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Author Topic: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back  (Read 3748 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2017, 11:07:53 AM »

Alan, First you didn't ask me why what I say is negative, you just said it was none of my business (which is BS and questioning my right to free speech). You can't win that argument so now I'm suddenly anti or negative about America, but point me to one post where I'm negative to America as a whole. You can't! I'm seriously critical of Trump's actions and I don't agree with some of the statements you make about his policies. But that's something entirely different then being anti-American.
You certainly have the right of free speech.  However, when you visit someone in their home, it's impolite to criticize the furniture they selected.  You don't live there and it's none of your business.  If what we do effects you, then it's another matter.  But most of the stuff we do has little or no bearing on you any more than what you do with Turkish ambassadors means to us.  That's your call.  All I ask is your respect our calls.  It's rude to butt into other people's business. 
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2017, 11:12:28 AM »

He is given a generous choice: convert, pay tax, or die  ;)

Or on a lighter note:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqLA4pSahYY

Cheers,
Bart
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pegelli

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2017, 11:19:08 AM »

You certainly have the right of free speech.  However, when you visit someone in their home, it's impolite to criticize the furniture they selected.  You don't live there and it's none of your business.  If what we do effects you, then it's another matter.  But most of the stuff we do has little or no bearing on you any more than what you do with Turkish ambassadors means to us.  That's your call.  All I ask is your respect our calls.  It's rude to butt into other people's business.
Bullshit Alan, it's rude to call somebody anti-American if they only criticize Trump and his policies. That's far from the truth and populist. That's the problem I have with the way you conduct this discussion, you first create a caricature (you're anti-American) and then criticize the fact I should be more neutral. However the point I'm trying to make is that the caricature you're painting is wrong. I am not anti American or negative on America as a whole. I'm only critical on some Trump measures and policies and mainly because of the way they impact the rest of the world. That's not criticizing the furniture of someone I visit, that's asking my neighbor to cut the overhanging branches from the bushes in his garden. That is 100% my business and has nothing to do with your implication that I might not respect the calls you're making. 
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 11:22:29 AM by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2017, 12:20:09 PM »

Bullshit Alan, it's rude to call somebody anti-American if they only criticize Trump and his policies. That's far from the truth and populist. That's the problem I have with the way you conduct this discussion, you first create a caricature (you're anti-American) and then criticize the fact I should be more neutral. However the point I'm trying to make is that the caricature you're painting is wrong. I am not anti American or negative on America as a whole. I'm only critical on some Trump measures and policies and mainly because of the way they impact the rest of the world. That's not criticizing the furniture of someone I visit, that's asking my neighbor to cut the overhanging branches from the bushes in his garden. That is 100% my business and has nothing to do with your implication that I might not respect the calls you're making. 
  I did not say in my post that foreigners (not referring to you in particular) could not criticize Trump if his policies effected the poster.  That's on limits because his policies could effect you such as discussion about NATO.  But the ad hominin attacks on Trump regarding policies he wants to implement or just attacks against his personality should be off limits.  He is our President.  He was elected President and represents America.  You insult him, the Office of the President, and the American people when you casually attack him and laugh at him.  There's nothing stopping non-Americans from doing this.  But I feel insulted when you do.  I don't attack your Prime Minister like that.  If I did, then I would be wrong too. 

I also believe that many who post here are anti-American.  Every post is negative about us. It's really tiring.   Certainly they have the right to do this.  But I equally have the right to attack back and make fun of them.  What's good for the goose  is good for the gander . 
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pegelli

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2017, 12:32:16 PM »

  I did not say in my post that foreigners (not referring to you in particular) could not criticize Trump if his policies effected the poster.  That's on limits because his policies could effect you such as discussion about NATO.  But the ad hominin attacks on Trump regarding policies he wants to implement or just attacks against his personality should be off limits.  He is our President.  He was elected President and represents America.  You insult him, the Office of the President, and the American people when you casually attack him and laugh at him.  There's nothing stopping non-Americans from doing this.  But I feel insulted when you do.  I don't attack your Prime Minister like that.  If I did, then I would be wrong too. 

I also believe that many who post here are anti-American.  Every post is negative about us. It's really tiring.   Certainly they have the right to do this.  But I equally have the right to attack back and make fun of them.  What's good for the goose  is good for the gander .
All well and good Alan, but you personally called me anti-American. Still you failed to come up with a post where I did or an admission you were mistaken. On the contrary, I get a multitude of generalizations and off-topic remarks about your hurt feelings and implications of things I did not say. You're free to make critical remarks about the Belgian, Dutch or any other prime minister, my feelings won't be hurt. But calling me anti-American out of the blue deserves an admission that you were mistaken.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 12:36:14 PM by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

BartvanderWolf

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2017, 12:51:41 PM »

...  He is our President.  He was elected President and represents America.  You insult him, the Office of the President, and the American people when you casually attack him and laugh at him.

Alan, If a person makes a mockery out of his representing the USA, he/she should expect to called out on it. Also, given the divide he's creating inside the USA (he could have stopped when Hillary was defeated, but chose to ramp it up with the weight of his function behind him), it looks more like he is only representing 50% (-3 million) of the Americans (and not even those it seems).

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There's nothing stopping non-Americans from doing this.  But I feel insulted when you do.  I don't attack your Prime Minister like that.  If I did, then I would be wrong too.

Not really, if he makes an idiot out of himself or does a lousy job, he'd be asking for it. I'm sorry if you feel insulted, but he started.

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I also believe that many who post here are anti-American.  Every post is negative about us.

I think you are wrong about that, and are taking it too personal. Don't mistake criticism on what is perceived as a global destabilizer of peace and potential renewed top polluter of the planet, with something directed at you personally. After you cast your vote, he is responsible not you.

I can only speak for my small part of the world, but here we tend to use the, say, more British type of directness in our conversation but mean no disrespect (unless deserved). Across only one border, it is already quite different. Culture differences and language barriers, are to be taken into account when weighing responses. In fact, most of the posts in the coffee corner (even with heated debate) seem to be quite reasonably supported with e.g. references to source material (however flawed the objectivity of the source may be).

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2017, 12:54:49 PM »

Pieter: I wasn't directing my comments to you in particular but rather to those who always find a reason to post anti-American comments.  However, since you feel that my comments were directed to you, then I was wrong and I apologize.  I should have been more careful in the way I said it. 

Certainly Trump deserved a lot of criticism but it's the ad-hominin attacks that get old after awhile.  It's the "mean spirited" words from non-Americans that should be off-limits.  Additionally, this is not some anonymous blog where no one knows anyone else.  We're all part of the same photo community and should try to keep it respectful.  So, I should not insult your prime minister even though you might not mind.  Others of your countrymen might.   
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2017, 12:58:36 PM »

He is given a generous choice: convert, pay tax, or die  ;)
^^not really.  Babel is pretty much over the hill and either Turkey or China are the only places that would pay him to play football.
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pegelli

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2017, 01:07:49 PM »

I should have been more careful in the way I said it. 
Thanks Alan, agree we're photographer friends who disagree on some politics. But I think the former is more important than the latter.

For the rest (at the risk of insulting you, which I don't want to do) is that I agree with Bart's post above, if Trump makes a fool out of himself he should be called out on it. It seems a lot of criticism the non-American spew here (that you get tired of) are in line with what a large portion of the US people think about him. Jeff, who started this thread, is a full bred American and his remarks are not kind either. So on an international forum like this I think you'll have to accept that not everybody outside the US agrees with him, gives their opinion, and not be personally insulted by it.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2017, 01:45:29 PM »

Thanks Alan, agree we're photographer friends who disagree on some politics. But I think the former is more important than the latter.

For the rest (at the risk of insulting you, which I don't want to do) is that I agree with Bart's post above, if Trump makes a fool out of himself he should be called out on it. It seems a lot of criticism the non-American spew here (that you get tired of) are in line with what a large portion of the US people think about him. Jeff, who started this thread, is a full bred American and his remarks are not kind either. So on an international forum like this I think you'll have to accept that not everybody outside the US agrees with him, gives their opinion, and not be personally insulted by it.

Jeff's an American.  Although I don't agree with many of the things he says or the way he says it, he's a compatriot.  However, when two brothers disagree, it's impolite for an outsider to butt in and take sides.  Again, for the third time, I'm referring to the personal attacks on Trump like calling him an idiot or an orange hair monster or a Fascist.   If his policies effect you and your country, I want you to post your concerns how these are a problem.  I could learn something.  Also, knocking every American decision that only effects us is also impolite. 

How would you feel if I posted a comment that the Dutch were really acting like bigots regarding the way they treated the Turkish ambassador and other Turkish representatives.  Blocking entry had more to do with anti-Turk politics before the election than the official reasons the prime minister gave.  Their secret feelings are they'd like to get rid of Muslim and Turks in their country if they could find others who would work at the same peon wages.  Turkish-Dutch citizens  are treated like immigrants.  They're not considered Dutch by the real Dutch.   Erdogan was half right when he called your prime minister a anti-Turk Fascist and a remnant Nazi.  And the bigoted, anti Muslim Geert, who despite his loss, represents many Dutch.  He will win next time if there's a big riot in the Turkish community or a Muslim terrorist blows something up there.  By the way, isn't Trump Dutch?  Maybe he learned from the Dutch Geert. 

I apologize for my last paragraph.  But I wanted to show you the kind of anti-American or anti-Trump comments we feel from many non-Americans over here when they post.    The comments become insulting.  Can you see how I feel? 
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2017, 01:52:03 PM »

Attacking Muslims with horses, dogs and batons a few days before election had only one purpose: to steal votes from Gaart. A brilliant political move by the prime minister.

pegelli

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2017, 02:15:41 PM »

How would you feel if I posted a comment that the Dutch were really acting like bigots regarding the way they treated the Turkish ambassador and other Turkish representatives.  Blocking entry had more to do with anti-Turk politics before the election than the official reasons the prime minister gave.  Their secret feelings are they'd like to get rid of Muslim and Turks in their country if they could find others who would work at the same peon wages.  Turkish-Dutch citizens  are treated like immigrants.  They're not considered Dutch by the real Dutch.   Erdogan was half right when he called your prime minister a anti-Turk Fascist and a remnant Nazi.  And the bigoted, anti Muslim Geert, who despite his loss, represents many Dutch.  He will win next time if there's a big riot in the Turkish community or a Muslim terrorist blows something up there.  By the way, isn't Trump Dutch?  Maybe he learned from the Dutch Geert. 
Sorry Alan, I would not be any way insulted by these words. I will just try to use logical arguments to show you're way off base in left field. You might even be in the stands trying to catch a home run. 
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pieter, aka pegelli

pegelli

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2017, 02:18:00 PM »

Attacking Muslims with horses, dogs and batons a few days before election had only one purpose: to steal votes from Gaart. A brilliant political move by the prime minister.
Yup, just like Ferguson, playing hardball on protesters to gain conservative electorate ;)

Just kidding, but you're off base as much as Alan on this one.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2017, 02:59:05 PM »

Sorry Alan, I would not be any way insulted by these words. I will just try to use logical arguments to show you're way off base in left field. You might even be in the stands trying to catch a home run. 
  I'm glad you weren't insulted.  I'm waiting for your counter arguments. 
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kers

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2017, 03:14:57 PM »

Attacking Muslims with horses, dogs and batons a few days before election had only one purpose: to steal votes from Gaart. A brilliant political move by the prime minister.
You are making cynical jokes again right? - at least i hope so...
At least you are not president of the US of A, but still do not think they are funny.

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Pieter Kers
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pegelli

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2017, 03:26:09 PM »

  I'm glad you weren't insulted.  I'm waiting for your counter arguments.
Because you asked so kindly, I thought you never would ;)

the Dutch were really acting like bigots regarding the way they treated the Turkish ambassador and other Turkish representatives
It was the other way around. The Turkish ambassador lied to the Dutch authorities. He said nobody was coming while he knew one of his ministers was underway. Until the Turks started to threaten with sanctions the Dutch government negotiated in good faith.
Blocking entry had more to do with anti-Turk politics before the election than the official reasons the prime minister gave.  Their secret feelings are they'd like to get rid of Muslim and Turks in their country if they could find others who would work at the same peon wages. Turkish-Dutch citizens  are treated like immigrants. They're not considered Dutch by the real Dutch.
Do you know how many immigrants from Turkish origin sit Dutch parliament and other official functions. There is no problems with Turkish immigrants who integrate in the Dutch society and they can reach high levels in government and private enterprises. They can keep their historical religion and customs as long as they stick to the rules. Once they're troublemakers we like them out, but that's the minority, the majority of these immigrants are hardworking and well respected in the Dutch society. Same with other immigrant nationalities. You read too many populist hate media if you think anything else.
Erdogan was half right when he called your prime minister a anti-Turk Fascist and a remnant Nazi.
I'm going to repeat what the prime minister said: "We're not going to lower ourselves to that level of historical falsehoods". Before Erdogan criticizes the Dutch government he should let one anti government demonstration go ahead in Turkey. Just count how many political opponents of Erdogan end up in jail and you know his real character and what he is after. 
And the bigoted, anti Muslim Geert, who despite his loss, represents many Dutch.  He will win next time if there's a big riot in the Turkish community or a Muslim terrorist blows something up there.
Very unlikely, but time will tell. Your crystal ball is as good as mine ;)
By the way, isn't Trump Dutch?  Maybe he learned from the Dutch Geert.
This is probably the only point you might be right, or let me say it differently, it sure looks like it (sorry, couldn't resist puling your leg, pls. don't feel personally insulted).
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 03:38:42 PM by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

BartvanderWolf

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2017, 03:37:38 PM »

How would you feel if I posted a comment that the Dutch were really acting like bigots regarding the way they treated the Turkish ambassador and other Turkish representatives.

Not Pieter, but allow me to respond. I would feel that you are wrong. Not something to get upset about, because you do not have the information that we have. The mayor of Rotterdam is trying for months already (even before the failed coup in Turkey) to get the different Turkish minded factions at his table, in an attempt to defuse the tensions between them. Some of the groups are well integrated in the Durch society, others despite being 3rd generation native Dutch only watch Turkish TV via satellite dish and have relative poor  language skills and pronunciation. The latter identify more with Turkey than with the Netherlands, despite their schooling and other benefits that life has to offer. On could say that their integration has failed.

That failure is partially a Dutch shortcoming and partly a shortcoming in their upbringing. But part of it is also caused by 'the long arm of Ankara'. Erdogan talks about these native Dutch citizens as Turkish citizens and instructs them through the consulate to e.g. report Gülen (former friend but now ideological adversary) sympathizers so that their family in Turkey can be arrested/fired/worse and passports confiscated.

The different factions are so opposite in their appreciation of the Turkish meddling in their daily lives that they avoid being seen together, because of the potential consequences for family and wellbeing. This occasionally escalates in violence, because they are so passionate.

The last thing that the Mayor of Rotterdam needs is people physically hurting or killing each other in the streets of his city. Doesn't seem like an unreasonable desire. So when a foreign power, deliberately(!) tries to stir up trouble, and disrupt the sensitive balance to a. gain support for a referendum to convert Turkey in an autocracy, and  b. provoke a reaction that can be used at home (in Turkey) to play the 'blame the enemy and support your powerful leader' game, that doesn't help, to put it mildly.

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Blocking entry had more to do with anti-Turk politics before the election than the official reasons the prime minister gave.

There are no anti-Turk politics. Turkey is a NATO partner and the Netherland is the largest direct investor (21 billion Euro annually) in Turkey. We helped reinforce Turkey’s air defenses against the threat of Syrian rockets by stationing some 200 Dutch troops with our Patriot anti-ballistic missile deployment in Adana from 2013 to 2015 (when the systems were returned for upgrading, and the Spanish took our place). http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_113858.htm and http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_116890.htm

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Their secret feelings are they'd like to get rid of Muslim and Turks in their country if they could find others who would work at the same peon wages.  Turkish-Dutch citizens  are treated like immigrants.  They're not considered Dutch by the real Dutch.

Nope. In fact, the Mayor of Rotterdam is a Muslim of Moroccan decent and is considered to be one of the best Mayors in the country.

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Erdogan was half right when he called your prime minister a anti-Turk Fascist and a remnant Nazi.

He is not 50% but 100% wrong, and only uses such words (and worse) as a provocation. Our PM responded that he would not lower himself to such levels by even taking such remarks seriously. And that all transpired after the Turks deliberately tried to escalate things, not before it happened. Similar insults were aimed at Germany earlier.

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And the bigoted, anti Muslim Geert, who despite his loss, represents many Dutch.

We have similar extremists as you do in the USA, and Wilders' party was elected (partly as a protest vote) by some 13% (was 10.1% prior election) of the voters.

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He will win next time if there's a big riot in the Turkish community or a Muslim terrorist blows something up there.  By the way, isn't Trump Dutch?  Maybe he learned from the Dutch Geert.

Not if we don't feed the troll attempts. Or, as our PM tends to say, don't react on each and every piece of red meat that is flung into the arena.

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I apologize for my last paragraph.  But I wanted to show you the kind of anti-American or anti-Trump comments we feel from many non-Americans over here when they post.    The comments become insulting.  Can you see how I feel?

Understood, but misplaced. When the discussion is based or false information, it gives an opportunity to correct it or explain what's wrong about the interpretation.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 07:54:42 PM by BartvanderWolf »
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pegelli

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2017, 03:48:04 PM »

Not Pieter,
Well, I also responded but thank you for the additional detailed insights you provided.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2017, 03:52:34 PM »

You are making cynical jokes again right? - at least i hope so...

Why? You think that Dutch politicians somehow differ from the rest of the world and are not capable of calculated maneuvers? By the way, France allowed the same gatherings you blocked, and nothing happened. On the contrary, because you blocked it, you had more public order disturbance in the backlash demonstrations than if you allowed it.

If I were in your prime minister's shoes (clompen?), I would do the same thing: act tough, use horses, dogs and batons to prove to the electorate that, with me in charge, they don't really need that "crazy" Gaart guy to protect them from the "scum."

pegelli

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2017, 03:59:05 PM »

Slobodan, it's Geert (not Gaart) and klompen (not clompen). However very much in line with the other nonsense you put in your post ;)
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