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Author Topic: The Climate Change Hoax  (Read 116276 times)

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #160 on: March 30, 2017, 03:41:21 pm »

Dr. Fuhrman is just one of many who stands up against the established practices in the pharma industry.

Here are more facts:
In a June 2010 report in the Journal of General Internal Medicine, study authors said that in looking over records that spanned from 1976 to 2006 (the most recent year available) they found that, of 62 million death certificates, almost a quarter-million deaths were coded as having occurred in a hospital setting due to medication errors.

An estimated 450,000 preventable medication-related adverse events occur in the U.S. every year.

The costs of adverse drug reactions to society are more than $136 billion annually -- greater than the total cost of cardiovascular or diabetic care.
Adverse drug reactions cause injuries or death in one of five hospital patients.

The reason there are so many adverse drug events in the U.S. is that so many drugs are used and prescribed – and many patients receive multiple prescriptions at varying strengths, some of which may counteract each other or cause more severe reactions when combined.
Yes, I'm well aware of this issue and spent a lot of hours while working at PhRMA on several initiatives to help solve it.  This is a multi-faceted problem with a lot of players.  We spent a lot of time working on getting bar codes on all doses of packaged medicines so that technology could be employed at the bedside of hospitals to make sure the patient received the right dose of medicine at the right time.  That was out part of the puzzle.  Similarly, pharmacists and physicians have to play their part to make sure that a drug is not prescribed and dispensed that might lead to an adverse drug-drug interaction.  This is particularly a problem with older adults who might be taking a variety of different medicines to manage various medical conditions.

Quote
According to the Journal of the American Medical Association, two-hundred and ninety people in the United States are killed by prescription drugs every day.
This includes opiates, benzodiazapines, and other drugs that are abused.  The opioid epidemic is well known and clearly this class of drugs is wildly over prescribed.

Quote
Conservative calculations estimate that approximately 107,000 patients are hospitalized annually for nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID)-related gastrointestinal (GI) complications and at least 16,500 NSAID-related deaths occur each year among arthritis patients alone. (Singh Gurkirpal, MD. Recent Considerations in Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug Gastropathy reported in The American Journal of Medicine, July 27, 1998) - and that's just aspirin
As you note, the 1998 paper is an estimate and the author has stated it was based on early 1990 data.  He said that the number today is much lower as those on long term NSAID therapy are given proton pump inhibitors to reduce the chance of GI bleed (http://www.medpagetoday.com/geriatrics/painmanagement/32971 ).  In addition there is a bolded warning on all NSAIDs (many of which are available over the counter) as well as a major education program by the FDA and others to educate patients that they should only use such products for short periods of time.    It's also instructive to note that there are large numbers of acetamnophen poisoning occurring every year because of acute liver toxicity.

I don't understand what your point is.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #161 on: March 30, 2017, 03:45:01 pm »

Yes, but why make such an exaggerated number? In fact you don't have to be a rich guy to get a Tesla model S and drive it. You can buy a nice second hand for $40-50.000 and have very low running costs on the level of mass market car.
Don't forget that the Tesla highend cars were there to begin with for a purpose. To lay the foundation for the model 3 which will begin product this year. The model 3 is $35.000 entry level car and with incentives (as long as they last) will be a mass market car. Is it not smart of Tesla to do it this way? Don't you think this have already woken up the entire car industry? It certainly has.
The other outcome from the Tesla research is more efficient batteries.  Such batteries could be used to store solar energy produced during the day for use at night.  I think they are building a huge battery manufacturing plant in Nevada.

The bottom line is there is government money being used to spur alternative energy research and there are tax preferences to help with its adoption.  One might not like either approach from a political point of view but I don't think that the private sector can do everything.  There has to be some cooperation.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #162 on: March 30, 2017, 04:22:32 pm »

The other outcome from the Tesla research is more efficient batteries.  Such batteries could be used to store solar energy produced during the day for use at night.  I think they are building a huge battery manufacturing plant in Nevada.

The bottom line is there is government money being used to spur alternative energy research and there are tax preferences to help with its adoption.  One might not like either approach from a political point of view but I don't think that the private sector can do everything.  There has to be some cooperation.
Leaving aside the economic pitfalls for the moment, the optics can be terrible. You got some poor schnook driving in a five-year old Camry that desperately needs a brake job to keep his family safe but that he can't afford to do, reading about some rich guy getting $7500 back on a brand new $50,000 Tesla.  Maybe the schnook should get a $500 check from the government so he can fix his brakes and make his family safe.  Why are we wasting $7500 on that rich guy.  Is he saving the planet? How many carbon emission went into manufacturing that Tesla?  In any case, Tesla would just lower the price if there was no rebate.  This is all crony capitalism where Tesla bribes politicians to support rebates.

Here's something you'd remember but that the young folks might not know.  The "Oil Depletion Allowance".  Back a few decades ago, oil companies like Exxon, Sunoco, Texaco, Mobil, and others were allowed to reduce their taxes based on oil depletion.  The concept was that since you're depleting the oil in a well, you won't be able to pump oil there forever.  So the government allowed the oil companies to reduce their taxes based on some depletion formula.  Of course the political crony capitalism on this changed when people realized that all the oil company had to do was build a new well somewhere else as there's really plenty of oil in the world and we're not running out of it.  Like rebates for electric cars and solar panels, it all sounded so good at the time but was just another ripoff of the taxpayer. 

LesPalenik

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #163 on: March 30, 2017, 04:24:08 pm »

Yes, I'm well aware of this issue and spent a lot of hours while working at PhRMA on several initiatives to help solve it.  This is a multi-faceted problem with a lot of players.  We spent a lot of time working on getting bar codes on all doses of packaged medicines so that technology could be employed at the bedside of hospitals to make sure the patient received the right dose of medicine at the right time.  That was out part of the puzzle.  Similarly, pharmacists and physicians have to play their part to make sure that a drug is not prescribed and dispensed that might lead to an adverse drug-drug interaction.  This is particularly a problem with older adults who might be taking a variety of different medicines to manage various medical conditions.
This includes opiates, benzodiazapines, and other drugs that are abused.  The opioid epidemic is well known and clearly this class of drugs is wildly over prescribed.
As you note, the 1998 paper is an estimate and the author has stated it was based on early 1990 data.  He said that the number today is much lower as those on long term NSAID therapy are given proton pump inhibitors to reduce the chance of GI bleed (http://www.medpagetoday.com/geriatrics/painmanagement/32971 ).  In addition there is a bolded warning on all NSAIDs (many of which are available over the counter) as well as a major education program by the FDA and others to educate patients that they should only use such products for short periods of time.    It's also instructive to note that there are large numbers of acetamnophen poisoning occurring every year because of acute liver toxicity.

I don't understand what your point is.

My point is that many medications are not needed and often they are more harmful than beneficial.
Sometimes they are taken as self-medications, but often they are pushed upon patients by the doctors and the pharma industry. The related quotes I mentioned above are just a few from many readily available from the official sources. And if that is not a sufficient evidence, unnecessary and potentially dangerous pills were pushed on me personally and to several of my friends and family. All by licensed doctors.

BTW, I am not taking any medications, prescribed or over-the-counter, but unfortunately many people don't have time or motivation to find out the results of the latest studies on this subject, and keep consuming the toxic meds. Once I met a man who was prescribed 6 different medications after his heart attack, and he was actually pleased how well his doctor took care of him.

Google search "prescription drug death statistics" will yield 930,000 links. "death caused by medications" will show over 30 million links.
 
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #164 on: March 30, 2017, 04:53:36 pm »

Google search "prescription drug death statistics" will yield 930,000 links. "death caused by medications" will show over 30 million links.
Yes, and think of the countless millions of lives that are saved by antibiotics, vaccines, anti-hypertensives, cholesterol lowering agents, I could go on and on.  Everything is contextual. 
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #165 on: March 30, 2017, 04:56:32 pm »

You must have been advising Hillary.  Regulate the coal industry more so more of their jobs are lost.   Great strategy.

You're the one that mentioned job crushing marketplace forces by competing cheaper natural gas. That has nothing to do with Hillary and regulation. It's about cleaner and cheaper energy. So how are you going to know which ended the coal miner's jobs?
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Hans Kruse

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #166 on: March 30, 2017, 05:21:45 pm »

The other outcome from the Tesla research is more efficient batteries.  Such batteries could be used to store solar energy produced during the day for use at night.  I think they are building a huge battery manufacturing plant in Nevada.

The bottom line is there is government money being used to spur alternative energy research and there are tax preferences to help with its adoption.  One might not like either approach from a political point of view but I don't think that the private sector can do everything.  There has to be some cooperation.

Tesla produces batteries for storage and for the new model 3 together with Panasonic in the Gigafactory in Nevada. So it is in operation and being expanded as we speak tp produce 35Gwh of batteries per year when the factory is in full production. Tesla also has said that they will build a similar Gigafactory in Europe and in China.

Tesla has delivered storage products for the grid in Hawaii http://www.theverge.com/2017/3/8/14854858/tesla-solar-hawaii-kauai-kiuc-powerpack-battery-generator and in California https://arstechnica.com/business/2017/01/a-look-at-the-new-battery-storage-facility-in-california-built-with-tesla-powerpacks/

The current batteries for the Tesla model S and X are manufactured by Panasonic and shipped to the US from Japan. The price per Kwh has dropped to less than half since 2014 and the Gigafactory will further improve on that.

The government incentives are not given to Tesla as such. They are given to all EV's and also plugin hybrid cars. As mentioned the incentives will go away soon for Tesla and also for GM as they hit the 200.000 car limit in the US. They can only produce such cars competitively in high volume and I think the incentives reflect that as well as getting new technology going and we all want clean tech as well, right?

Hans Kruse

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #167 on: March 30, 2017, 05:30:21 pm »

Leaving aside the economic pitfalls for the moment, the optics can be terrible. You got some poor schnook driving in a five-year old Camry that desperately needs a brake job to keep his family safe but that he can't afford to do, reading about some rich guy getting $7500 back on a brand new $50,000 Tesla.  Maybe the schnook should get a $500 check from the government so he can fix his brakes and make his family safe.  Why are we wasting $7500 on that rich guy.  Is he saving the planet? How many carbon emission went into manufacturing that Tesla?  In any case, Tesla would just lower the price if there was no rebate.  This is all crony capitalism where Tesla bribes politicians to support rebates.

Here's something you'd remember but that the young folks might not know.  The "Oil Depletion Allowance".  Back a few decades ago, oil companies like Exxon, Sunoco, Texaco, Mobil, and others were allowed to reduce their taxes based on oil depletion.  The concept was that since you're depleting the oil in a well, you won't be able to pump oil there forever.  So the government allowed the oil companies to reduce their taxes based on some depletion formula.  Of course the political crony capitalism on this changed when people realized that all the oil company had to do was build a new well somewhere else as there's really plenty of oil in the world and we're not running out of it.  Like rebates for electric cars and solar panels, it all sounded so good at the time but was just another ripoff of the taxpayer.

You can't get a brand new Tesla for $50.000, but you can get a second hand one, but without getting a credit from the government. The incentive as I wrote is not just for high priced cars but for all EV's and plugin hybrid cars. How does that have anything to do with a poor guy not paying for brakes? That does not make any sense. So to repeat: The incentives are given to people who by a car from GM, Nissan, VW, BMW, Hunday, Volvo, etc. ....and Tesla! So stop this nonsense about a rich guy getting a credit for getting a Tesla. Btw. soon there will be expensive EV cars from Audi, Bently and Mercedez etc. and after there are no longer credits for Teslas, you will get a credit for these cars until they hit 200.000 of EV's per manufacturer. Some countries are capping the credits. Germany are capping the credits at 60.000 Euro in fact to not give the credit to a Tesla model S or X, but the model 3 will qualify as it will be under that limit.

So as you can see the whole thing is about giving incentives to ramp up mass production so that EV's can compete.

LesPalenik

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #168 on: March 30, 2017, 05:48:45 pm »

Yes, and think of the countless millions of lives that are saved by antibiotics, vaccines, anti-hypertensives, cholesterol lowering agents, I could go on and on.  Everything is contextual.

I am not against all medications, many of them save indeed millions of lives. All I'm saying that some medications are harmful, and many medications are prescribed needlessly, without doctors knowing their side effects or long term dangers. Many doctors keep practising the conventional "medicine" (albeit with new drugs) and don't have the slightest clue about healthy nutrition and how it affects human bodies.

I also believe that currently more medications are prescribed to increase profits for pharma industry than to help patients.

Before you accuse respectable scientists of being fools, maybe you heard of Ray Kurzweil, the famous futurist, writer, and inventor and recently hired by Google. He writes, "I was diagnosed with type II diabetes when I was 35 (1983). The conventional treatment (insulin) made it worse by causing me to gain weight. I then developed my own program based on nutrition, exercise, weight management, and supplements.   

Similar examples are quoted about succesful prevention or reversal of heart diseases, osteoarthristis, and various cancers. Regretably, but understandably, cases like these are being burried by millions of advertisements and promotions of dubious pharmaceutical products.

And maybe you've heard that even Aspirin would not gain FDA approval if it were introduced today.
 
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #169 on: March 30, 2017, 05:53:20 pm »

You're the one that mentioned job crushing marketplace forces by competing cheaper natural gas. That has nothing to do with Hillary and regulation. It's about cleaner and cheaper energy. So how are you going to know which ended the coal miner's jobs?
I don't recall saying "job crushing marketplace forces".  However, I do realize that other fuels are replacing coal.  Currently, coal and gas represent about a third each of the total fuel market.  So while jobs may not be increasing in coal, reducing regulation will help preserve jobs and slow down their loss. 

When you say "it's about cleaner and cheaper", that's contradictory.  Carbon (dirtier) fuels are cheaper than renewable (cleaner) fuels. 

It's going to take a while before all the coal burning plants are replaced.  It's extremely costly.  Which brings up a related personal story.  Back in 2000-2004, I was involved in managing the replacement of a portion of coal-fired boilers in 160 NYC public schools.  They heated the schools and  provided hot water for kitchens and bathrooms that still were using coal burning boilers to heat these schools.  The rest of the 1200 schools had already converted to oil or gas years earlier. 

When I got involved, I couldn't believe that buildings were still burning coal.  As a New Yorker, I remember coal furnaces in my building as a kid, but they were replaced in the 1950's with oil.  Yet schools were still using coal in 2000!!!.  No scrubbers or anything.  All that crap going up the chimney into neighborhood throughout NYC.  I handled around 35 of them from little public schools to very large multi burner high schools.  New gas burning hot water heaters were installed too.

It cost around $4-500 million to convert those boilers in the 160 schools to dual fuel burning boilers.  They'd burn gas until it got down to 18 degrees F.  Then they would automatically switch to oil so the gas companies would have enough gas supply for their private customers in the neighborhood.  During construction, we had to remove and dump tons and tons of coal, re-do coal bunkers, build new gas supply rooms and bring in new gas lines from the street.  We'd build 5000 to 10,000 gallon fuel tanks depending on the size of the schools needs in protected oil tank rooms.  Since the old boilers and associated piping were insulated with asbestos, major abatement had to be done.  Most of the asbestos got dumped in nearby Pennsylvania by licensed abatement companies.  Heck, NY didn't want it.  All construction was done while the schools were still in operation.  We had to put in temporary oil burning boilers on the street during construction and connect to the school's piping.  Dangerous work was done at night or on weekends when there were no kids around.

No one would believe me when I told them in 2001 that schools were still using coal.  In people-filled NYC.  The projects were really very fascinating and complex and I was very proud of the work we did.  So you see, I'm not all bad.  In fact,  I may have done more to clean-up the environment than anyone else here. If there are any experts here who know the calculations, here are the figures.  While there were 50hp to 300hp boilers (times two or three per building; one always as a back-up), for calculations, figure one 200hp burning 18 hours per day for a 7 month winter (figure 6 day week).  What's the savings in soot and other elements going into the atmosphere by switching from coal to gas?  Multiply that by the 35 schools I converted.   

Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #170 on: March 30, 2017, 05:59:34 pm »

...he incentive as I wrote is not just for high priced cars but for all EV's and plugin hybrid cars. How does that have anything to do with a poor guy not paying for brakes? That does not make any sense...
  The poor guy's taxes are going to the rich guy.  If his taxes were lower, he'd be able to buy brakes.  The Democrats couldn't see this issue either.  That's why Hillary lost.  Not because of the Russians. 

Hans Kruse

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #171 on: March 30, 2017, 06:04:42 pm »

  The poor guy's taxes are going to the rich guy.  If his taxes were lower, he'd be able to buy brakes.  The Democrats couldn't see this issue either.  That's why Hillary lost.  Not because of the Russians.

As I said the incentives are for the cars and irrespective of price. You have invented that this is for the rich guys only. If your concern are about the poor, there are many other ways they could be taken care of. First of all you could come an look at the Nordic countries in Europe which have a bit more social justice than the US.

Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #172 on: March 30, 2017, 06:15:06 pm »

As I said the incentives are for the cars and irrespective of price. You have invented that this is for the rich guys only. If your concern are about the poor, there are many other ways they could be taken care of. First of all you could come an look at the Nordic countries in Europe which have a bit more social justice than the US.
Yup.  That's why Hillary lost.

Hans Kruse

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #173 on: March 30, 2017, 06:22:39 pm »

Yup.  That's why Hillary lost.

Nope, that's why Sanders lost. The US not Northern Europe and vice versa. But your concern for the poor guy is ill placed in this context and still has nothing to do with EV incentives.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 06:26:02 pm by Hans Kruse »
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HSakols

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #174 on: March 30, 2017, 07:47:56 pm »

High literacy rates is the last thing Trump wants in the USA.  The dismanteling of the department of education will ensure this.  Already if you have a child with special needs in public school in the USA, you're screwed.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #175 on: March 30, 2017, 09:43:06 pm »

... we have made a huge mistake by spending trillions of dollars in switching from fossil fuels to renewables

Uh, say what?  A mistake to change from a limited resource to a renewable one?  Really? Your logic defies credibility.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #176 on: March 31, 2017, 12:08:56 am »

Uh, say what?  A mistake to change from a limited resource to a renewable one?  Really? Your logic defies credibility.

Peter,  You chopped Ray's sentence in half and misquoted him unfairly trying to deceive the readers. 

Here's Ray's original complete sentence:
"It then becomes apparent we have made a huge mistake by spending trillions of dollars in switching from fossil fuels to renewables instead of spending the same amount of money protecting ourselves from extreme weather events."

Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #177 on: March 31, 2017, 12:56:47 am »

Peter,  You chopped Ray's sentence in half and misquoted him unfairly trying to deceive the readers. 

Here's Ray's original complete sentence:
"It then becomes apparent we have made a huge mistake by spending trillions of dollars in switching from fossil fuels to renewables instead of spending the same amount of money protecting ourselves from extreme weather events."

Thanks Alan. I spent some time writing a clarification for Peter's benefit, then I noticed your post in my defense. Nevertheless, I'll post my clarification below.

The reason why many people are so alarmed at the possibility of a changing climate due to mankind's emissions of CO2 and other greenhouse gasses, or a change in climate which is at least exacerbated by such emissions, is because of a worry about the effects on our health, lifestyle and prosperity, that increasingly severe and more frequent extreme weather events could have, such as more prolonged droughts, hotter and drier conditions, more intense hurricanes, floods, and so on.

This concern is the main driving force behind the switch to renewables, although of course there are other benefits in the long term, such as avoiding an eventual scarcity of fossil fuels which would drive up prices. I agree we should also prepare for such an event before we run out of fossil fuels. I'm not against the development of alternative forms of energy.

The logic behind my argument is that one cannot spend the same money (or resources) twice. You either spend it on protecting people from extreme weather events, by building lots of dams, long-distance water pipes, desalination plants, stronger dwellings that can resist cyclones, elevated highways, and so on, or you spend the money subsidising the development of alternative energy supplies on the basis that reductions in CO2 emissions will reduce the frequency and severity of such extreme weather events, and that our climate will become more benign as a result of our leaving the fossil fuels in the ground.

If we get it wrong and discover that the natural driving forces of climate are much stronger than mankind's influence, then future generations could find themselves living in insecure homes exposed to increasingly extreme weather events. Food production could also diminish as a result of increasing shortages of water, and pandemonium could result.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #178 on: March 31, 2017, 04:31:14 am »

Your original post implied that I approved of going to war, killing people and wasting money based on lies.  That's mean-spirited and downright insulting as well as wrong.  I'm not responsible for what Mr. Blair and Mr. Bush claimed.  You should also be kinder to your own PM Mr. Barroso.  I assume he knew about as much as I did about the facts concerning Iraq.

My original post did not implied that, sorry if you understood it that way. You said "why should the climate change research be paid for by the American tax payer dunce"; I merely asked you if you felt the same way about "the American dunce tax payer" paying for a war based on lies. The implication being that, IMO, the latter is much more serious than the former.

Of course you are not responsible for what Mr. Blair and Mr. Bush claimed, but based on those claims (of which there was no evidence even at the time, in 2003), we know what ensued. But we are responsible for believing what they fed us. As for Mr. Barroso, he was very well aware of what was going on, I can assure you; a few months later he resigned his job as PM, to take on other more profitable roles (for him), while leaving the country in a political crisis.

We should learn from the mistakes of the past, but apparently we do not.

Hans Kruse

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #179 on: March 31, 2017, 05:35:17 am »

Peter,  You chopped Ray's sentence in half and misquoted him unfairly trying to deceive the readers. 

Here's Ray's original complete sentence:
"It then becomes apparent we have made a huge mistake by spending trillions of dollars in switching from fossil fuels to renewables instead of spending the same amount of money protecting ourselves from extreme weather events."

The real issue is that the countries of the world (not just the US) has to do both. Most people in the world live close to the sea and with rising sea levels the cities and land ned to be protected. Just like Holland has done for more than a century.

We also need to stop burning fossil fuels for at least three reasons: 1) To cut the emissions of CO2 and other gasses and particles. They are harmful for the climate and for man. 2) Fossil fuels don't last forever and they are often controlled by unreliable governments. 3) For economic reasons. With the cost curves for solar and wind in particular both are now competitive with fossil fuels without storage. When storage has reached the turning point which is predicted to be around 2022 solar and wind will outcompete fossil fuels. It will take quite a while, but it will happen for that simple reason. We will see an exponential growth because of the economic benefits and also that awareness about this will grow enormously when it has happened. We will see electric cord cutters en masse although I predict that governments will have to mandate that all houses are grid connected and pay for that even when no power is delivered from the grid. Power plants that today generate electricity and heat to houses through pipes will be replaced by heat pumps for the hot water. In my country (Denmark) the power plants have had this dual role for a long time now. The fuels have transitioned from coal to natural gas to wood pellets and bio fuels. In 2015 the breakdown for all Danish power plants (electricity and heating) were 48% renewables (wood and biological degradable waste), 12% not biological degradable waste, 20% coal, 1% oil and 19% natural gas (from the North Sea).  See here http://www.naturgasfakta.dk/copy5_of_miljoekrav-til-energianlaeg/kraftvarme-produktion or https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=da&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=da&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.naturgasfakta.dk%2Fcopy5_of_miljoekrav-til-energianlaeg%2Fkraftvarme-produktion&edit-text=&act=url and the transition continues.

One of the biggest on the market in Denmark DONG has stated "We are in the process of rebuilding a number of central power stations to burn wood chips or pellets instead of coal and gas, as they contribute to Denmark's green transition. It is our core competency and we should focus on. Our goal is that at least half of the electricity and heat coming from our power plants, must come from biomass by 2020, "says Thomas Dalsgaard.



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