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Author Topic: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back  (Read 3090 times)

pegelli

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2017, 03:42:54 PM »

Slobodan showed your true colors.  When it comes to your country's security, you strap your revolver on.  But when it comes to America's security, you'd have us bend over and take it in the butt.  Give me a break.  You're just anti-American  hypocrite.   
Alan, that's just populist bullshit to find a scapegoat (very similar to what Erdogan and the Turkish government are doing at the moment). Show me one post where I (or even the collective we) denied the US (or Trump) the right to control their borders. It's the way in which he does it that's under scrutiny. I am not anti-American. I lived there for 3 years, worked my whole career for an American company and my youngest daughter is a US citizen. I just don't like some of the things the POTUS is doing at the moment but calling that hypocrite and anti-American is over the top and uncalled for. 
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2017, 03:52:56 PM »

Nope:
1: They didn't follow the rules, same situation as for the US, no Visa or ESTA and you can't even get on the plane, let alone in the country. Don't see any problem.
2: Our souls do not get harmed by a few trampled tulips, but fighting and damage (destruction) of public and private property was likely and needed to be prevented. Remember Ferguson in the US?
3: A lot of recent actions by the Turkish government are unprecedented, and as Alan said in the Trump II thread: "you don't lock your door after you're burgled". 

Similar to what America wants to do.  We don't tell you not to take measures to protect your country's interest and security.  You'd be foolish not too.  So why don't you give us the same measure of support?  Instead, all we get from Europeans is a knee-jerk anti-American response that supports viewpoints that go against American interests.  And please don't tell us we're foolish.  You are not us.  We don't tell you what to do?   You don't see the threats the same way we don't see the threats you see from the Turks.  How about if we each give the other the benefit of the doubt and respect that we're different and see and experience things differently?  After all, 9-11 happened in America. 
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pegelli

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2017, 04:01:39 PM »

Similar to what America wants to do.  We don't tell you not to take measures to protect your country's interest and security.  You'd be foolish not too.  So why don't you give us the same measure of support?  Instead, all we get from Europeans is a knee-jerk anti-American response that supports viewpoints that go against American interests.  And please don't tell us we're foolish.  You are not us.  We don't tell you what to do?   You don't see the threats the same way we don't see the threats you see from the Turks.  How about if we each give the other the benefit of the doubt and respect that we're different and see and experience things differently?  After all, 9-11 happened in America.
Alan, you didn't get my point. Point me to one post where I deny the US the right to do the same. I'm all for clear vetting and not letting the bad guys in, but for petesake then make rules that have that effect and not some phony, discriminatory symbolism to appease his voters but doesn't result in any increase in security because the real bad guys are still unaffected by the new EO.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2017, 04:02:35 PM »

Alan, that's just populist bullshit to find a scapegoat (very similar to what Erdogan and the Turkish government are doing at the moment). Show me one post where I (or even the collective we) denied the US (or Trump) the right to control their borders. It's the way in which he does it that's under scrutiny. I am not anti-American. I lived there for 3 years, worked my whole career for an American company and my youngest daughter is a US citizen. I just don't like some of the things the POTUS is doing at the moment but calling that hypocrite and anti-American is over the top and uncalled for. 

Pieter:  I was addressing Slobodan's responses to Bart not you.  In any case, there is an awful lot of knee-jerk anti-Americanism here by non-Americans.   It gets tiring.   
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pegelli

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2017, 04:08:43 PM »

Pieter:  I was addressing Slobodan's responses to Bart not you.  In any case, there is an awful lot of knee-jerk anti-Americanism here by non-Americans.   It gets tiring.
Well, the way you're describing it is that the whole liberal side of Americans is knee-jerking right along with the non-Americans. So I think you're mistaking anti-Trump sentiments for anti-Americanism.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2017, 04:13:32 PM »

Alan, you didn't get my point. Point me to one post where I deny the US the right to do the same. I'm all for clear vetting and not letting the bad guys in, but for petesake then make rules that have that effect and not some phony, discriminatory symbolism to appease his voters but doesn't result in any increase in security because the real bad guys are still unaffected by the new EO.
Europeans always butt into how we do things.  We don't butt in to how you do things.  If you want to keep Turks out, whatever the reason, well that's your business.  If we want to keep people from Yemen, Libyan, the Sudan and others out, for whatever the reasons, what business is it of yours? Why do you always feel you need to be involved?   Maybe I should take it as a compliment that America is so important that everyone wants to say something. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2017, 04:15:21 PM »

Well, the way you're describing it is that the whole liberal side of Americans is knee-jerking right along with the non-Americans. So I think you're mistaking anti-Trump sentiments for anti-Americanism.
Of course they're political debates in America.  We're always debating.  But why do you feel that it's necessary for you to join one side or the other?  It's none of your business. 
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2017, 04:17:36 PM »

...you're mistaking anti-Trump sentiments for anti-Americanism.

Isn't that one and the same thing? Isn't Trump the stereotypical American? Loud, boisterous, fat, rich, arrogant, obnoxious, a braggart, jerk, thinking he can buy everything with money, even mail-order brides? You hate Trump, you hate Americans. ;)

pegelli

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2017, 04:20:03 PM »

It's none of your business.
I just explained in one of the posts above why it is my business and secondly this is an international forum where free speech is encouraged (as long as it is civil).
I would counter your claim that it's none of your business to tell me where I can and cannot exercise my freedom of speech.

Maybe you can start you're own thread called "Trump III, only for US citizens". I'll promise to keep out of that one  :P, not because I have to, but because I would simply honour your request at my own will.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 04:32:18 PM by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

pegelli

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2017, 04:24:49 PM »

Isn't that one and the same thing? Isn't Trump the stereotypical American? Loud, boisterous, fat, rich, arrogant, obnoxious, a braggart, jerk, thinking he can buy everything with money, even mail-order brides? You hate Trump, you hate Americans. ;)
That's too simple Slobodan, you can't get off the hook that easy. If I remember correctly Alan introduced the term "trump-Hater". I don't hate Trump, I don't hate Americans, but I'm still very critical of some of the measures he is taking, but I think that's something different.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2017, 04:31:45 PM »

...But why do you feel that it's necessary for you to join one side or the other?  It's none of your business. 

Since we are meddling in every single country under the sun (and moon) affairs, it is only fair that they care about our business too ;)

BartvanderWolf

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2017, 07:41:32 PM »

And as a civil democratic country, unlike Turkey, we have allowed a demonstration march, requested by 3 Turkish organizations, for 'freedom of expression' (as a reaction to 'police violence') to take place tomorrow in Rotterdam between 17:00-19:00h.

Well, according to local news sources,

"the Pro-Turkish demonstration in Rotterdam, planned for this Friday, has been retracted by the organizers.

A spokesperson for the city confirmed that. Earlier this day, Mayor Aboutaleb had agreed with the request for the protest march. The demonstration was requested by 3 Turkish organizations who want to plea for the right of free speech of Turks in the Netherlands.

The organization claims that they cannot vouch for the safety of the participants. That page has now been removed from Facebook. According to the website DutchTurks.nl various Turk-Dutch organizations have supposedly announced that they would not participate in the demonstration."

EDIT after new information: The reason for canceling might have to do with tensions between different factions of Turkish oriented Dutch citizens. That's the very reason that the previous weekend police had to take the security measures to avoid confrontations between rivaling groups. There are groups that are Pro Erdogan, and they a.o. snitch on other groups and label them as Gülen supporters, which results in arrests in Turkey of family members because Erdogan claims that Gülen was responsible for the failed coup. Attempts by the Mayor to get the groups around one table to discuss the issues and reduce tension have failed sofar, for months already.

EDIT: Apparently the Mayor succeeded today in getting different factions around the table, although no transcripts or list of participant's names will be published, to protect the participants again retaliatory actions.

A bit of a strange development, but of course nobody is obliged to protest, and nobody wants to escalate things further (except Turkey).

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 08:39:15 AM by BartvanderWolf »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2017, 08:54:18 PM »

I just explained in one of the posts above why it is my business and secondly this is an international forum where free speech is encouraged (as long as it is civil).
I would counter your claim that it's none of your business to tell me where I can and cannot exercise my freedom of speech.

Maybe you can start you're own thread called "Trump III, only for US citizens". I'll promise to keep out of that one  :P, not because I have to, but because I would simply honour your request at my own will.
I'm not questioning your right of free speech.  I'm asking why everything you say about America is so negative?  Since you lived here for 3 years, and worked for an American company for your whole career, and your daughter is an American citizen, I would think you'd have a more pro-America attitude, or at least more balanced. Maybe Slobodan is right.  We're always butting into the affairs of the world.  My new recommendation is we should pull back into Fortress America as I thought Trump wanted and do as George Washington admonished us to stay out of foreign entanglements- like NATO, SEATO, ANZUS, etc.  With savings from less military spending, we could pay for national health care and help those people in the rust belt.  .  All the while we could start to pay off our national debt and get a balanced budget.
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pegelli

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2017, 02:07:14 AM »

I'm not questioning your right of free speech.  I'm asking why everything you say about America is so negative?  Since you lived here for 3 years, and worked for an American company for your whole career, and your daughter is an American citizen, I would think you'd have a more pro-America attitude, or at least more balanced. Maybe Slobodan is right.  We're always butting into the affairs of the world.  My new recommendation is we should pull back into Fortress America as I thought Trump wanted and do as George Washington admonished us to stay out of foreign entanglements- like NATO, SEATO, ANZUS, etc.  With savings from less military spending, we could pay for national health care and help those people in the rust belt.  .  All the while we could start to pay off our national debt and get a balanced budget.
Alan, First you didn't ask me why what I say is negative, you just said it was none of my business (which is BS and questioning my right to free speech). You can't win that argument so now I'm suddenly anti or negative about America, but point me to one post where I'm negative to America as a whole. You can't! I'm seriously critical of Trump's actions and I don't agree with some of the statements you make about his policies. But that's something entirely different then being anti-American.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 02:15:12 AM by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

BartvanderWolf

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2017, 09:34:17 AM »

With 99.9% of the votes counted, 80.4% of eligible voters did vote, with almost 29.000 invalid votes and almost 15.000 blank votes.

The number of returned cows is unknown.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2017, 09:38:34 AM »

They had the draw for the Europa League quarter finals today and it would have been very interesting had Ajax (Dutch) and Besiktas (Turkish) been paired up.  Alas, it wasn't to be and Ajax will play the German club Schalke.  Of course if both Ajax and Besiktas win, they could be drawn against one another later on in the competition.  I'm sure there would be a lot of political interest in such a match!!!

Alan (an Ajax fan since the days of Johan Cruyff)
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2017, 09:53:09 AM »

They had the draw for the Europa League quarter finals today and it would have been very interesting had Ajax (Dutch) and Besiktas (Turkish) been paired up.  Alas, it wasn't to be and Ajax will play the German club Schalke.  Of course if both Ajax and Besiktas win, they could be drawn against one another later on in the competition.  I'm sure there would be a lot of political interest in such a match!!!

Well, today, the Turkish delegation at the Dutch Open Karate tournament in Rotterdam didn't show up. All 47 karatekas from Turkey were absent at the start of this muti-day event. The Dutch Open is one of the largest karate tounaments in the world. Some 1200 sporters from the entire world participate. The European Championship for Seniors is held later this year in Turkey.

So, Besiktas would probably also have been AWOL if they had been playing against Ajax.

Who said that Sport unites? Not Erdogan.
One the other hand, others have said 'soccer is war'. Guess we'll never know the outcome of that soccer match.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 09:58:59 AM by BartvanderWolf »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2017, 10:03:45 AM »


One the other hand, others have said 'soccer is war'. Guess we'll never know the outcome of that soccer match.

Cheers,
Bart
The great Polish foreign correspondent, Ryszard Kapuscinski. wrote a book on exactly that topic!!  http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-394-58413-3
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kers

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2017, 10:14:19 AM »

They had the draw for the Europa League quarter finals today and it would have been very interesting had Ajax (Dutch) and Besiktas (Turkish) been paired up.  Alas, it wasn't to be and Ajax will play the German club Schalke.  Of course if both Ajax and Besiktas win, they could be drawn against one another later on in the competition.  I'm sure there would be a lot of political interest in such a match!!!

Alan (an Ajax fan since the days of Johan Cruyff)
Dutchmen Ryan Babel plays in Besiktas and even scored two times against Olympiakos Piraeus.
So far no problems inside the teams as far as i know...
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Pieter Kers
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Netherlands Elections and Turkey sending Dutch cows back
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2017, 10:16:42 AM »

Dutchmen Ryan Babel plays in Besiktas and even scored two times against Olympiakos Piraeus.
So far no problems inside the teams as far as i know...

He is given a generous choice: convert, pay tax, or die  ;)
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