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Author Topic: The Climate Change Hoax  (Read 116266 times)

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #460 on: April 15, 2017, 02:06:57 pm »

Good point! That's a very balanced approach. I've often been puzzled by Alan Goldhammer's position in this regard, because he claims to have qualifications in Chemistry.

Chemistry is a so-called 'hard' science which lends itself to the rigorous scientific processes of repeated testing under controlled conditions which can be observed over relatively short time scales. It also lends itself to experimentation designed to falsify a particular theory.

The consistency of the results of repeated experiments, together with a failure of all attempts to falsify a particular theory which is based upon the observations, results in a high degree of certainty that the theory is correct and allows for reliable predictions to be made.

Now surely it must be obvious to anyone with an understanding of the general methodology of science, that the subject of anthropogenic global warming falls outside the parameters of this rigorous approach.

It's impossible to create a realistic model of our planet and climate, with all its complexities, and conduct experiments to see what effect on the climate a 0.02% increase in CO2 might have. Instead, we rely upon very simplified computer models.
This is absolute hogwash and I don't know why your are mentioning my name in this post (and yes, I have both an undergraduate and doctoral degree in chemistry though the doctorate was in biological chemistry with a minor in organic chemistry).  I had a one term course in atmospheric chemistry a lot of years ago when I was an undergraduate.  There is a lot that comes from computer modeling and the ones being used today are far from being "simplified."  Look at all the analyses that went into the chemistry of smog formation and through the use of catalytic converters in automobiles and a reduction in sulfur content in gasoline, the great smog crisis in the Los Angeles basin was solved.  Nobody sat around waiting to see what mother nature would do.  Another good example were the early theoretical calculations of the impact of supersonic aircraft on the Ozone layer (the exhaust is destructive).  Back in the late 1960s, there was a lot of effort on the part of commerical aviation to develop supersonic passenger aircraft but the combination of high fuel cost and Ozone impact did this technology in. 

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However, the subject of the 'CO2 fertilization effect' does lend itself to repeated experimentation under various degrees of controlled conditions. Farmers have been observing for many decades the increased growth that results after they pump CO2 into their greenhouses, and have been getting extra cash for the increased growth.
It's time to get off this hobby horse and realize that more has been done to increase crop yield through plant breeding than will ever be seen from CO2 fertilization which will only play a minor part in things if at all.

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I would also add, that the certainty that increased plant growth due to CO2 is good, is greater than the certainty that possible warming due to CO2 is bad.
...and I can take the opposing point of view with the full certainty that neither of us will be proven right in our lifetime.
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Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #461 on: April 16, 2017, 12:28:29 am »

There is a lot that comes from computer modeling and the ones being used today are far from being "simplified."  Look at all the analyses that went into the chemistry of smog formation and through the use of catalytic converters in automobiles and a reduction in sulfur content in gasoline, the great smog crisis in the Los Angeles basin was solved.  Nobody sat around waiting to see what mother nature would do.  Another good example were the early theoretical calculations of the impact of supersonic aircraft on the Ozone layer (the exhaust is destructive).  Back in the late 1960s, there was a lot of effort on the part of commerical aviation to develop supersonic passenger aircraft but the combination of high fuel cost and Ozone impact did this technology in. 


You seem to have missed the point again, Alan. I'll repeat it. The success of modern science, and the degree of certainty about the accuracy of our theories, is dependent on our ability to make repeated tests and observe the results within a relatively short period of time.

Computer modeling might be a part of the process, and a very helpful part, but in the absence of practical testing to confirm the theoretical predictions, a degree of uncertainty remains, especially when the subject involved is enormously complex with a myriad of interacting and counteracting forces and influences, as is the case with the effects of CO2 on climate.

I'll repeat an analogy I made in a previous post, in case you missed it. If a Pharmacological company were to create a new drug, based  upon computer modeling and experiments with chemicals and cell cultures  in a laboratory, and were to claim with a high level of confidence that the new drug could cure or alleviate the symptoms of a particular ailment despite the fact that the new drug had not even been tested on mice, never mind humans, would you take the drug?

Of course, it would be illegal for such a drug to be marketed, and for good reason. There is usually a requirement that any new drug be tested on real creatures, such as mice, rats, guinea pigs and so on, before being tested on humans. From the following site: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK24645/

"Once a drug is shown to be effective in animals and to have a low incidence of side effects, it proceeds to safety assessment testing. These tests are conducted to evaluate drug safety in two different animal species, with animals receiving high doses of the new drug for 30 or 90 days. Animals are carefully monitored for side effects. After the study period, pathologists examine their organs for signs of drug toxicity. This drug safety testing in animals is carried out under guidelines mandated by law through the FDA. It is the last safety testing performed before the drug is given to people for clinical testing."

All of those issues you mentioned above, analysing the effects on human health of smog and sulphur emissions, and the effects of aircraft exhaust fumes on ozone, can be examined through the normal processes of testing using the scientific methodology.

My point is that the effect on the global climate of relatively tiny increases of atmospheric CO2, are outside the parameters of the rigorous processes of the scientific methodology. Any certainty expressed about such effects are more to do with religion and/or politics than science.

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It's time to get off this hobby horse and realize that more has been done to increase crop yield through plant breeding than will ever be seen from CO2 fertilization which will only play a minor part in things if at all.

What on earth are you talking about! CO2 is the most essential fertilizer of all. Without the fertilization effect of CO2 we'd all be dead. Nothing can grow without the presence of CO2. Even during preindustrial times when atmospheric CO2 was about 60% of current levels, the CO2 still had an essential fertilization effect, but not as great as today.

However, as with anything, too much can cause problems. CO2 levels of 1200 to 1500 ppm tend to have the maximum fertilization effect for some plants.
There are also studies which have investigated the effect of reduced CO2 levels on plants. Here's a summary of such studies. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-8137.2010.03441.x/pdf

"Such studies have shown that the average biomass production of modern C3 plants is reduced by c. 50% when grown at low (180–220 ppm) vs modern (350–380 ppm) [CO2], when other conditions are optimal (Sage & Coleman, 2001;
Fig. 5). There is, however, variation in this response among C3 species (Fig. 5), as well as within C3 species, whereby reductions in biomass may vary by 40–70% among genotypes (Ward & Strain, 1997; Hovenden & Schimanski, 2000; Mohan et al., 2004). In addition, as [CO2] declines to 150 ppm, biomass production may be reduced by as much as 92%, as was observed in A. theophrasti (Dipperyet al., 1995; Figs 2, 5)."

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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #462 on: April 16, 2017, 07:20:20 am »


What on earth are you talking about! CO2 is the most essential fertilizer of all. Without the fertilization effect of CO2 we'd all be dead. Nothing can grow without the presence of CO2. Even during preindustrial times when atmospheric CO2 was about 60% of current levels, the CO2 still had an essential fertilization effect, but not as great as today.
Ray, you again are totally missing the point!!!  Plant breeding has accomplished far more in terms of yield increase than the marginal CO2 effect you are championing.  If one looks at the increase in corn and wheat during the 20th century which was also the dawn of the coal/oil/gas power transition with accompanying increases in CO2 the yield increases came from breeding and not marginal increases in CO2. 

I've already commented on the biomass increase that you are fond of referencing.  Biomass only matters for ruminants who can digest and metabolize cellulose.  It doesn't have much of an impact on humans as we are incapable of doing so.  If food crops begin morphing to more biomass production as opposed to seed that's not a good thing. 

I'm done with this thread right now.  You and Bart can continue to have a discussion about the nuances of marginal CO2 and it's impact on biomass.  To me it's an irrelevant pimple on the surface of the earth.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #463 on: April 16, 2017, 10:15:33 am »

My point is that the effect on the global climate of relatively tiny increases of atmospheric CO2, are outside the parameters of the rigorous processes of the scientific methodology. Any certainty expressed about such effects are more to do with religion and/or politics than science.

Utter nonsense, again. The huge amounts of CO2 emissions (some 36 billion tons of CO2 annually from fossil fuel and cement, and accelerating) have very obvious effects on the deviation from normal climatic fluctuations.

In the case of CO2 emissions (and partly CO2 triggered other greenhouse gasses) we do have a lot of historical data to show the cause and effects:
https://www.co2.earth/annual-ghg-index-aggi
https://www.co2.earth/global-warming-update

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What on earth are you talking about! CO2 is the most essential fertilizer of all. Without the fertilization effect of CO2 we'd all be dead. Nothing can grow without the presence of CO2. Even during preindustrial times when atmospheric CO2 was about 60% of current levels, the CO2 still had an essential fertilization effect, but not as great as today.

However, as with anything, too much can cause problems. CO2 levels of 1200 to 1500 ppm tend to have the maximum fertilization effect for some plants.

You keep focusing on a single CO2 cause-effect, the increase of biomass. As Alan also pointed out, CO2 is not the only factor in plant growth, and probably much less so than other parameters (such as plant breeding and in important cases insect-pollination, pest control, light, nutrients, temperature, precipitation, flooding/drought, erosion). In fact, there are many other detrimental effects (also to plants) caused by CO2 and they are related to artificially accelerated global warming, and they will outweigh any biomass benefits (which can and will be successfully exploited in actual greenhouses, with controlled optimum climatic conditions).

Cheers,
Bart
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Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #464 on: April 16, 2017, 10:17:03 am »

Ray, you again are totally missing the point!!!  Plant breeding has accomplished far more in terms of yield increase than the marginal CO2 effect you are championing.  If one looks at the increase in corn and wheat during the 20th century which was also the dawn of the coal/oil/gas power transition with accompanying increases in CO2 the yield increases came from breeding and not marginal increases in CO2. 

Not at all. You have missed the point again. Plant breeding goes hand in hand with CO2 increases. Whatever advantages are gained by plant breeding and genetic engineering, those advantages are amplified, on average and to varying degrees, by increases in CO2 levels.
Also, the increases in natural forest growth, as well as human-planted forests, due to increases in CO2, are of great benefit to the climate. Forests tend to encourage more rainfall. The planet in general is greening as a result of CO2 increases. This is not just speculation.

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I've already commented on the biomass increase that you are fond of referencing.  Biomass only matters for ruminants who can digest and metabolize cellulose.  It doesn't have much of an impact on humans as we are incapable of doing so.  If food crops begin morphing to more biomass production as opposed to seed that's not a good thing.

Please provide the evidence that the numerous studies that show an increase in rice and wheat yield resulting from CO2 increases are flawed. There are also many types of non-seed food such as cabbage, tomatoes, carrots, potatoes and so on, which are more productive in higher levels of CO2. Grass-fed cattle also benefit.

You seem terribly biased for some reason, Alan.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #465 on: April 16, 2017, 01:52:50 pm »

This should automatically update monthly (at the moment of posting, data includes March 2017, we're at 407.05 ppm):

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Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #466 on: April 17, 2017, 04:35:23 am »

Wow! If this rate continues, at 3 parts per million per year, in 100 years time the levels of CO2 could be as high as 700 PPM, or a massive 0.07% of the atmosphere. How disastrous for those poor city dwellers who live in poorly ventilated rooms. They'll have to open their windows wider. How stressful!  ;)
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #467 on: April 17, 2017, 07:41:28 am »

Wow! If this rate continues, at 3 parts per million per year, in 100 years time the levels of CO2 could be as high as 700 PPM, or a massive 0.07% of the atmosphere. How disastrous for those poor city dwellers who live in poorly ventilated rooms. They'll have to open their windows wider. How stressful!  ;)

And this also results in a rise in global temperature, land temperature rise is larger than ocean temperature rise:
http://www.columbia.edu/~mhs119/Temperature/globalT_1880-1920base.pdf (includes March 2017 data)

And this all leads to climate change and the linked hydrologic changes.

Downplaying these accelerating numbers only shows the lack of understanding, which would explain the lack of urgency to address the issues.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 07:45:10 am by BartvanderWolf »
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