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Author Topic: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.  (Read 4975 times)

donbga

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2017, 10:07:20 PM »

Didn't Nikon or Leica have a gold plated commemorative camera a while back?

I think it was a Leica but it may have been a 'Blad or a Nikon.

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2017, 10:46:04 PM »

I think many here don't quite realize the consequences this decision would have.

Considering the corporate culture in Japan, Sony cutting off Nikon and the rest of the market from best in breed sensors will be perceived as an act of war.

The only possible decision from all the other camera companies is to stop sourcing sensors from Sony as soon as they can. Within 2-3 years this will probably mean the end of Sony's supremacy in imaging sensors because Nikon will fund the R&D of a competitor just like Nikon has funded the development of Exmor based APS-C and FF sensors.

Would that be a smart move?

Cheers,
Bernard
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shadowblade

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2017, 10:56:15 PM »

They're not selling their top-line sensor to anyone else either. Nikon's not being singled out.

It's not like other Japanese companies don't keep their top-tier products in-house too. I don't see Nikon selling their AF system, or Canon making their 200-400 f/4 in F-mount or E-mount. So why should Sony make their top-tier Exmor available to everyone else?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2017, 11:55:23 PM »

I am sure you can figure out the obvious difference by yourself!;)

Cheers,
Bernard
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donbga

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2017, 02:46:43 AM »

I think it was a Leica but it may have been a 'Blad or a Nikon.

And the answer is:
Gold plated commorative cameras.


 - Leica, Nikon & 'Blad.
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shadowblade

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2017, 03:12:06 AM »

I am sure you can figure out the obvious difference by yourself!;)

Cheers,
Bernard

I don't see how you can expect Sony to sell their top-tier components to all their direct competitors, while not expect Nikon or Canon to do the same.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2017, 01:00:15 PM »

I don't see how you can expect Sony to sell their top-tier components to all their direct competitors, while not expect Nikon or Canon to do the same.

I can see that.

Just one hint, is Nikon in the business of selling AF modules, have they been selling AF modules in the past, has any customer of their AF modules been selling 10 times more cameras than themselves using these modules,... I could go on for a few minutes if I didn't have to have my shoes checked at the New Zealand bio-hasard check point.

I am not saying that Sony won't do it, just that it would be a stupid move.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Raul_82

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2017, 02:33:59 PM »

I don't think that Sony being the only provider of high end camera sensors is an ideal scenario. Whether the rumor is true or not, this shows how many camera makers are dependent on the decisions of another company that is also competing in the camera market.

But then again, what to do. I've been waiting for Canon to come up with a sensor not even as good as the Sony alternative, but at least 'better' than what they have now, in terms of DR, to no luck. Another rumor is that the 5DS/DS R won't even get a replacement this year. 

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Paul2660

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2017, 06:07:28 PM »

Good point, and it's obvious that the bottleneck of the the Sony supply is still being felt in the industry due to the damage from the earthquake last year.  Many APS-C cameras are still not readily available and the X1D and GFX are still shipping in an extremely limited supply.  Of course that could be due to other reasons within each company. 

Paul Caldwell
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BJL

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2017, 10:08:24 PM »

I continue to be skeptical about the idea of Sony trying to take ILC sales away from Nikon by limiting what sensors it will provide—an idea that has been debated on and off for over a decade.  Sony would have to weigh wins and losses from the various ways that purchasing decision would change for people who would buy a Nikon SLR if they continue to have full access to Sony sensors.


Wins: customers who change to buying a Sony EVF camera.

Losses: customers who change to buying a Canon SLR with non-Sony sensor, or who stay with Nikon, now getting a model with a non-Sony sensor.

About break-even: customers who stay with Nikon and buy a camera with a slightly inferior model of Sony sensor, or who change to some other brand, most of which use Sony sensors.


My guess is that the high-end strength of the big two SLR systems, with their lens selection, AF, metering, and optical viewfinders, would make the losses outweigh the gains.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2017, 12:50:46 AM »

Hi,

Canon's recent sensors use new technology and are catching up in DR, but Sony is still the leader regarding DR.

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20III,Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Sony%20ILCE-7RII

Best regards
Erik

I don't think that Sony being the only provider of high end camera sensors is an ideal scenario. Whether the rumor is true or not, this shows how many camera makers are dependent on the decisions of another company that is also competing in the camera market.

But then again, what to do. I've been waiting for Canon to come up with a sensor not even as good as the Sony alternative, but at least 'better' than what they have now, in terms of DR, to no luck. Another rumor is that the 5DS/DS R won't even get a replacement this year.

Raul_82

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2017, 09:55:49 AM »


Canon's recent sensors use new technology and are catching up in DR, but Sony is still the leader regarding DR.


Yes this is true, but apparently another year will pass and this tech won't make it to a new 5DS. So you still need to choose between the one with highest resolution or the one with high DR, and who knows what sony will be releasing a year from now.
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razrblck

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2017, 07:10:26 AM »

I continue to be skeptical about the idea of Sony trying to take ILC sales away from Nikon by limiting what sensors it will provide—an idea that has been debated on and off for over a decade.  Sony would have to weigh wins and losses from the various ways that purchasing decision would change for people who would buy a Nikon SLR if they continue to have full access to Sony sensors.


Wins: customers who change to buying a Sony EVF camera.

Losses: customers who change to buying a Canon SLR with non-Sony sensor, or who stay with Nikon, now getting a model with a non-Sony sensor.

About break-even: customers who stay with Nikon and buy a camera with a slightly inferior model of Sony sensor, or who change to some other brand, most of which use Sony sensors.


My guess is that the high-end strength of the big two SLR systems, with their lens selection, AF, metering, and optical viewfinders, would make the losses outweigh the gains.

Agree. Sony will be doing only damage to itself if they don't sell the sensors they make, and they make a lot of sensors. I'm sure they probably keep the best out of the factory for themselves (with CMOS you can always have some sensors with a bunch of dead pixels or some other defects that lower slightly the performance but are still usable). They do make a profit selling sensors to others, while the internal camera division doesn't have to pay for them (or they just move money around to cover costs).

Sony knows well they don't have anything that can compete with Canon and Nikon in their respective markets, so they will only be losing money by cutting Nikon away. Even cutting supply to other MILC makers like Olympus and Fuji will be bad for their business, as those will just find someone else to get the sensors from.

Competitors are going to sell their cameras no matter what, people buy them not for the sensors but for the features. Sony isn't stupid and knows this well, this is why they will never stop selling sensors to anyone willing to buy.
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shadowblade

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2017, 08:09:01 AM »

Agree. Sony will be doing only damage to itself if they don't sell the sensors they make, and they make a lot of sensors. I'm sure they probably keep the best out of the factory for themselves (with CMOS you can always have some sensors with a bunch of dead pixels or some other defects that lower slightly the performance but are still usable). They do make a profit selling sensors to others, while the internal camera division doesn't have to pay for them (or they just move money around to cover costs).

Sony knows well they don't have anything that can compete with Canon and Nikon in their respective markets, so they will only be losing money by cutting Nikon away. Even cutting supply to other MILC makers like Olympus and Fuji will be bad for their business, as those will just find someone else to get the sensors from.

Competitors are going to sell their cameras no matter what, people buy them not for the sensors but for the features. Sony isn't stupid and knows this well, this is why they will never stop selling sensors to anyone willing to buy.


No-one said Sony's going to choke off the sensor supply entire. Just that they won't sell them their best ones.

There's no reason Sony has to sell Nikon/Pentax their best sensors when their second best are already better than anyone else's best. If Sony keeps their best model of sensor for themselves, and sells the second-best, Nikon, Pentax and others are still going to buy it. It's not like they can make a better one themselves, or buy it from elsewhere. It's Sony's second-best or nothing.

Then consumers are left with a choice - move to Sony if you want the best sensor (helped by Metabones and other adapters to ease the transition), or stick with Nikon if you want to use their features. Sony wins either way - either you buy their camera, or you buy their sensor. Meanwhile, Sony continues improving the other parts of the camera (AF, EVFs, etc.), capitalising on the aspects that cannot be replicated without real-time through-the-sensor focusing, while gradually winning converts over as they maintain their sensor edge and improve their lens collection and other features.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2017, 09:02:52 AM »

Hi,

I guess it is more like Sony is making some sensors for Sony imaging. The 42 MP sensor may be such a sensor. We have at least not seen it in a non Sony camera.

It is also feasible that a customer, say Nikon, specifies a sensor and pays for development costs. Nikon may have exclusive rights for that sensor for a period of time. The Nikon D800 sensor may be an example of that.

Best regards
Erik



No-one said Sony's going to choke off the sensor supply entire. Just that they won't sell them their best ones.

There's no reason Sony has to sell Nikon/Pentax their best sensors when their second best are already better than anyone else's best. If Sony keeps their best model of sensor for themselves, and sells the second-best, Nikon, Pentax and others are still going to buy it. It's not like they can make a better one themselves, or buy it from elsewhere. It's Sony's second-best or nothing.

Then consumers are left with a choice - move to Sony if you want the best sensor (helped by Metabones and other adapters to ease the transition), or stick with Nikon if you want to use their features. Sony wins either way - either you buy their camera, or you buy their sensor. Meanwhile, Sony continues improving the other parts of the camera (AF, EVFs, etc.), capitalising on the aspects that cannot be replicated without real-time through-the-sensor focusing, while gradually winning converts over as they maintain their sensor edge and improve their lens collection and other features.

davidgp

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2017, 03:42:03 AM »

Image Resource has corrected the interview: http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/03/26/sony-thailand-factory-tour-qa-mapping-out-the-future-of-the-interchangeable IR took the interview down when they realized they forgot to double check with Sony the text, as they usually do with all interviews, here is an extract:

Quote
Kenji Tanaka/Sony: As you know well, our key driver is the image sensor, and we already invested a lot of money for the image sensor development. And the sensor is a custom [design, meaning that] only Sony can use these sensors, and our strength is our in-house technology. So I invested in that and we will keep investing in the in-house technology like image sensors.

[An extended editorial note from Dave Etchells: This has been the subject of a *lot* of misinformation, misinterpretation and speculation on the 'web, so let me attempt to set the record straight...

This at first glance was new information for me; since as far as I had been aware, other manufacturers always eventually got access to the same sensors that were used in Sony cameras. Instead, Tanaka-san was saying that there would be some developments that were co-developed by Sony's camera division, and that those would of course remain proprietary.

(I'd initially said that I thought there was a time delay involved, between when Sony could use the most advanced sensors in their own cameras vs when competing camera makers had access to the tech, but they informed me that there was no public position to that effect, and particularly no timeline for that sort of thing. - I'd said that other makers got access to the most advanced sensors a year after the Sony camera engineers did, but there appears to be no such official timeline.)

What clearly seems to be the case, though, is that Sony camera engineers are able to work with Sony's sensor engineers, to develop unique system architectures that take advantage of their unique integration capabilities, when creating their own cameras.

It's important to note that this isn't in any way a matter of holding back "higher-quality" sensors to disadvantage competitors. When it comes to quantum efficiency and fundamental noise levels, we're up against fundamental physical limits, with all the manufacturers. The limiting factor in extremely high-ISO noise levels isn't an issue with the silicon or a particular fab process, it's the "shot noise" that results from random variations in how many photons arrive at each pixel in a given time. If Sony were to somehow dial back specs in the sensors they offer competing camera manufacturers, other sensor makers would rapidly step in to fill that gap.

Instead, Sony's advantage is that their camera engineers can collaborate directly with their sensor-engineering team, to jointly develop new system architectures that fully leverage their exceptional integration technology.



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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2017, 10:12:06 PM »

The clarfication is pretty clear,...

Cheers,
Bernard
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Jack Hogan

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2017, 04:16:40 AM »

Sony's advantage is that their camera engineers can collaborate directly with their sensor-engineering team, to jointly develop new system architectures that fully leverage their exceptional integration technology.

Sounds good but I wonder how effective that is in practice.  I have always marveled at how Nikon cameras seem to be able to eek something extra out of Sony sensors compared to Sony cameras.  Kudos to Nikon engineers.

Jack
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Paul2660

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2017, 07:04:23 AM »

Talk about eeking an extra amount from a Sony sensor, consider what Pentax did with the same 36MP sensor with the K1.  Still impresses me.  Amazing value.

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davidgp

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Re: Possible change in Sony for sensor supply to other companies.
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2017, 12:02:04 PM »

Sounds good but I wonder how effective that is in practice.  I have always marveled at how Nikon cameras seem to be able to eek something extra out of Sony sensors compared to Sony cameras.  Kudos to Nikon engineers

Also, I was thinking that if the D500 and D5 sensors are made by Sony... those must be specific designs for Nikon... no other manufacturer is using those 20Mpx sensors...


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