hening Bettermann

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Re: Out-of-focus = ghosts??
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2017, 07:38:05 AM »

Thanks for these informative links, muntanela. - BTW, I can open your image now - just had to wait a little longer...
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