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Author Topic: What actually happens during Calibration?  (Read 3912 times)

opgr

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2017, 05:56:53 PM »

You are perhaps adding to the confusion. The ICC profile comes from the characterization, not the calibration, though the same software handles both.

It says: The calibration software creates a small file called an ICC profile

The software is generally known as calibrationsoftware, and its result is an ICC profile. What's the problem?

 
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Oscar

Mark D Segal

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2017, 06:02:24 PM »

It says: The calibration software creates a small file called an ICC profile

The software is generally known as calibrationsoftware, and its result is an ICC profile. What's the problem?

OK, not to start a whole big deal on semantics, but it's generally known as profiling software, which for displays has two components: calibration followed by profiling (characterization). The ICC profile results most directly from the profiling stage, which first requires setting the parameters (characterization).
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aaron125

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2017, 06:07:02 PM »

No idea which software package you're referring to there but it's somewhat messed up when it comes to the boundaries of what it should be doing and the terminology being used.

Perhaps that's another very important factor with which people in general seem to have such great difficulty is comprehending the fact that if one changes a single word in a sentence, then to a computer or support technician (a field in which I've worked for about 15 years, on and off) the sentence can, and almost always will, have an entirely different meaning. Most people tend to not say exactly what they mean and also don't mean *exactly* what they say. I always Rd to do the exact opposite so that there's no point trying to read between the lines as there is nothing to be found.


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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2017, 06:27:31 PM »

Since we can't see the color of white light according to the chosen D65/6500K green/magenta variant, the measuring instrument measures and defines what that color is and tweaks sections of each RGB curve (on the 8 bit video card or 10bit display LUT) to neutralize according to the color of white throughout the entire black to white gray scale.

This is calibrating to a standard (not a standard that matches any real daylight except as defined by what the colorimeter sees and compares against D65/6500K standard). Most modern display's white out of the box are pretty close to the D65/6500K standard at least it was for my LG 27" as measured at the factory by a $10,000 Minolta Color Analyzer, a much more precise instrument than an X-rite colorimeter.

Now that the neutrality of the entire RGB grayscale combo is established by those small tweaks to the curves the measuring instrument measures what those tweaks do to a number of individual color patch targets and builds an ICC profile describing the slight variances which the color management systems uses to render profile tagged image previews.
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opgr

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2017, 06:37:57 PM »

Well, OP is distinctly calling it "calibration" in his post, and I have no problem with his choice of words or with comprehending his question.

What do you guys call a "calibratorpuck" these days?


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scyth

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2017, 07:07:24 PM »

What do you guys call a "calibratorpuck" these days?
if it is a "puck" shaped then it is most probably а colorimeter (spectrometers tend to have a different shape in real life)... colorimeters do not measure spectrum (they like a digital camera with CFA in front of a sensor have 3-4+ colored filters) and hence require correction matrices for each monitor/LCD panel type to account for various spectrum emitted = those matrices either supplied with calibration/characterization software or DIY built if you have a spectrometer or software must be able to extract them either from device or from monitor itself - absent either of these 3 options your "puck" can't be properly used... example = wide gamut monitors and ancient colorimeters (where the OEM software did not have any proper matrices to account for spectrum from CCFLs or *LEDs used to achive gamut above ~sRGB)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 07:11:28 PM by scyth »
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2017, 07:52:55 PM »

All clear now, Rob?

;-)
Hi Rob,

This whole discussion reminds me of what the father of one of my childhood friends said when asked how an automobile works.
His answer wa, "Your pour water in the front and gasoline in the back and they mix in the middle and make the car go."

 :D

Eric
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Mark D Segal

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2017, 08:01:46 PM »

Beautiful Eric!  :)
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2017, 09:17:22 PM »

Beautiful Eric!  :)
My personal variant having more to do with calibration is: "I wave the Munki around my monitor and it makes the colors come out better."   ;)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2017, 09:26:19 PM »

Indeed - periodically we need to take an irreverent view of all this stuff - can drive one crazy otherwise! But when serious is serious, good materials properly used produce reliably good results. Right? (I hope.)
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aaron125

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2017, 09:26:54 PM »

The main thing is whatever works


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Rob C

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2017, 05:32:57 AM »

Hi Rob,

This whole discussion reminds me of what the father of one of my childhood friends said when asked how an automobile works.
His answer wa, "Your pour water in the front and gasoline in the back and they mix in the middle and make the car go."

 :D

Eric


That's what I liked about film photography: it worked at that level of need of understanding; you had no need to understand why, just how!

But my problems run deep: I have no 11-year-old neighbours - at the moment I have no neighbours at all. The holIday season starts around Easter. So consulting an expert will have to wait. But even then, being older, my experts will generally know less, and by the time they reach my age, they will know nothing at all. I believe that Mr Leiter reached that conclusion first.

Rob

Rob C

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2017, 05:43:34 AM »

Well, OP is distinctly calling it "calibration" in his post, and I have no problem with his choice of words or with comprehending his question.

What do you guys call a "calibratorpuck" these days?


Well thank goodness for that! Hanging on to sanity in a relative vacuum is not an easy daily task; a lesser man than myself would have given up years ago.

The thing is basic, though: Windows screws about and prevents my previous calibrating 'device'(?) from connecting with the later computer with the later Windows, for which I can blame, directly, neither LaCie's monitor nor their calibrating 'device'.

I do have to wonder, though, whether or not Windows and the puck-makers are all in collusion to sell more units. What else could they possibly have to talk about with one another during their lunch hours in the shiny glass and steel temples?

Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2017, 10:14:23 AM »

I thought the technical term for "device" was "thingy."
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aaron125

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2017, 10:15:15 AM »

Just a thought, but if your previous colorimeter (puck?) doesn't connect, how do you come to the conclusion that a new colorimeter will either a)be able to connect or b)solve the problem? Without explaining exactly what you mean by "windows screws about" how you've determined that windows is actually preventing "previous calibration device (what is "previous" about your device?)" then, what is a "later computer"? and which version of windows is "the later windows" about which you mention?

I'm completely perplexed by all of this as I've never ever had any problems ever connecting at least 1/2 a dozen or more individual devices, spectrophotometers, colorimeters, etc, from connecting to any computer I've built or worked on (I must have personally built, from an empty computer case to a fully functional and *all* peripheral devices working exactly as they should computers, in the past 20 years, maybe 200-300 or more individual computers, both for my own use, for sale to retail customers and supplied with standard 12 month warranties (so they HAVE to work as intended as we would lose serious amounts of revenue by having to troubleshoot and determine exactly what is causing the customer's problems and supply them with a fully functioning and working computer, and, finally, computers built for use in-house in companies ranging from about 5-20 employees and 1/2-2/3 that number of PCs to Victoria's largest call centre operator, where their network consisted of over 5000  individual PCs and employees and around 120 servers of almost every imaginable flavour.

But back to your issue, I can almost guarantee that no company which produces and/or designs colour measurement hardware works in "the shiny glass and steel temples". They'd have labs and huge open floor space setup with specific areas dedicated to hardware design, software design, various individual areas for designing specific aspects of said hardware and software, labs where they would test their own devices against their new products, test the new products against $100,000+ spectrophotometers and spectroradiometers, test their new devices against there competition's devices and so on.

And Microsoft, I'd imagine, couldn't care less about colour management and the companies involved, even though they were at one time (and possibly still are one of the companies who contribute to and create the various ICC specifications for all areas colour management) part of the initial committee who created the first ICC profile specifications but regardless, being that Bill is still one of the wealthiest persons on the planet, I very much doubt that he or his company really care about a tiny, very specific industry, of which Bill's company has very little interaction even through their hundreds of products they sell as it would be a minuscule contribution to his bottom line profit.

Honestly, it's really not very difficult to get almost any half decently designed hardware and drivers/software to work with one's computer. There are certain steps which must be performed, often in a specific order, to allow one device or many devices to work with one or many PCs and OS versions.

If you need help, please be specific and elaborate on every detail and exactly when the problem arose, exactly what you were doing before it happened, how long it was since the device was last used, etc. Without such information, anyone who gives you advice would have to be guessing because you've not given any actual detail as to just exactly what the problem even is or what device you're referring to.

I'm not trying to talk down to you, so please, please do  not think that I am. It's just that in IT technical support of any flavour, exact detail of the issue at hand is required to solve the problem as quickly and painlessly as possible.

Please start a new thread regarding your issue and I'll certainly do my best to try and solve the prblem


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elolaugesen

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2017, 10:31:12 AM »

I also have two EIZO CGs, a 301 and 318.  I use Colornavigator and disabled the X-Rite monitor profile management. I also run 30 bits on the 318.

Thank you Doug.   I was hoping that was what you would say. 

cheers elo
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Rob C

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2017, 11:37:44 AM »

Just a thought, but if your previous colorimeter (puck?) doesn't connect, how do you come to the conclusion that a new colorimeter will either a)be able to connect or b)solve the problem? Without explaining exactly what you mean by "windows screws about" how you've determined that windows is actually preventing "previous calibration device (what is "previous" about your device?)" then, what is a "later computer"? and which version of windows is "the later windows" about which you mention?

I'm completely perplexed by all of this as I've never ever had any problems ever connecting at least 1/2 a dozen or more individual devices, spectrophotometers, colorimeters, etc, from connecting to any computer I've built or worked on (I must have personally built, from an empty computer case to a fully functional and *all* peripheral devices working exactly as they should computers, in the past 20 years, maybe 200-300 or more individual computers, both for my own use, for sale to retail customers and supplied with standard 12 month warranties (so they HAVE to work as intended as we would lose serious amounts of revenue by having to troubleshoot and determine exactly what is causing the customer's problems and supply them with a fully functioning and working computer, and, finally, computers built for use in-house in companies ranging from about 5-20 employees and 1/2-2/3 that number of PCs to Victoria's largest call centre operator, where their network consisted of over 5000  individual PCs and employees and around 120 servers of almost every imaginable flavour.

But back to your issue, I can almost guarantee that no company which produces and/or designs colour measurement hardware works in "the shiny glass and steel temples". They'd have labs and huge open floor space setup with specific areas dedicated to hardware design, software design, various individual areas for designing specific aspects of said hardware and software, labs where they would test their own devices against their new products, test the new products against $100,000+ spectrophotometers and spectroradiometers, test their new devices against there competition's devices and so on.

And Microsoft, I'd imagine, couldn't care less about colour management and the companies involved, even though they were at one time (and possibly still are one of the companies who contribute to and create the various ICC specifications for all areas colour management) part of the initial committee who created the first ICC profile specifications but regardless, being that Bill is still one of the wealthiest persons on the planet, I very much doubt that he or his company really care about a tiny, very specific industry, of which Bill's company has very little interaction even through their hundreds of products they sell as it would be a minuscule contribution to his bottom line profit.

Honestly, it's really not very difficult to get almost any half decently designed hardware and drivers/software to work with one's computer. There are certain steps which must be performed, often in a specific order, to allow one device or many devices to work with one or many PCs and OS versions.

If you need help, please be specific and elaborate on every detail and exactly when the problem arose, exactly what you were doing before it happened, how long it was since the device was last used, etc. Without such information, anyone who gives you advice would have to be guessing because you've not given any actual detail as to just exactly what the problem even is or what device you're referring to.

I'm not trying to talk down to you, so please, please do  not think that I am. It's just that in IT technical support of any flavour, exact detail of the issue at hand is required to solve the problem as quickly and painlessly as possible.

Please start a new thread regarding your issue and I'll certainly do my best to try and solve the prblem


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Hi Aaron,

"Talking down" to me is not a problem (for me): I have almost no understanding of computers and never imagine that I will reach a state of grace where I will have! They scare the hell out of me!

No need for a new thread: this one was started explicitly in the hope of solving my problem. Which is as follows:

I bought a new LaCie monitor some years ago (LaCie 319) and bundled with it came a LaCie blue eye pro that says, on the front of its box:

Automatic hardware calibration for LaCie 300 Series Monitors
Timesaving test & report module
One-click colorimetric environment switching

On the rear of the box it says:

An essential complement to LaCie 300 Series Monitors, the LaCie blue eye pro is a single-click hardware calibration and ICC profiling solution designed for the most demanding graphics professionals. Organized around a simple yet effective monitor calibration flow, it also offers the complete set of functions that professionals expect.

Complete Calibration and profiling Tool
Automatic calibration to target gamma, white point temperature & brightness
Match your monitor calibration to another reference monitor
Manually fine-tune your profile to reach more pecise results

Test & Report Module
Extensively verify the accuracy of your profile
Save gamut measurement & Delta-Es in PDF, HTML or text reports

Advanced Features
Switch between colorimetric environments without recalibrating
Ambient light analysis
Matrix or LUT profiling
Choice of ICC v2 or v4 profiling
Blackpoint adjustment, chromatic adaptation

It goes on to state in a corner of the box:

LaCie blue eye pro seamlessly integrates with ColorSync and applications such as Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign and QuarkXPress.
....................

With it come two CDs.

The first one is called LaCie Color Utilities
blue eye pro. verison 4

Windows: blue eye pro software installer for Windows XP and Windows 2000

Mac: blue eye pro installer for Mac OS X

..........................

The second CD is:
300 Series LCD Monitor
Utilities CD-ROM

Macintosh and Windows Compatible
blue eye pro Calibration Software
Monitor ICC Profiles
Drivers. User Manuals
...........................

Now, this setup was originally used when I installed it into my Windows XP computer, which I still have, works, but I no longer use. I had no problems using it to do its job with that old computer.

My troubles began when I bought a new, more powerful computer with Windows 8.1.

As I remember it at the time, I tried to install the CDs and nothing happened. I E-mailed LaCie as well as Windows, and if memory serves, LaCie simply suggested the two were now incompatible and Windows didn't even reply.

From the details I've offered, which is all I have apart from the Quick Install Guide, if you think there's something I can try, even perhaps the order in which I should attempt again to install the CDs, I'd be very happy to follow the advice!

But just to touch on this 'talking down' thing: I think that it works in the opposite direction sometimes: experts assume far too much knowledge on the part of the person with the question! Of course, I understand there's a delicate line between a client who knows something about the topic and may take offence if you oversimplify, but in things of this nature I am usually to be found in the innocents enclosure.

;-(

Rob

P.S. The 'device' is what I imagine is meant by a puck: it resembles an ultra-streamlined Weston Master exposure meter that is hung in front of the sceen against a target area that runs the gamut of white, colours and so on during the process.

P.P.S. My system: MS Windows 8.1 64-bit6, Intel Core i5 - 4570 CPU @ 3.20 GHz, 8.0GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 11:49:09 AM by Rob C »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2017, 02:05:21 PM »

Rob,

"Windows" is of course Microsoft - that's who should have replied. But you were correct to approach LaCie because Microsoft will not necessarily be aware of the compatibility of every single device out there from one version of Windows to the next; but is annoying when these companies just don't respond. The important question in this respect is whether the LaCie service rep told you about an upgrade path for the software. Normally, but not always, one would find that the device vendor updates their software to remain compatible with the evolution of computer operating systems. So step one is to find out - perhaps easiest on the LaCie website - whether they would have a newer version of the various software components allowing you to update the software and carry on as before. Microsoft has been pretty good about maintaining backward compatibility of their ICM (colour management module) from one version of windows to the next, but not all device manufacturers necessarily update their software to be compliant with updated OSs.

Now, if LaCie does not offer up-graded software for their colorimeter, it is possible that a third-party calibration/profiling vendor such as BasicColor does support it in their application. You could check their website should that become necessary.
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Rob C

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2017, 02:53:14 PM »

Thanks, Mark; I'll have another look at the LaCie website. I have not been back for a couple of years, so it is possible that they did do something to change the situation some time after I fell foul of it. Thanks, too for the BasicColor name: I didn't know about the company.

On printing: I had a brief look at my old HP B 9180 black/white prints the other day, on heavy Hanne. paper, and they were quite beautiful to see there, in their nice polyester archival sleeves... I wasn't actually feeling nostalgic as I've given myself another project - I was just looking for a file number I couldn't trace but that I knew had been written on the back of one of those prints.

Thanks again,

Rob

aaron125

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Re: What actually happens during Calibration?
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2017, 03:32:48 PM »

Do you have the ability to reinstall Windows, or have someone you know help you perform a reinstall? Preferably windows 7, 64bit or windows 10, 64bit. Windows 8 and 8.1 are somewhat similar in status to that of windows vista, on that for some years, windows xp, x64 (that means 64bit, x86 is 32bit) performed far better in gaming, photoshop benchmarks, various encoding/decoding benchmarks and the like. It even outperformed widows 7 for some months after the initial release of windows 7.

This is similarly true of windows 8/8.1. In fact, there was such an uproar and so many complaints and support calls from windows 8 users that many simply went back to windows 7 and stuck with it until windows 10 came out and many still do use widows 7, by preference over windows 10. I'm one of those users, I actually quite dislike the myriad changes to parts of the GUI which had stated the same or changed extremely little since windows 2000 and windows xp. That's a good 7-10 years of knowing exactly where to go to perform certain tasks that in windows 8/10 have, for seemingly no logical reason whatsoever, actually, the changes are really quite illogical and nonsensical, to say the least. These changes are very similar to the way Microsoft changed the extremely familiar layout of literally hundreds of commands and settings in office 2013. These things had been unchanged since, very likely office 97 or 2000. There is no reason to have made these changes and actually served to alienate their customers, who have simply decided to stick with office 2010 as there are very few updates that improve anything at all for the massive majority of microsoft's installed user base.

I'm just trying to elaborate upon my reason for advocating your reinstall to be windows 7 x64, but if you actually prefer the windows 10 layout and design, by all means, go for it. Just get away from windows 8/8.1 if at all possible.

And I'd say that there would definitely have been many updates to Lacie's software and drivers compared to those on the CDs you mentioned. I actually almost never even bother using the CDs provided with any hardware I use as it's always several updates behind whatever is the latest on a company's website. This is due to the lead time needed to produce the CDs, package the hardware, ship it to various parts of the world, get it on shelves and into the hands of retail customers.

The best part of reinstalling windows from an actual widows installation disc, definitely not the repair partitions which are now provided with almost all new computers because there is just SO MUCH unnecessary and useless software which is installed, and the user has just about zero ability to completely remove all traces of said software due to my initial comments on the lack of reliable uninstall procedures (and the subsequent huge number of so-called 'super-thorough uninstalling applications).

This might be a lot to take in but you'd be very surprised by how much more responsive your most used applications and parts of windows will work without all the left-over rubbish tying them down and unneeded processes stealing your cpu's time.

I'm more than happy to help in any way possible.


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