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Author Topic: Stopping action in low light  (Read 13177 times)

John Sheehy

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2006, 07:51:56 pm »

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Frankly, I'd buy some brighter light bulbs.

Color of light is important, too.  When you shoot a Canon (and most other digitals) in incandescent light, the blue channel is generally about 2 stops weaker than the red and green in the RAW exposure.  That makes the blue channel tremendously noisier; noisier in the shadows at ISO 100 than the green channel is at ISO 1600!
If you're shooting at 1600, then the blue channel actually has an exposure index of 6400; it is literally pushed two stops if you completely white balance the image.

Incandescent light and green foliage-filtered (and reflected) light are very difficult for current cameras with their limited dynamic range and native color balance.  The best light for white highlight or general subjects (or highlight color in white light) for most digitals is about R:G:B 1.9:1:1.4 (magenta).
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PicDaddy

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2006, 10:52:55 pm »

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And keep in mind that the DoF "problem" is less on smaller prints.

Point made.  The small version of the pic looks almost entirely in focus.

However, I am very happy to report that I put all the advice given today to good use tonight with great results.  With my 580EX pointed at the ceiling, I was able to shoot in manual mode at f/5.0 and 1/200 shutter speed at ISO 100...WOW!!!  Perfect DoF and all action stopped.

I used FEC to take the flash down 2/3 of a stop...and the results were very good.  

A couple points I should make is:

1) when you do this you need to really be aware of your background.  If you take a shot at an oblique angle to a wall for example you get uneven lighting from side to side.  
2) Shooting with custom white balance (I shoot RAW too, but like to see a decent preview on the LCD) was critical...the camera absolutely blew it on white balance on every setting but custom.

Beyond these two points, I could forget all the technical stuff and focus on getting the right shot.  Thanks to everyone for your help on this.
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Ray

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2006, 11:30:58 pm »

Lack of DoF when using flash can be a big problem. One can't have it all. It's sometimes better to accept a few shadows on the wall by firing the flash directly at the subject, if you want to get as much as possible in focus.

The following shots were at 100th sec, f11 and ISO 400. I probably should have used ISO 800, but you don't get a second chance in some situations.

I don't find the shadows at all disturbing in these shots of dancing apsaras, taken in a restaurant in Cambidia. (Or should that be 'apsarases'?)


[attachment=867:attachment]                                 [attachment=868:attachment]
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Craig Arnold

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2006, 03:23:59 am »

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Point made.  The small version of the pic looks almost entirely in focus.

However, I am very happy to report that I put all the advice given today to good use tonight with great results.  With my 580EX pointed at the ceiling, I was able to shoot in manual mode at f/5.0 and 1/200 shutter speed at ISO 100...WOW!!!  Perfect DoF and all action stopped.

I used FEC to take the flash down 2/3 of a stop...and the results were very good. 

A couple points I should make is:

1) when you do this you need to really be aware of your background.  If you take a shot at an oblique angle to a wall for example you get uneven lighting from side to side. 
2) Shooting with custom white balance (I shoot RAW too, but like to see a decent preview on the LCD) was critical...the camera absolutely blew it on white balance on every setting but custom.

Beyond these two points, I could forget all the technical stuff and focus on getting the right shot.  Thanks to everyone for your help on this.
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Just a couple of quick points from a P&S flash user.

Experiment with where you aim the flash head indoors. I have found that with a Stofen diffuser on and if the flash can light the room that you get a very nice effect by pointing the flash back over your head at 45degrees instead of straight up at the ceiling.

If there is ambient light from a window then you can angle the head to bounce off another wall to try to fill some of the directional light that can give.

Once again it depends on flash power, but in a small room don't be afraid of dropping right down to f8 to get DOF. In my house (in London) even our bigger rooms are not that big, and I can use f8, 1/125, ISO100/200 and bounce back over my shoulder with a diffuser.

All this with the Sigma 500DG Super, and the 580 is more powerful than the Sigma.
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James DeMoss

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2006, 04:49:05 am »

 I guess the original poster knew that low light would require "help" but not so much additinall lighting so as that might distract from the subject. I clearly can identify with this and use low light sitiuations frquently. My advice is that the OP consider adding and using avalable lite AND become familiar with strobes, lighting placement /direction. This is a subject at the core of photgraphy and from what I understand he wishes to have natural lite look - but you can have a natural look by adding lite, be it flash on camera/ multi-sync or lamps.

Bottom line, more light is needed, lower the ISO to a reasonable 200 and master "reading" and working with a given sitiation. I believe he has everything needed and is doing a great service by mentioning the fact digital cameras are leading some to believe "post-processing" is the cure to an image problem.

Good Luck

-James
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John Sheehy

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2006, 08:26:09 am »

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With my 580EX pointed at the ceiling, I was able to shoot in manual mode at f/5.0 and 1/200 shutter speed at ISO 100...WOW!!!  Perfect DoF and all action stopped.
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Using bounce flash at ISO 100/f5 sounds a bit ambitious.  I would expect poor exposure, and lots of noise in the shadows.  Forcing a low ISO when you can't get a full exposure is a *HUGE* mistake.  A stop of under-exposure causes far more noise than a stop higher ISO.  400 is the norm for such shooting.
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boku

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2006, 08:56:50 am »

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Using bounce flash at ISO 100/f5 sounds a bit ambitious.  I would expect poor exposure, and lots of noise in the shadows.  Forcing a low ISO when you can't get a full exposure is a *HUGE* mistake.  A stop of under-exposure causes far more noise than a stop higher ISO.  400 is the norm for such shooting.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72555\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I often wondered about the trade-off. I had no idea. Even with film this seemed ambiguous.

I'll take your word for it, but I'd like to have more insight as to how this was determined or where you came about this information.
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Bob Kulon

Oh, one more thing...[b

PicDaddy

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2006, 10:26:31 am »

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I don't find the shadows at all disturbing in these shots of dancing apsaras, taken in a restaurant in Cambidia. (Or should that be 'apsarases'?)

Nice pics!  I have to agree with you, but I would also add that you have 3 things going for you in these shots IMHO:

1) Flash to subject distance...it seems that you are far enough away from the dancers to get even light over them all at the same time
2) Subject to background distance...it seems that they are close enough to the background for the flash to work, but far enough away to not have a major shadow
3) The bright colors and detail in the shot take my eye in a thousand directions the least of which is the shadow.  Take the costume off the lady and take the same shot in a dining room with plain walls and Mr. Shadow might spoil the shot....
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PicDaddy

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2006, 10:30:13 am »

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I have found that with a Stofen diffuser on and if the flash can light the room that you get a very nice effect by pointing the flash back over your head at 45degrees instead of straight up at the ceiling.

I will have to try this...I am all for any technique that reduces the amount of that 'flash' look.  Thanks for the tips.
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PicDaddy

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2006, 11:09:50 am »

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I guess the original poster knew that low light would require "help" but not so much additinall lighting so as that might distract from the subject.

Exactly!!  No flashy look and no post-processing.

I am aware that 'brightening' the image later to correct underexposure in the camera will kill the shot with noise.  At the same time, I don't want to have the 'flash' look.  So its a balance.

Looking again at my shots from last night, I will probably go up to ISO 400 from ISO 100 to brighten shadows in the background.  I may also be able to drop shutter speed from 1/200 to 1/150 and stll stop the action.  This will probably also allow me to use a flash diffuser with the flash pointed behind my head AND push down the FEC from -2/3 to -1 or -1 1/3 maybe.  

Thanks to all the help I feel like I am on the right track to get this correct in camera. Now its all about fine tuning...
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Jonathan Wienke

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2006, 03:14:16 pm »

The biggest thing to realize is that especially in this type of photography, EVERYTHING is a compromise. Increasing ISO allows a faster shutter speed or smaller aperture (more DOF), but increases noise. Faster lenses allow lower ISO and faster shutter speeds, at the cost of DOF and big $$$. Flash can solve the shutter speed and aperture problems simultaneously, but you need some understanding and skill with lighting to avoid the typical P&S "flash look" with unattractive glare, black backgrounds, harsh shadows, and lots of redeye.

One technique I've used effectively when shooting indoor events with horrible lighting (1/2 second at ISO 3200, f/2) is multiple remote strobes. In small-to-medium sized rooms, a few 420EX flashes slaved to a 550EX or 580EX can fill in the background or increase overall flash range and power. Put them on stands, and bounce tham off the ceiling or a silver umbrella (white ones eat too much power for hotshoe flashes), and you get a nice diffuse light that works well even for portraits. I've shot portraits on location away from AC power this way, as the flashes and stands are light and portable enough to carry almost anywhere. For bigger rooms, you'll need some studio-type strobes like Alien Bees and a Pocket Wizard to trigger them wirelessly. I've even mixed both types of flash, with a 550EX in the camera shoe set at about -1 for fill, and the Pocket Wizard connected to the PC jack on the camera triggering the strobes providing the main lighting. A set of 4 Alien Bees with all the accessories (stands, umbrellas, wired remote control for adjusting all the lights' power from a single location, Pocket Wizard transmitter and receiver, sandbags to keep the stands from tipping over, etc.) will run a little over $2000, but will give you the ability to shoot in a huge variety of circumstances, limited mostly by your creativity.
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John Sheehy

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2006, 03:22:11 pm »

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I often wondered about the trade-off. I had no idea. Even with film this seemed ambiguous.

I'll take your word for it, but I'd like to have more insight as to how this was determined or where you came about this information.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72558\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The amoint of noise in the shadows with Canon DSLRs (and this should be true with other cameras, too) increases at a slower rate than the ISO as you raise the ISO.  For my 20D, the noise (standard deviation RAW levels) goes like this in the deepest shadows (near black):

100 - 2.1
200 - 2.2
400 - 2.45
800 - 3.2
1600 - 4.7

This can be measured in a RAW  blackframe (cap on).  Amplifying 2x, 4x, 8x, or 16x what is amplified for ISO 100 should result in that many times as much noise, but from these numbers, you can see that it doesn't happen.  Rather than having 4x the shadow noise of ISO 100, ISO 400 only has 2.45/2.1 or 1.167x as much shadow noise.  This is called readout noise, as it happens even without any signal and is part of the readout process.  No matter what ISO you use, the readout noise is very significant.  It is what keeps ISO 100 from having significant exposure latitude.  At ISO 1600, the readout noise is highest (relative to the RAW level or RAW saturation), but *lowest* relative to the absolute sensor capture.  

So, for any given absolute sensor exposure, the *ONLY* disadvantage of higher ISOs is the potential for clipping.  No noise issues, whatsoever, except lower noise at the higher ISOs.  Any properly-conducted experiment with a Canon DSLR will bear this out.  The idea that high ISOs bring on noise is based on experience changing the ISO while the EC remains constant, and the absolute sensor exposure varies inversely with the ISO.

There is another aspect of noise, which is the highlight noise, which is photon counting noise.  This is almost the same at all ISOs for the same absolute exposure (but the relatively weaker shot noise is added to it, so the higher ISO has a very slight advantage here); the main difference between ISOs for absolute exposures that are in the midtone and highlight ranges of the ISOs is the amount of posterization in the digitization process, which is higher for the lower ISOs.

This is one reason why people crave auto-ISO with manually selected f-stop and shutter speed; you can only create more noise by having a choice of ISO, and failing to maximize it for your manual absolute exposure.  I would love a mode that let me pick f-stop and shutter speed, let me dial in exposure compensation based on key and contrast, and automate the ISO.  IMO, photography is not about ISO; ISO is an unfortunate side-effect of non-ideal technology.
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Ray

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2006, 08:06:52 pm »

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Take the costume off the lady and take the same shot in a dining room with plain walls ..................[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72563\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Now that's an idea! I don't think she would have agreed, though!  

All your points are valid, but I presume you are sometimes going to use flash outside of the family home. If you've got a nice white ceiling or wall to bounce the light off, that's fine.
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Ray

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2006, 08:34:29 pm »

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The amoint of noise in the shadows with Canon DSLRs (and this should be true with other cameras, too) increases at a slower rate than the ISO as you raise the ISO. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72602\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


John,
This is true. I first saw you demonstrate this on the old Galbraith forum and I've since confirmed it myself with the 5D. It's always better to fully expose at a higher ISO than underexpose at a lower ISO. This is particularly true of the current crop of Canon DSLRs, but the improvement was far less dramatic with the early Canon models and probably still isn't dramatic with current Nikon DSLRs.

It's really another way of saying that noise at high ISOs has improved . ISO 1600 is now usable. I assumed the reason was due to some fancy, proprietary noise reduction system, and I still suspect that's the case. Even though the reduction in noise has now been identified as a reduction in 'read-out' noise, it doesn't necessarily follow that a proprietary noise reduction system has not been employed. Simply amplifying the analog signal itself does not ensure significantly lower read noise, or we would have had low noise, usable ISO from the beginning, in Canon's first model the D30, for example.

On the other hand, perhaps the innovation here is that previously the analog signal never was amplified prior to A/D conversion. It was all done in the digital domain.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2006, 08:58:45 pm by Ray »
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dwdallam

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2006, 07:27:46 pm »

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Sorry, that should have read "left edge".
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I didn't read this entire thread because it does not seem that important to me--since you are shooting family snapshots. All of the advice given, of course, is valid. But here is my thinking on the subject:

1. Who cares if you get a little harsh light in family snapshots?

2. If you are really worried about getting snapshot looks from a camera mounted flashgun while taking , uh snapshots, then invest in a small stand for your 580EX and a small softbox that fits on it. Then just carry it from room to room. You'll need a radio control for the EX. As an alternative, you can use a small strobe, like the Alien Bees and a cheap radio transmitter (about 20.00 on Ebay). Just plug the strobe into the wall outlet or use their battery pack.

3. If you want to use the 580EX on the camera, invest in a 50.00 off camera arm and a cord, and then again use a small softbox that attaches to the 580EX.

4. Perhaps most important, you can set the EX to High Speed flash (dialed right on the EX), which will allow you to use any shutter speed you want. You lose a little distance because the flash does not stay on for as long, and this increases with each faster shutter speed. This should not be a problem shooting indoors. I use high speed synch outdoors on my 5D and have no problems with it. This will allow you to set you r shutter and fstop manually to anything youn want.

5. Remember that you will ALWAYS get key light flash type exposure if your shuttter speed is greater than what the correct exposure needs to be for  the ambient light. There is no way around this because if you use a shutter speed faster than which allows the ambient light to record, your background will be dark and your subjects will be lit by the flashgun looking like a traditioanl flash--not fill light, which Canon flashes try to do by slowing the shutter down after they run up against your lens' fastest speed.

6. If you really don't want to use a flash, your best option is to increase light in your rooms--as others have already mentioned. Remember too that the 5D's sych speed is 1/200th and that the 20D is 1/250th, which is quite abit faster. Again, you can get by this using the EX's High Speed Synch option. You can buy a cheap halogen type room light at about 300 watts that bounces off the ceiling for around 50.00 at target. That will light a fairly large living room enough to shoot with a decent fstop and shutter with a high ISO.


Good luck.
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John Sheehy

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2006, 07:58:13 pm »

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You can buy a cheap halogen type room light at about 300 watts that bounces off the ceiling for around 50.00 at target. That will light a fairly large living room enough to shoot with a decent fstop and shutter with a high ISO.
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I do not recommend any yellow- or amber-colored light for digital photography, if light richer in blue can be had.
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Ray

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2006, 08:33:09 pm »

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1. Who cares if you get a little harsh light in family snapshots?

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dwdallam,
That is not a good attitude. If a job is worth doing, it's worth doing well. Even though one might never sell the family photos, doing the best job one can will contibute to one's own learning of photographic technique.
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PicDaddy

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2006, 09:19:20 pm »

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If a job is worth doing, it's worth doing well. Even though one might never sell the family photos, doing the best job one can will contibute to one's own learning of photographic technique.
You said it so much better than I would have.  Our families are the most important thing to most of us.  I want my collection of family photographs to be something that captures the *essence* of who we are.  With regards to children, I'd actually like to take a photograph of their soul if I could.  It's not about how cute they are, or who came to their 3rd birthday party, its about how we think and live and love and feel.  

I am finding it both a technical and an artistic challenge to get to this level.  For 2 years I have been pushing myself to improve my technique.  After five thousand shots I think I have less than 5 that approach what I really want...a photograph that allows you to look inside someone.  I believe I have many more years of learning yet ahead of me.

I hear you all on the stand-mounted lights.   Its a complexity, but one I think I can live with - will research your suggestions.  I will also look into the high-speed sync option on my 580EX...thanks dwdallam.   Anything to eliminate the artificial from the scene and emphasize the subject.

John, your data on the ISO's blows me away...very good information.  I love this concept of auto-ISO.  Shutter speed relates to action/blur, aperture to DOF, and ISO relates to limitations in the  mechanism...it could be taken out of the photographic equation and nobody would ever miss it.  I'll shut up now...
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dwdallam

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Stopping action in low light
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2006, 06:23:24 am »

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dwdallam,
That is not a good attitude. If a job is worth doing, it's worth doing well. Even though one might never sell the family photos, doing the best job one can will contibute to one's own learning of photographic technique.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72668\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

His options for learning lighting are relatively small using area lighting and an on camera flash gun though. If he wanted to learn lighting, he's gonna need some off camera lights. But then using a flash gun like the EX on camera is a completely different animal, being that the on camera flash is usually meant to be fill flash with the sun as key or other main light as a key light.

That's why I suggested using the off camera arm for the EX and putting a small flashgun softbox over it, along with some area lighting in the rooms, aka more omnidirectional light.

He said "snapshot" -- lol.
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dwdallam

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« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2006, 06:45:07 am »

The only way I can see doing what you want to do "right" is to use area lighting and an on camera flashgun. The reason I say this is that if you want to capture family images you need them to be natural, not posed--and there goes your beautiful lighting set up. The only way around moving subjects and bad lighting is to "area light" a room as evenly as possible and use your on camera flash as fill light--which is what Canon had in mind anyway. If you could truly light evenly all of your room with diffused area lighting--like having multiple softboxes in every room--you could do away with the on camera flashgun. That isn't realistic however.

My suggestion for you in your situation is to better light your rooms, maybe with a secondary light switch you can use only when you are shooting, and to use an off camera arm with the 580EX on high speed sync. Play with your shutter and stops to get the exposure settings that produce images that you find acceptable. I say this because my intense reading on the subject, and my several studio practice sessions, have taught me that really nice lighting takes lots of practice and lots of time setting up the light and making small incremental adjustments--even for the pros. This type of lighting pretty much precludes shooting small kids--they move around too much. That's why people doing family portraits with small kids--and some adults who can't sit still--use large softboxes that are really just "area lighting"--lighting the entire studio pretty much evenly. It's you typical clear, crisp mall shot--very little modeling light or other nice lighting techniques, no style, but lots of light and clear snapshot type images.

There just isn't much you can do about light when your subjects are moving around, be they in your home or out in public, except to get enough of it, or get really lucky, or both, or in the case of street people photography pick a spot where the light is where you want it, even if only for 15 minutes (rotation of the earth), and try to get a shot where the light is on the subject as you want it when the subject passes by. You can try that with your kids using your windows for key light in daytime, but put something over the window to diffuse the light--white sheet, etc. Then have your kids get near the window and try to use the light as a key. Use the 580 as fill.

Thus--more area lights, small softbox for your flashgun, play with shutter/stops/flashgun settings. Your other options is to set up a studio, but those aren't nearly as nice as on the spot snaps of a family. If you get good in a studio, you CAN bring out the personality, or as you say, the "soul," of your kids, but that is another topic. Point being that nothing can take the place of good snaps for family pictures, and your lighting options are limited.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 06:54:07 am by dwdallam »
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