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Author Topic: London  (Read 17408 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: London
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2017, 07:50:13 pm »

Funny old world; we, non-Americans, can say what we like about America and its guns, but heaven forbid we get any of the same logic back at us....

Amen, Rob!

Within seconds of a terrorist or lunatic attack in the States, a new thread will pop up on this very site from abroad, where the first comment would be "OMG, when are you Americans going to come to your senses and ban all guns!?"

It seems that a moral outrage or righteous indignation is the standard knee-jerk reaction these days to inconvenient truths.

Farmer

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Re: London
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2017, 08:02:37 pm »

The guy with the knife was shot dead by police who were on the scene.  So, what's the query about arming police at appropriate locations?

For those who just assume that there are no cops with guns in the UK, you need to do a little reading.  Area cars, armed response units, SO19, and so on.  The average beat cop isn't carrying a gun and historically (including now) has no need for one, but there are plenty of armed cops in the UK, particularly at sensitive locations.

Also note that there is no posse comitatus in the UK.  UK military forces (i.e. SAS) can and are used to respond to serious incidents as required.

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Phil Brown

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: London
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2017, 08:08:13 pm »

That's what happens when you elect a Muslim mayor, who's first order of business is to ban bikinis, and who said that such attack are normal and to better get used to it.

Alan Klein

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Re: London
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2017, 08:14:41 pm »

So the parliamentarians were hiding under their desks while the Muslim terrorist was killing people right outside.  PM May who was there, had to be rushed backed under guard to the PM's residence.  I wonder if any of them changed their mind about Trump's travel ban and strong vetting concept?  Do they still call him a bigot?  They all laughed at him and said they wouldn't let him come to parliament.  Frankly, considering how secure the Brits keep the place, the Secret Service won't let him go. 

Alan Klein

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Re: London
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2017, 08:18:03 pm »

The guy with the knife was shot dead by police who were on the scene.  So, what's the query about arming police at appropriate locations?

For those who just assume that there are no cops with guns in the UK, you need to do a little reading.  Area cars, armed response units, SO19, and so on.  The average beat cop isn't carrying a gun and historically (including now) has no need for one, but there are plenty of armed cops in the UK, particularly at sensitive locations.

Also note that there is no posse comitatus in the UK.  UK military forces (i.e. SAS) can and are used to respond to serious incidents as required.


But the one cop who was killed by a man with a knife did not have a gun.  Had he been armed, he might be alive today.  What do you tell his family? 

Robert Roaldi

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Re: London
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2017, 09:47:13 pm »

But the one cop who was killed by a man with a knife did not have a gun.  Had he been armed, he might be alive today.  What do you tell his family?

I'm wasting my time, I know, responding to this little bit of illogic, but what do YOU say to the thousands and thousands of americans killed by guns. It's a puzzle to me, because to listen to you, none of you sound like you ever feel safe, so what could is all the guns doing you? If anything, reading some of the stuff on these pages, americans sound positively paranoid about their safety. I hope things aren't really that bad.
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Robert

Farmer

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Re: London
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2017, 12:03:51 am »

So the parliamentarians were hiding under their desks while the Muslim terrorist was killing people right outside.  PM May who was there, had to be rushed backed under guard to the PM's residence.  I wonder if any of them changed their mind about Trump's travel ban and strong vetting concept?  Do they still call him a bigot?  They all laughed at him and said they wouldn't let him come to parliament.  Frankly, considering how secure the Brits keep the place, the Secret Service won't let him go.

They were in lock down - not hiding.  One MP on the street was providing first aid and trying to save the cop who was knifed - he had blood all over him.  The PM was moved to a place of safety exactly as would happen to PotUS in such an event.

The security of the MPs and government wasn't breached any more than someone firing at the White House (which has happened more than once).
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Phil Brown

Farmer

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Re: London
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2017, 12:07:27 am »

But the one cop who was killed by a man with a knife did not have a gun.  Had he been armed, he might be alive today.  What do you tell his family?

Having a gun means nothing - he pushed passed another member of the public and just launched with the knife.  Having a gun doesn't stop someone doing that and doesn't make you prescient to know that someone is about to do that.  The armed police then shot him.

If having guns stop attacks, how did 9/11 happen?  How come more cops in the US die as a percentage than in the UK (but a massive amount)?

What a load of dribble.
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Phil Brown

BobShaw

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Re: London
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2017, 12:52:20 am »

Four people are dead. On behalf of everyone in Britain I would like to invite you over here so we can tell you to your stupid conceited face what we think of you and your post.
+1000
Please include almost every other country in the world.
30,000 Americans die each year shot by Americans, 10000 times more than died at Boston, but that's called freedom.
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jeremyrh

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Re: London
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2017, 02:03:21 am »

That's what happens when you elect a Muslim mayor, who's first order of business is to ban bikinis, and who said that such attack are normal and to better get used to it.

I think that's what we call "alternative facts" these days.
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drmike

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Re: London
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2017, 03:32:06 am »

That's what happens when you elect a Muslim mayor, who's first order of business is to ban bikinis, and who said that such attack are normal and to better get used to it.

I'm saddened that an intelligent, experienced man like yourself can come up with such a skewed interpretation of the mayor's comments. Maybe not so surprised as I understand the most commonly used source of UK news by US citizens is the Daily Mail, a dreadful rag if there ever was one.

Who remembers the IRA mainland bombing campaign? The fear was much worse then and our intelligence services learnt a lot from the troubles.

I think the real problem is dealing with weaponising the mundane and commonplace. It was a hire car I understand, not stolen but legally hired and legally driven to the attack site. Our network of cameras will no doubt be able to track its movements but which clairvoyant will advise of its threat and get armed police or indeed any police in place on the bridge?

This thread is once again in danger of consisting of entrenched views which is why I usually avoid them, but really some of the superficial Daily Mail (see, in the UK that's an insult) comments need to be called out.

As ever I am not trying to be gratuitously rude but just show dissent.

Mike
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fdisilvestro

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Re: London
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2017, 04:12:15 am »

My sympathy to those that have lost a loved one or have been injured in this tragic incident

jeremyrh

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Re: London
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2017, 04:16:33 am »

I'm saddened that an intelligent, experienced man like yourself can come up with such a skewed interpretation of the mayor's comments. Maybe not so surprised as I understand the most commonly used source of UK news by US citizens is the Daily Mail, a dreadful rag if there ever was one.

Apparently he was just re-hashing the words of Trump Junior:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/22/donald-trump-jr-tweet-london-mayor-sadiq-khan
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Alan Klein

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Re: London
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2017, 04:58:30 am »

I'll make a side bet with anyone that all cops around the Parliament building will be armed in the future.

drmike

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Re: London
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2017, 05:12:45 am »

Your point being? Armed guards at the gates would have in no way helped on the bridge where most of the carnage took place.

I'm not sure you're right, it will be interesting to see how it works out. We Brits do like our police to be as nonthreatening as possible so having a nice friendly Bobby is seen as important even if his mates nearby are armed to the teeth.

It's just different cultural norms, neither better nor worse just different.
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Alan Klein

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Re: London
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2017, 05:50:16 am »

What changes will the Brits make to protect themselves from further attacks?

Rob C

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Re: London
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2017, 05:58:09 am »

I'll make a side bet with anyone that all cops around the Parliament building will be armed in the future.


Don't bet: you could easily lose because to some minds, arming could appear to be submitting to threats! Britain, and London in particular, have had decades of violence and different forms of terrorism aimed their way; it's hardly new and yet the lessons remain doggedly "unlearned" not because they are not understood, but because of political dogma associated with the John Bull way of handling things.

(Partly, it might be associated with the observance of international rules, which is something that the Brits tend to do as governments, much to the surprise and even amusement of fellow Europeans who agree to every European rule but do their own thing regardless. Had the UK been as pragmatic, it might never have thought about Brexit and suicide. As the captains of industry tried to tell the lemmings, diving off the White Cliffs of Dover is not good for you. Did they listen? But now a huge number of City jobs is already on the move even before the red button has been touched. Anyone thinking that means only a few thousand highly-paid individuals is a little bit mistaken.)

I think that armed policemen should come in different stages: an initial lot with pistols that can be quickly pulled and discharged at close quarters - which might have saved that policeman's life - and the other type of weaponry, long-range stuff, that requires room to move, raise and aim, which strikes me as being about as useful for close combat as a rocket launcher. Not that I have a rocket launcher, of course. Carrying both arms seems silly, too, for I think being a quick-draw artist saddled with even an additional light burp gun on a strap isn't going to make you very responsive any day soon. (Just think of yourself as carrying two cameras, one hanging in front of your chest with a long lens on it, the other in a pouch at your belt, and the picture comes into focus, even if you miss making the once-in-your-lifetime shot, if you see what I mean.) As for the attack being uexpected, all people in the vicinity where a policeman is required should be viewed as possible attackers. Dozing on the job and complacency run hand in hand, if they run at all, that is; no, I am not stating the poor guy who was stabbed was dozing on the job.

But something in training is clearly wrong: it happens every day in Israel where armed security is attacked by knife and even by women; the level and reality of threat seems to be being overlooked in some way: are they all trained to be on the watch for people who resemble the targets on the range? Is the first flash of a diced headcloth key? I wonder if Texas border guards are trained to identify targets with black sombreros and moustaches?

drmike

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Re: London
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2017, 05:58:37 am »

What changes will the Brits make to protect themselves from further attacks?

Isn't that the point of such terrorist methods, there's little you can do apart from the obvious of being vigilant, improve your intelligence and encourage the whole community/population  to assist and bring suspicious activity to the authorities or community leaders? I doubt you'd achieve that by arming the police to the teeth and scapegoating minorities.

I just once again remind everyone of the IRA campaign - in the long run how effective was that?


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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: London
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2017, 06:37:25 am »

A sad and tragic event.

This is just one more reminder that terrorism cannot be stopped from happening, so the best we can do is try and prevent it as much from happening as reasonably possible without sacrificing our liberties. Its foundation is from nurturing hatred, by whatever radical ideology. So we should try and prevent the nurturing.

Too little is known at this point in time to be sure about the motivations of the assailant, but things like a Muslim ban on traveling to the USA certainly do not help, on the contrary (it only helps to stigmatize, nurture resentment, and recruit new terrorists, often homegrown).

Guns do not prevent terrorist attacks either, although they may stop one already in action. That's why armed and trained security personnel is unfortunately required. Arming the public is never a good idea, because it only leads to more casualties (like yesterday in Rothschild/Wisconsin, where 4 people were killed in a domestic disturbance, one of whom also a police officer, who was obviously armed. Sad).

My thoughts go out to the victims and their loved ones.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 09:36:54 am by BartvanderWolf »
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