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Author Topic: Drivers Canon 4000/2000 - Print Mac / Win - Color Difr  (Read 794 times)

Abdo

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Drivers Canon 4000/2000 - Print Mac / Win - Color Difr
« on: March 16, 2017, 05:35:06 PM »

Good day.

Sorry for my English.

A few months that some problems have been occurring in the impressions by MAC.

Canon Pro 4000 Printer, I have two of them.

Since September, when a change in the Canon drives with updates from the Sierra, the colors and prints have differences.

I've even done exhaustive tests, including creating profiles, etc. I bought an X-Rite, iSis2, for absolute accuracy.

At first I even thought it might be a problem with the profile.

I have talked directly with X-Rite, who is even checking the problem of shutting down the print management in the MAC, when we will print the targets.

But this is an ongoing issue.

Now what has happened is that I went to do tests comparing the same media and using the same profile in MAC and Win.

I understand that the prints using the same settings should be absolutely the same.

And this is not what has been happening.

As you can see in the sample, impressions on the MAC are more charged.

Besides this problem, it is practically impossible to generate a correct MAC, with X-Rite, I have several examples of targets that are printed with great color deviation.

X-rite blames Canon, Canon says its drives are correct, and we who buy these products are penalized.

Anyone have any information on this situation, has anyone here already done this same test, printing on MAC and Win, on the new Canon 2000 or 4000?

What do you think ?

Thanks

Abdo

Mark D Segal

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Re: Drivers Canon 4000/2000 - Print Mac / Win - Color Difr
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2017, 05:58:03 PM »

Hi Abdi,

Firstly, never apologize for your English - it's your privilege to communicate as best you can and what you say below is very understandable.

Now, down to the technicalities:

Firstly, I downloaded and did some measurements on your test file attached to your post. Neither of them are great but the Mac one is better. The Windows one is under-saturated, highlights are partially blown out, and it has a distinct yellow bias in the grayscale and the skin tones. The Mac one is better in both respects, it's main problem being that the deep shadow areas are somewhat blocked-up. It has better neutrality than the Windows one and the highlights are OK.

There are two most likely sources of issues: (1) incoherence between the Canon driver and Sierra, or (2) a problem with the profiles.

The first suggestion is to print this file with letting the printer manage the colour. If it comes out better than the profiled result it would indicate a profiling issue. Use a Canon paper such as Canon Pro Luster for this and make sure it is selected in the driver and on the printer LCD.

The second suggestion is to generate a custom profile for this paper using your ISIS and i1Profiler. HOWEVER, to make these profiles with a Canon Pro printer on Mac, you must use Canon's Print Studio Pro printing application with "No Color Correction" selected as the colour management mode. Do this for the Pro Luster paper, making sure you have this paper selected in Print Studio Pro and in the LCD. Use the XRite 2033 patch target, measure it, and create profiles for M1, M2 and M3 and test them, see whether the results improve.
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Abdo

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Re: Drivers Canon 4000/2000 - Print Mac / Win - Color Difr
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2017, 09:59:47 PM »

Hi mark,

Thank you for your consideration and as always very kind.

I ended up solving the issue of printing on Windows and MAC and making the drives work as they should.

I'm not a Windows user, and since I had to make impressions of X-Rite targets and the MAC is having a problem, I ended up trying to understand the impressions in Windows.

Which are a bit different from MAC, but I managed to match and achieve the same results in both systems.

But still, the Canon drivers for MAC, still do not work as they should, because we are forced to select the profile no longer in the LR and yes in the Canon Print Driver to make it work perfectly.

I am in contact with both Canon and X-Rite to resolve this issue.

The printing of i1profiles Targets does not work correctly on MAC, it is only possible to print correct targets through windows.

Canon X-rite blames Canon says the problem is not hers ... but now it's getting to the point of conversation, that I'll put the two Canon and X-Rite engineers to solve the issue.

What I know the problem is not me.

Let's see ... I keep informed.

Thank you.

Abdo

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Re: Drivers Canon 4000/2000 - Print Mac / Win - Color Difr
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2017, 10:05:22 PM »

See example:

3 prints.

The first left, MAC printing on the LR, selecting ICC on the LR
The second, printing on the MAC, but selecting ICC directly from the print driver
The third, printing done in Windows.

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Re: Drivers Canon 4000/2000 - Print Mac / Win - Color Difr
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2017, 07:33:34 AM »

Hi mark,

...................
But still, the Canon drivers for MAC, still do not work as they should, because we are forced to select the profile no longer in the LR and yes in the Canon Print Driver to make it work perfectly.

I am in contact with both Canon and X-Rite to resolve this issue.

The printing of i1profiles Targets does not work correctly on MAC, it is only possible to print correct targets through windows.



Thank you.

Hi Abdo,

If there is a Canon driver problem related to Mac Sierra, I can't comment on it because I have not updated my OSX to Sierra. I am still using El Capitan. Any software updates from Apple and Adobe stay in purgatory until I am satisfied that they are totally fit for purpose. So if you are on Sierra and you get useful feedback from Canon and XRite it will be of interest to numerous readers. Though I don't know how many are experiencing the problems you are having.

That said, I'm wondering whether there is an issue of "pilot error" in your approach, so let me review a few key factors with you just in case. I don't quite understand exactly how you printed the profiling targets, so let's explore. Firstly, if by "Lr" you mean Adobe Lightroom, you should not be printing profiling targets through Lightroom if that is what you are doing. You need to use Canon's Print Studio Pro Plugin to Photoshop with "No Color Correction" selected in the colour management mode of Print Studio Pro. Secondly, you need to select a Media Type in Print Studio Pro and on the printer LCD that provides the closest match to the paper you are profiling. That Media Type must be one of those in the Canon driver, unless you use the Canon Media Configuration Tool to create a new, customized Media Type and make sure to register it into the Canon printer driver system, following their instructions for implementing these steps. Thirdly, when you use the profile you created in i1Profiler, i1Profiler is supposed to send that profile to your profiles folder (Library>ColorSync>Profiles). For printing photographs with that profile you can use Lightroom, but the new profile will NOT show up in Lightroom's pull-down menu of selectable profiles until you go to the Color Management section of the Print Module, click open the Profiles drop-down pane, and select "Other", which will open a path to all your profiles. From that list you must select the new profile by checking the box to the left of the name. From then onward, your new profile will be available in LR.
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Re: Drivers Canon 4000/2000 - Print Mac / Win - Color Difr
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2017, 08:38:26 AM »

Good Day  Mark,

I understand your suggestions and I just have to thank you.

I do not really like the idea of printing targets outside the x-rite system.

I make profiles for other clients that use MAC and need to print on their machines.

It is necessary that X-Rite fix the problem.

It is very simple to print from i1profiler and avoid errors by customers.

Watch this video, it is in Portuguese, but I believe that to see the demonstration I made.

https://youtu.be/shZcmfvp62w

Thanks

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Re: Drivers Canon 4000/2000 - Print Mac / Win - Color Difr
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2017, 09:00:46 AM »

Hi Abdo,

I'm not convinced this is an XRite problem, and there is nothing wrong with printing targets outside the XRite system if that's what it takes to get the optimal results.

Your customers, as they own Canon printers, can use Canon's provided software (at no extra cost) Print Studio Pro for generating their targets. Provided you send them the correct instructions, the procedure should work. In fact it should be easier for them because they do not need i1Profiler to do this. Only you need it to make the profiles from the target they send you.
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Abdo

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Re: Drivers Canon 4000/2000 - Print Mac / Win - Color Difr
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2017, 01:46:31 PM »

Hello Mark,

I did what you indicated, but the problem with targets on the MAC continues.

Even using Print Studio Pro, latest version 2.11.

No use, and selecting as indicated, the targets go wrong.

And this is because the MAC is not turning off color management.

On Windows this does not occur in any way because once commanded to shut down it respects.

It happens that a lot of people have been profiling on MAC and getting AM1 from several manufacturers that comes with built-in ICC, and it happens that the software is reading over another profile.

Which is completely wrong.

Many people do not notice because the colors are very close and ends up thinking that everything is right, but everything is wrong.

The profile to be generated can not contain any previous information.

Another situation is that it is much simpler to use i1profiler than asking someone to install Print Studio, which is a very bad software, full of problems, which does not help absoluttely nothing, it is a confusing software.

But anyway I did the test, thank you for trying to help.

And see there, in the photo, it happens exactly when I print through I1profiler.

Because ?

Because even though you're commandeering Print Studio to shut down it does not shut down the manager and pick up an ICC profile that is stored inside the AM1.

Well I hope Canon and X-Rite solve the issue.

I've done all the tests you can imagine.

I to install only one copy of Yosemite + Driver Pro 4000 and X-Rite, the targets come out exactly with the same problem.

So I think the problem is with these Canon drivers, when you're asked to shut down the management and it can not.

Thank you.

Mark D Segal

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Re: Drivers Canon 4000/2000 - Print Mac / Win - Color Difr
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2017, 02:04:23 PM »

Abdo, as far as I know, the problem is with the Mac operating system - my understanding is that there is no way to actually turn off colour management in OSX. So these other applications, whether ACPU, i1Profiler or Print Studio Pro are in reality implementing a workaround which I understand is being called a "null transform" that is supposed to effectively neutralize the effect of OSX colour management. The colour management community has been complaining about this situation to no avail for years. Apple won't listen and re-enable a true no colour management option in OSX. So we are stuck with one of the three workarounds - or to use a RIP (expensive). I have tested all three applications for generating targets and I obtained the most accurate results from Print Studio Pro (which you can see in my Pro2000 Review), very much as the Canon technical people in New York told me I would. So based on their recommendation, the same also recommended on this Forum by Marcin Kaluza (an experienced commercial Canon printer user) and my own testing of all three options, I am satisfied that UP TO BUT NOT INCLUDING SIERRA, this combination of the Canon driver, PSP and El Capitan was fine. Apple has been known to introduce changes to things they don't tell anyone about, so it is conceivable they have screwed-up colour management with Sierra in yet another way that Canon hasn't caught up with, but if they had done that, I would have expected to see far more complaints coming onto this Forum (and others); but the fact is that we have not. So maybe they haven't re-mucked it up again. Hard to say. I've reached the limit of what I know about this situation, as inquiries for deeper explanations and better workarounds have yielded no answers. Perhaps you will be fortunate. And perhaps others knowledgeable in this matter will come forward here with other insights. Keep us posted if you learn anything else on it.

Cheers,

Mark
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Abdo

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Re: Drivers Canon 4000/2000 - Print Mac / Win - Color Difr
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2017, 08:27:10 AM »

Good morning Mark,

As always you very kind and patient with my questions, I know that I am very annoying..rsrs

But now you put me in the situation I already had some information, but now it's made very clear to me at least.

Curious I have talked so much with X-Rite and Canon, but none of them is able to admit this situation and say,

We are not able to turn off color management because this is Apple's responsibility and what we do is adapt the best we are getting, and whoever really wants to do the right thing, should use Windows.

But as always the manufacturers end up hiding the problems, because few would test and notice differences like these that I am doing.

And there ... follow the life ....

Well I think that we raise the subject here clearly and believe it will help many users to understand what has been happening.

I just have to thank you for the tremendous contribution you have made.

If I have any success with Canon or X-Rite on this subject I keep you informed.

Abdo

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Re: Drivers Canon 4000/2000 - Print Mac / Win - Color Difr
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2017, 08:55:06 AM »

Hi Abdo,

You are welcome, you are not annoying, and I, and no doubt others, look forward to anything more you learn from the manufacturers or your own experience.

There is one additional point I should clarify from my remarks above. I've been also told that when Apple develops changes to their operating system, they send other developers and equipment manufacturers the updated packages they need for adapting their own stuff to the new operating system changes about six months before commercial release. IF in fact that really happens all the time (I have no idea) one would think that firms such as Canon etc. would have updated their applications accordingly. This is how it is supposed to work. These companies are supposed to be coordinated at least enough so that end users such as us will not experience disconnects making updates. To the extent some of these updates also embed security enhancements, one would also think it in the greater interest of the industry as a whole to facilitate that people actually update when the updates become available; but if people fear updating because of the disruption it has been known to cause, then indeed the purpose is not served. I would also note that printer manufacturers have a particular interest in things working properly, because if they don't, it spoils the atmosphere for printing and the market for their printers - the last thing they want; and I know they do employ technical people fully qualified to address such problems. Which deepens the mystery about why we get more complaints than in principle we should be getting about broken printing chains. Perhaps given the complexity of these systems when certain things get changed the process of adaptation or repair is more difficult than we may imagine. Again, I don't know, but just enumerating considerable possibilities.

Now, when certain things stop working as previously experienced immediately pursuant to an update of one thing or another, one must logically be led to believe that the update broke something. OR, there is a possibility of the user not having adapted to some new requirement of the updated environment, and it can take a fair amount of patient reviewing and testing to work out what that may be. In your case it seems you have done a great deal to determine this. So let me end-up in this post by asking whether you have tried making profiling targets in your Canon Pro-4000 using Print Studio Pro with "No Color Control" selected in the colour management section of the application and the correct Media Type in the driver and on the LCD screen of the printer. If you have, how did the profile created with this target perform?
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Re: Drivers Canon 4000/2000 - Print Mac / Win - Color Difr
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2017, 09:07:25 AM »

Hi mark,

Yes I tried Print Studio to do the targets, as you suggested.

With management disabled.

I did several tests, and one difference that occurs between Windows and MAC is if you select a simple media, ordinary paper type, Windows does it correctly.
Now the MAC seems to have a problem with that, and the colors come out completely different.
The best result on the MAC is when a Fine Art Textured Media is selected, in this case the result is the same as Windows.
I made these targets and then did the color measurement using the Pantone Color Manager and checking the colors to make sure it was not committing deviations.

In this way it seemed correct, but you see, it really takes the user to choose the correct media, not to make mistakes.

This is very complicated, I believe that many end up going wrong and can generate the wrong results.

That's why I have drawn X-Rite's attention to this, because the best would be to print directly through their software, where the environment is simple and avoid errors on the part of the users.

In my case, I will ask my users to print from Windows so I am sure that chance errors are infinitely less.

After all they are paying for this service and want to deliver the best for them.

Thank you

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Re: Drivers Canon 4000/2000 - Print Mac / Win - Color Difr
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2017, 10:47:38 AM »

Hi Abdo,

OK, so you found that you could get acceptable results using Print Studio Pro with Mac, depending on the choice of Media Type. That's good. I would just add several observations about all this:

(1) The choice of an appropriate Media Type is important because it determines the ink laydown characteristics of the printer. In working with Media Types two things are important: (i) select a Media Type which is closest to the character of the paper you are profiling (weight, finish, PK or MK, OBA/no OBA, etc.); (ii) that same Media Type used for making the profile also needs to be the one selected for printing real photographs with the profile so created. As long as these two conditions are respected, the process should work quite well. You need to tell your customers which Media Type they should use for printing the targets you will be profiling, as well as the necessary instructions for making the targets with PSP, and then tell them to use only that same Media Type for making prints with the profiles you provide them.

(2) I don't think it's a good idea advising customers who work with OSX that they should equip themselves with Windows for making profiling targets or doing their printing. It is safer and easier guiding them into use of PSP on Mac for making the profiling targets. Once they have a good profile they can print through LR or PS on Mac and obtain good results. 

(3) i1Profiler isn't easy for newcomers. The interface is dreadful and its instruction set even worse. As many of your customers may not know that i1Profiler even exists, there is probably little mileage pushing this on them either. But they do have Canon printers equipped with PSP and it is quite easy software to use. I think it would be a better use of your time making sure your customers know how to use PSP for printing the targets they send you rather than expecting much more from XRite in this regard. I should add that i1Profiler can be used for printing targets with Canon printers, but in my experience the success has been a mixed bag - sometimes OK, sometimes not (and I don't know why), which when you are in business you don't want.
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Re: Drivers Canon 4000/2000 - Print Mac / Win - Color Difr
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2017, 07:48:22 PM »

Thanks Mark,

I will take into consideration your recommendations regarding customer service.
And I always like to talk to them before I run, so that will not be a problem.
As for I1profiler, I have to agree with you it on MAC is very inconsistent, sometimes shows strange results.
I keep thinking that they are not very concerned about our type of market, they are more focused on big graphic companies and we are the annoying ones of their business.
After my last email with them to 4 days, and doing everything they asked for ... it's gone 4 days .. I hope you are checking the product I'm providing.

Thanks again for your help.
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