Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results  (Read 1920 times)

Pete JF

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 253

Hi Folks..I'm trying to nail down a few inconsistent behaviors with my print results..

I've been trying a few different calibration schemes mostly variation in brightness of the overall calibration on my PA272

The following is confounding me:

When I print using Epson's ABW I get exact screen to print matches..

When I print in color (using Canson Baryta with Canson profiles) my prints are always a couple of noticeable notches lighter.than what the Monitor is showing me...The colot is feeling fairly accurate but the print are always a bit lighter..ABW-exact.

MY print viewing is being done, now, under a Hyperikon 3000k (testing a bit with 4000k Hyperikon too) BW and color prints under same lighting of course..

Could it be the Canson profiles? when I soft proof using the profiles I don't get a real shift in brightness..I was never comfortable with soft proofing and never..ever, had to do it when printing out of Photoshop and using my Sony Artisan..my color prints and my ABW generated prints were always right on the button..didn't have to think about and now that I do? It's driving me nuts..



« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 03:13:17 PM by Pete JF »
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9578
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 02:57:55 PM »

I can't understand what your problem is from this description. Please answer the following with "CORRECT" or "WRONG":

(1) When I print with ABW what I see on my display looks the same as the paper print.

(2) When I print with Canson's profile in RGB mode, I do not softproof on the NEC display and
(2A) in this condition the print looks brighter than the display image.

(3) When I print with Canson's profile in RGB mode, and I softproof on the NEC display, then
(3A) in this condition the print looks the same as the display image.

If all of the above are "CORRECT", then the obvious answer to your colour management problem is to always make your final edits under softproof.

As well, check that the calibration of your display is sending you the right information compared with what comes out of the printer using a standard printer evaluation image to which you make no adjustments.

If any of the above are "WRONG" further diagnosis may be needed.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Pete JF

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 253
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2017, 03:18:05 PM »

I can't understand what your problem is from this description. Please answer the following with "CORRECT" or "WRONG":

(1) When I print with ABW what I see on my display looks the same as the paper print. CORRECT

(2) When I print with Canson's profile in RGB mode, I do not softproof on the NEC display and
(2A) in this condition the print looks brighter than the display image. CORRECT

(3) When I print with Canson's profile in RGB mode, and I softproof on the NEC display, then
(3A) in this condition the print looks the same as the display image. (Meh...not really, soft proofing remains elusive to me, nothing I do gets me back to what the image looks like in the Develop module... WRONG)

If all of the above are "CORRECT", then the obvious answer to your colour management problem is to always make your final edits under softproof.

As well, check that the calibration of your display is sending you the right information compared with what comes out of the printer using a standard printer evaluation image to which you make no adjustments. Where can I find a suitable image for this?

If any of the above are "WRONG" further diagnosis may be needed.
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9578
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2017, 03:21:05 PM »

OK, I think you need to work on your softproofing. What do you find "elusive" about softproofing?
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Pete JF

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 253
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2017, 03:57:44 PM »

OK, I think you need to work on your softproofing. What do you find "elusive" about softproofing?

Everything. How's that for starters?  :  )  And I know I'm not alone.

For one..the white border/background becomes very distracting to my eyes.

Which tools to use..exposure-contrast, saturation, curves..Nothing seems to get me to what i was enjoying about the image in the develop module..It becomes a game of going backwards in some sense..a matching game...which is never good.

And, I don't understand why this is the only way to do it?..Example..How to get rid of the white background simulating the paper? why is this necessary?..Seems silly to have white light being shot at you while trying to evaluate an image on a screen made of light Couldn't they give you the option of using the profile in soft proof with out the white in your eyes? Maybe I'm missing something?

..it's not the same as looking at a print on paper with a white border around it...reflected light vs light beams directed at eyes.

Also a mystery as to why, when working out of photoshop using an artisan, i never had these issues previously.

thanks, Mark. I appreciate your attention.


EDIT: I just right clicked on the white background in Soft Proof mode and noticed that you can, in fact, change the color..

Do folks actually work with the white background usually? Or, do they change to darker color?





« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 04:06:29 PM by Pete JF »
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9578
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2017, 05:56:15 PM »

Everything. How's that for starters?  :  )  And I know I'm not alone.

For one..the white border/background becomes very distracting to my eyes.

Which tools to use..exposure-contrast, saturation, curves..Nothing seems to get me to what i was enjoying about the image in the develop module..It becomes a game of going backwards in some sense..a matching game...which is never good.

And, I don't understand why this is the only way to do it?..Example..How to get rid of the white background simulating the paper? why is this necessary?..Seems silly to have white light being shot at you while trying to evaluate an image on a screen made of light Couldn't they give you the option of using the profile in soft proof with out the white in your eyes? Maybe I'm missing something?

..it's not the same as looking at a print on paper with a white border around it...reflected light vs light beams directed at eyes.

Also a mystery as to why, when working out of photoshop using an artisan, i never had these issues previously.

thanks, Mark. I appreciate your attention.


EDIT: I just right clicked on the white background in Soft Proof mode and noticed that you can, in fact, change the color..

Do folks actually work with the white background usually? Or, do they change to darker color?

OK, let's deal with this from the basics.

The purpose of the softproof is to simulate on your display the appearance of the print that will emerge from your printer.
For this to work satisfactorily, you should simulate paper white and ink.
The shade of the image surround does not need to be pure white - this can be hard on the eyes, but no darker than light gray. The purpose of this is simply that you view prints with light all over the place, so if you make the surround dark you will miss replicating this context, and the image on the display will appear to have more contrast than it will show out of the printer.
Softproof is working your printer/paper profile in reverse to produce the simulation you need. If the printer is managing colour, it is irrelevant because you aren't using a profile of your choosing. As long as you are working in RGB mode with Photoshop or Lightroom managing colour, you should adjust your photo under softproof for your printing/paper condition whether you are printing colour or B&W. You can make different editing versions or do it on layers if you want to preserve a non-softproofed version.
There is nothing more elusive to softproofing than these few principles. By using it, I keep my waste ratio well below 5% and my prints reliably look the way I want them to.
Finally, you need to calibrate your monitor by running a printer test image (such as the one on the Outback Photo website) through the printer using your usual paper (no adjustments to anything except choice of the right profile) and then making sure the brightness and contrast of your monitor are set so that what you see on the display looks like what came out of the printer under typical print viewing conditions; then profile the monitor with this calibration.

This combination of procedures should give you reliable, successful outcomes.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Wayne Fox

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3755
    • waynefox.com
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2017, 09:01:41 PM »

If it's a "profile" problem it's usually because the settings used to make the profile aren't matching the settings used to making the print.  It isn't the profile itself, but the settings in the driver determine ink load.  If you use a different paper type or have other settings that are different than what was used to make the profile it could mean not enough ink is being laid down.

If you find the ABW prints match well, but your color prints are too light, you might consider different monitor calibrations based on what type of print you are working on, and adjust the brightness of the display accordingly.

This is very simple to do if you are using NEC Spectraview software to calibrate your NEC.  Adjust the brightness in the monitor calibration until you get a nice match density wise.  Then switch based on which type of image you are working on, only takes about 20 seconds to switch in SpectraView. You may also find your ABW versions still look good and decently match to the new color setting.

Soft proofing is based establishing a good monitor/print match. Once that is established then soft proofing can help detect issues, but if the match isn't there, really no way to soft proof.

Pete JF

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 253
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2017, 09:29:43 AM »

Morning,

I downloaded the test image, printed it using only the profile of the paper i was using.

The resulting print was, as is usual, a bight lighter than it looked on screen.

After thatI started making calibrations in Sprectraview 2 to try and match the print

 ..I basically upped the 'intensity' on each successive one..going from 70 to 130 across in increments  4 or 5 different test calibrations. The screen got brighter for sure but as far as the image it self..? The reds on the test print still seemed lighter and less saturated than the image on the screen..skin tones-lighter, less saturation..blue sky- same thing..on and on..it almost felt like the actual issues with the looked about exactly the same as it's been looking.

Keep in mind..this isn't  a huge difference..but it's enough..i've had better matches on much cheaper rigs using a spider

After about 4 or so test calibrations i switch to D50,  300:1, intensity 80 then 100 then 120..still felt the same..change contrast ratio..blah blah..went to bed

Something weird going on here.
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9578
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2017, 10:11:47 AM »

Sorry to hear that. Also sorry I can't help on Spectraview because I don't use that software. I use BasicColor Display (http://www.basiccolor.de/basiccolor-display-5-en/) as I have found it to be more accurate when I tested both some years ago. With BasicColor Display, the key parameters for the calibration are the white point, the brightness and the gamma curve (contrast curve). For what it's worth, in my dimly lit working environment, I'm finding a reliable calibration with D50, 110 cd/M2, and L* gamma setting. I don't know how to translate that into Spectraview settings or whether that particular combination would be optimal in your environment. I am using an NEC PA271, which I believe is quite similar to your display.

As Wayne and I mentioned, you need to print under the same conditions used to make the profile you are using - in particular, are you sure you selected the correct Media Type (the same as the one for which the profile is specified) when you printed the test photo? When you compared the display image with the printed image, did you have the display image showing as a softproof? Both of these conditions are necessary for your purpose.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

deanwork

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1238
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2017, 02:25:32 PM »

Try changing your rendering intent when printing color from the one you are using, both in soft proofing as well as when printing.





Morning,

I downloaded the test image, printed it using only the profile of the paper i was using.

The resulting print was, as is usual, a bight lighter than it looked on screen.

After thatI started making calibrations in Sprectraview 2 to try and match the print

 ..I basically upped the 'intensity' on each successive one..going from 70 to 130 across in increments  4 or 5 different test calibrations. The screen got brighter for sure but as far as the image it self..? The reds on the test print still seemed lighter and less saturated than the image on the screen..skin tones-lighter, less saturation..blue sky- same thing..on and on..it almost felt like the actual issues with the looked about exactly the same as it's been looking.

Keep in mind..this isn't  a huge difference..but it's enough..i've had better matches on much cheaper rigs using a spider

After about 4 or so test calibrations i switch to D50,  300:1, intensity 80 then 100 then 120..still felt the same..change contrast ratio..blah blah..went to bed

Something weird going on here.
Logged

Wayne Fox

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3755
    • waynefox.com
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2017, 06:03:15 PM »

MY print viewing is being done, now, under a Hyperikon 3000k (testing a bit with 4000k Hyperikon too) BW and color prints under same lighting of course..

Any possibility your lamps are too close and are too bright?  In matching density of prints to a display, the brightness of the light source on the prints is also a "variable".  Sometimes it can be changed, sometimes not, but if you are blasting too much light onto the print it may appear a little washed out when in fact it's about the right density.

Wondering which test print you downloaded as well. You said you printed it ... does it look pretty "normal" in other situations around your office or home?  Just trying to rule out something in the profile/paper settings as a possible issue.

Garnick

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 542
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2017, 10:24:37 AM »

Any possibility your lamps are too close and are too bright?  In matching density of prints to a display, the brightness of the light source on the prints is also a "variable".  Sometimes it can be changed, sometimes not, but if you are blasting too much light onto the print it may appear a little washed out when in fact it's about the right density.

Wondering which test print you downloaded as well. You said you printed it ... does it look pretty "normal" in other situations around your office or home?  Just trying to rule out something in the profile/paper settings as a possible issue.

Hi Wayne,

Been following this thread, since it pertains to a question I posted a few weeks ago in another thread.  It was a rather simple question, or so I thought.  I've been moving my business to my home location and setting up a new(er) lighting system for viewing/judging the prints I make for other photographers, as well as my own.  Since the late 60s-early 70s I've been using 5000K fluorescent with approximately 400 Lux intensity on the print.  The rather large selection of lighting being used for this purpose now gives me one more area to research, which I have already started.  However, my initial question pertained to the average intensity of the light on the print when viewing/judging for average lighting to be displayed under.  In traditional lab work there was always a consistent colour temp and intensity we had to reach for this work, but now it seems to be a "to each his/her own" scenario.  I have seen a Lux figure from 200 to 1500-2000 for such situations.  When I read your reply here it certainly peaked my interest, as I had been thinking along that path as well, the fact that a high intensity light source for viewing would definitely cause problems matching the display, and vice versa.  Again I come back to my original response in the former thread I had been involved in.  The fact is we are not selling displays, we are selling prints.  The print is the final product, while the display is simply a tool, one part of the process.  A well calibrated and profiled display is of course an essential part of the process, but of course not the final or most important part.

Gary
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 12:59:15 PM by Garnick »
Logged
LuLa - The source of ALL! -- "There's nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept" -- Ansel Adams
Even though a big part of my life has been spent dealing with negatives, they generally end up being positives -- gan

Tim Lookingbill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2036
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2017, 04:39:57 AM »

This isn't a lighting issue.

The OP is having issues with differences between printing with a custom profile vs Epson ABW.

Quote
The following is confounding me:

When I print using Epson's ABW I get exact screen to print matches..

When I print in color (using Canson Baryta with Canson profiles) my prints are always a couple of noticeable notches lighter.than what the Monitor is showing me...The colot is feeling fairly accurate but the print are always a bit lighter..ABW-exact.
Logged

Jimmy D Uptain

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 215
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2017, 06:52:56 AM »

I had the same issue just last week with Red River's Baryta. It printed much brighter than my display. So I re-calibrated my monitor to a higher brightness, no joy.

If I changed to a different paper profile, it printed much closer. I didn't change the paper, just the profile.

The funny thing is, the closest profile was Canson's profile.

Good thing is, canned profiles are free, so you can try different ones to see if that's the issue.

Red River said it sounded like a bad profile and they would do another and see if that fixes my problem.



One more thing, my issue was only with color prints.

For about a month I have been using Quad Tone Rip for my b&W, and my prints are very nice. You don't have to convert your printer to use QTR. It will use your existing inkset.
Logged

Wayne Fox

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3755
    • waynefox.com
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2017, 11:32:26 AM »

This isn't a lighting issue.

The OP is having issues with differences between printing with a custom profile vs Epson ABW.
While that is true, to me the main issue is he cannot seem to create a display profile that allows a density match to his color prints.  This is assuming he is printing a known test file and not printing files that have an issue of not enough density in them when trying to get a match.

Main causes for this to me seem to be:

-Incorrect settings in the driver.  i assume he has verified that he is using the correct Epson media type recommended by Canson.

-Poor profile which was his original questions. Could be checked by printing same image on another paper type, preferably an Epson paper with an Epson profile.  also might try Epson's legacy Baryta profile instead of Canson's.  I have tried Canson Baryta with the Canson profile on my p9000 and the results were fine. While I wouldn't rule out the profile I would be surprised.  Also Canson is a pretty popular paper and many on this forum have used it, really haven't seen any complaints like this about the canson profile so this seems unlikely.


While too much light seems  unlikely based on what sounds like a single LED bulb as the light source, I mentioned it because I have seen it a couple of times.

Pete JF

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 253
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2017, 02:04:40 PM »

Wayne, I downloaded one that was at Outback..this one

Also to Wayne..I'm good with my driver settings..fairly straight up for this..media type=Espon Premium Semigloss (recommended for Canson Baryta) selecting the Canson profile etc..


Lighting wise I was careful to back the lamp off..took some measurements from the wall where I previously viewed images..satisified with what I have right now...plus the mention previously by someone that my ABW prints were perfect matches to the monitor.

And, update: I've been working in Soft Proof with a light gray background (MUCH better)..Things are matching up pretty well right now but I still hate working in Soft Proof..things feel weird and not intuitive..struggling with what tools to use will get me back to what my images look like in Develop mode..Trying to keep it simple and all but i don't find it simple in any way and feel that the image, as I want it in the Develop Module..is not exactly there.

Typically, what tools do you guys try to stick with when soft proofing??..lots of choices and can be frustrating..exposure, contrast, black clipping level, curves, saturation, dealing with color shifts..

Also, when do you jump into Soft Proof mode?  At the beginning of editing -working on a Proof copy? At the end after working in the Develop module?

And the nagging question is: Why did I never feel the need to Soft Proof when I was using my old Artisan?? My prints were always so close..i could pull a decent print and then a minor tweak or two and I had it..Never once used Soft Proof..tried it but could not deal with it..(in photoshop BTW)
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 02:07:58 PM by Pete JF »
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9578
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2017, 02:23:16 PM »

Let's start off forgetting about your Sony Artisan. Those days are gone, over with. Need to adapt to what is available to use now.

Working in softproof is in principle methodologically no different from working without softproof. The reaction of the histogram will differ to the extent that the gamut limitation of the softproof condition is playing out there. This is what you want. You use the same editing tools you would have used without softproofing. It's just that the adjustments will be a bit different with glossy/luster papers and more different with matte papers. Be guided in your adjustments primarily by what the photo looks like under softproof, because that is close to what it will look like out of the printer. You can use the histogram for general guidance on what's going on re clipping etc., but the primary focus should be on the character of the photo as it looks under softproof and what happens to it as you use the usual controls in the usual ways.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Pete JF

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 253
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2017, 02:47:27 PM »

Mark, RE the Sony..it was a question because I'm curious as to why?

As for how to approach Soft Proofing..thank you..that's pretty much how I've been proceeding..also using the "Y" key to compare the differences.

I'm still curious about when you guys prefer to jump into Soft Proof mode (?) I'm sure that response will vary quite a bit.


Also and very interesting: I was reading Ctein's method for letting Printer Manage etc..

This morning I set up a print according to his settings...Very impressive. I printed an image straight out of the Develop module using his 'Printer Managed' routine and it looks pretty much dead on..This feels promising for me.

Have any of you experimented with this routine? I noticed a thread on this forum about it..







Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9578
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2017, 02:55:14 PM »

I do 99% of my photo editing and printing out of Lightroom. I START with softproof active because I know which paper and printer I shall be using, and I'm unlikely to make another print using some other paper; but if I do, I also know I can easily make a virtual copy ay any stage of the image editing and start over (if I go back to the beginning) or adjust incrementally under softproof for the other paper. Lightroom makes all this easy because the history steps are preserved and the original never changes. The non-softproofed state is meaningless to me because I am printing. Except, I would NOT use softproof for photos that are only purposed to the Internet.

As for Printer Manages Color: a crap-shoot. I want to control what I'm producing, and because I'm properly colour-managed, my waste ratio is in the range of 1%.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Tim Lookingbill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2036
Re: Print lighting, NEC PA272w Calibrations..Printing...differing results
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2017, 03:27:40 PM »

Also to Wayne..I'm good with my driver settings..fairly straight up for this..media type=Espon Premium Semigloss (recommended for Canson Baryta) selecting the Canson profile etc..
So you're NOT rolling your own profiles for each paper? You're using Canson's supplied profiles? Don't know if it's been mentioned already but printers can drift over time but then that would mean it would affect Epson's ABW profile as well.

To nail down what you describe as brighter looking prints is this in the blacks and shadows only giving an overall washed out contrast where you can still see distinction in the separation in highlight detail going by that small 12 step grayramp in the lower center of your test image. IOW do the blacks look as dense as in the test image?
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up