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Author Topic: Video newbie Q: 4K camera with best IS  (Read 3564 times)

soboyle

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Video newbie Q: 4K camera with best IS
« on: March 13, 2017, 01:55:59 PM »

I'm out of the loop on video technology, so apologies if this question is dated. I'm looking for a 4K camera recommendation which has excellent in camera image stabilization. I'm going to be traveling on an extended trip where weight and bulk has to be kept to a minimum, but want to capture 4K video. This means hand held shooting 90% of the time on boats, hikes and traveling rough. Any recommendations for cameras that have really good IS built in, either mechanical or electronic of both?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 02:56:55 PM by soboyle »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Video newbie Q: 4K camera with best IS
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2017, 03:20:57 PM »

I'm out of the loop on video technology, so apologies if this question is dated. I'm looking for a 4K camera recommendation which has excellent in camera image stabilization. I'm going to be traveling on an extended trip where weight and bulk has to be kept to a minimum, but want to capture 4K video. This means hand held shooting 90% of the time on boats, hikes and traveling rough. Any recommendations for cameras that have really good IS built in, either mechanical or electronic of both?

Sony a7SII?

Hywel

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Re: Video newbie Q: 4K camera with best IS
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2017, 07:21:57 AM »

It's not really an answer to the question because I've not found in body stabilisation that helpful for the sort of motion you're describing. I've got a Sony A7RII and it certainly helps to have stabilisation, but it's just not on a par with an actual gimbal system for stuff like boats or walking along.

My go-to system is a GH4 on a Ronin gimbal but that's far too heavy for hiking with. I'd consider a Panasonic GH4 on a physical gimbal, something like this:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beholder-DS1-Stabilizer-Controller-Max-Weight-Handheld-Gimbal/dp/B01IT5SIOW?tag=top90f-21
(I have no experience of that particular system so do some reading around the various handheld options).


If you don't mind slightly go-pro-esque colours, and being careful with its limited dynamic range, the Osmo+ is very hard to beat:
http://store.dji.com/product/osmo-plus?from=related_products
I've only just got one but am impressed with the footage I've got so far.


Reputedly, the Olympus in body stabilisation is excellent, but I don't know how they are for shooting video.

 Cheers, Hywel



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bcooter

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Re: Video newbie Q: 4K camera with best IS
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2017, 12:36:37 PM »

Sony a7SII?

I have a mixed view of my a7sII.

First, it can keep a central subject smooth on something like a fast 1200 hp boat running through a wake.

http://russellrutherford.com/fast_skif.mov

The central subject is level, the rest warps or jellos, though in all fairness this was shot at about 60 knots in very active conditions, though just slightly smooth walking can jello the file and panning must be kept very slow.

The motion file is  low bit rate, and will band in the highlights.   Now the standard thought would be to slightly underexpose and people rave about its low light, high iso capabilities, but mine doesn't.

In fact I did a test in London last week giving it one more chance and did some test stills at 1200 iso at night and compared it to an Olympus em1 mark II and the em1 had more detail.  The sony caked and layered the subject like pushing a file to 8000 iso. 

The battery draw on the Sony is crazy.  It will burn through 70% of a battery just setting the menu up.

Grading the Sony is tough . . . takes 7 to 10 nodes in resolve to get a decent file and is not that great on skin tones.  The only upsides of the sony is its build quality is much better than the first version.

Actually the best lens for it especially if you use any autofocus is the Zeiss/Sony 24-70 A mount with the pdaf adapter.  The issue with using the adapter is you have a very small focus area and in video set to manual exposure you can't lock down the controls.  It goes to some type of auto exposure mode and moves the shutter speed where it wants and also locks the f stop to 3.5.  Very strange.

The Olympus up till the new one was not meant for video through the battery works longer, the menu of the oly is a mess, but it doesn't jello as easily and the stabilization is very good.

Personally though I haven't tested it I'd go with the new Panasonic G5 when it's available.  The new panasonic has a 5 axis stabilization and up to 400 mb/s 422 10 bit,  vs the Sony's tops of 100 mb/s 420, 8 bit.

Once again I have not tried the gh5, but own two gh3's tested the gh4's and the file is more robust and the camera is very easy to set up.  Its like a mini 5d2.

If there is only a downside of micro 43 it's getting to super wide lenses.  There is a leica autofocus 12.5 (25mm equivalent) and if you want to be able to have softer backgrounds you usually need to go to the manual focus voiightlanders at f .95.

The nice thing about micro 4/3 with a light cage is it's easy to mount them in cars and small areas and the gh5 has full sensor readout to 4k and uhd, rather than just crop the center of the sensor.

IMO

BC

Chris Sanderson

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Re: Video newbie Q: 4K camera with best IS
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2017, 01:35:29 PM »

IMO based on the original question, the Panny GHs are unbeatable and now the GH5 has in body IS.

This from PVC may be of interest. Check out the various videos, there is a lot there
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Christopher Sanderson
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bcooter

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Re: Video newbie Q: 4K camera with best IS
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2017, 04:54:10 PM »

IMO based on the original question, the Panny GHs are unbeatable and now the GH5 has in body IS.

This from PVC may be of interest. Check out the various videos, there is a lot there

Chris,

I believe your probably right, though I've been fooled before, but Panasonic seems to have thrown a lot in the gh5.  How they handle heat is beyond my knowledge, but other than that it really is a small filmmakers camera.   The cool thing is unlike Sony and Canon, they don't seem too concerned about taking away market share from their more expensive cameras.

For some work I think this camera will be ideal.

IMO

BC

Pete Berry

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Re: Video newbie Q: 4K camera with best IS
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2017, 03:38:00 PM »

Chris,

I believe your probably right, though I've been fooled before, but Panasonic seems to have thrown a lot in the gh5.  How they handle heat is beyond my knowledge, but other than that it really is a small filmmakers camera.   The cool thing is unlike Sony and Canon, they don't seem too concerned about taking away market share from their more expensive cameras.

For some work I think this camera will be ideal.

IMO

BC

One thing about Panny's GH series - and I've had them all, with GH5 coming in a few days, I hope - is that they live up to their promises and more, and have no huge flaws, such as the Sony crop body video heat woes, and woeful battery life across the board. The GH5 has been the most anticipated of the bunch with far more than anyone dreamed probable: crop-free 4K full sensor readout w/ int. rec. 10-bit 4:2:2 & dual SD cards, huge rolling shutter reduction, 4K 60p, 1080 180p of decent IQ, and an extraordinary "6K Photo" mode that delivers "6K" 18.7MP frames in either 3:2 or 4:3 anamorphic mode at 30p. And 5-axis, 5-stop IBIS, with a killer super-res EVF. All with no heat problems to date...and the full-sized HDMI port w/ anchor everyone has asked for...
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vulture

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Re: Video newbie Q: 4K camera with best IS
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2017, 12:13:31 PM »



Quote
One thing about Panny's GH series - and I've had them all, with GH5 coming in a few days, I hope - is that they live up to their promises and more, and have no huge flaws...

Not quite: Pana GH4 autofocus is slow and erratic with the Panasonic/Leica Elmar 4.0-6.3/100-400mm, no matter if in stills or video.
Completely useless with sports or wildlife. Hopefully it will improve with the GH 5.
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Pete Berry

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Re: Video newbie Q: 4K camera with best IS
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2017, 01:24:10 PM »


Not quite: Pana GH4 autofocus is slow and erratic with the Panasonic/Leica Elmar 4.0-6.3/100-400mm, no matter if in stills or video.
Completely useless with sports or wildlife. Hopefully it will improve with the GH 5.

If you owned the lens, I assume you returned it, as your report is distinctly unusual. Did you update FW on both lens and body? While focus tracking has not been an m4/3 strong point, lightning-fast and accurate AF-S with proper settings in stills mode - even in low light - certainly has been. The GH5 will be two AF gen's newer than the GH4, with the G80 having the most recent refinement of Panny's  DFD focus tracking technology for stills. In video, not up to the a6500's tracking, but it's functionally clobbered in other more significant ways for serious videography.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 01:32:35 PM by Pete Berry »
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Chris Sanderson

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Re: Video newbie Q: 4K camera with best IS
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2017, 02:19:14 PM »

Lots more hands-on GH5 info on EOSHD
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Christopher Sanderson
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Pete Berry

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Re: Video newbie Q: 4K camera with best IS
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2017, 02:25:02 PM »

I just ran across Gordon Laing's 3/27 lengthy, deep-diving review of the GH5, with detailed IS studies both with IBIS only and with OIS enabled lenses, including the 100-400.

And extensive AF/AF-C examples w/ the 100-400 @ 400mm, partially quoted below, with BIF examples further on.

https://www.cameralabs.com/panasonic-lumix-gh5-review/2/

"As always, the Single AF performance is a highlight. Recent Lumix G bodies have become very fast at Single AF, but if anything the GH5 feels even faster. When fitted with a modern lens, like the Leica 12-60mm or Leica 100-400mm, the focusing speed can be blisteringly quick, sometimes snapping-into focus with no perceptible delay at all. This certainly ties-in with Panasonicís claims that its focusing speed of 0.05 seconds is its fastest yet. Note focusing slowed down though when shooting in the 4K / 6K Photo modes in my tests."

"To put the continuous AF capabilities to the test on the GH5 I tried it with the Leica 100-400mm f4-6.3, an increasingly popular lens for sports and wildlife shooters alike. I tried the lens at a variety of focal lengths, but tried to stay towards the longer-end and always with the aperture at its maximum value to really put the system through its paces. I photographed a variety of approaching subjects including runners, cyclists, vehicles, jetskis and birds in flight. I used a combination of a single area and Custom Multi mode for a more forgiving zoned region."

"Starting with cycling, I asked my friend Ben to ride towards me at a consistent speed as I fired-off bursts in the Continuous High mode with AFC / Continuous AF; I used the Leica 100-400mm zoom, set to 400mm for an 800mm equivalent field-of-view and opened the aperture to its maximum f6.3. I tried a variety of focus area options, including 225 area and tracking, but as with earlier Lumix G cameras, found the best results in this situation was with either a single area or a custom multi pattern; I created my own fat cross pattern and positioned it where I wanted Benís face to be on the frame and manually adjusted the cameraís position to keep him centred under it. Hereís a single frame of Ben, followed by a sequence of 16 images where Iíve presented 100% crops."

"As you can see, the GH5 returns a respectably high hit rate even at 800mm equivalent with a subject approaching head-on. Thereís a couple that are a little soft, particularly when the subject is close, but on the whole itís an impressive performance for a contrast-based AF system. I should however note when focusing continuously and shooting at fast bursts, the resolution of the viewfinder reduces and the image sometimes looks a little soft as youíre following the action. This can be a little disconcerting as you think the cameraís failing to focus correctly, but once you review the images afterwards youíll see most or even all are sharp. Itís a limitation of how a 480fps AF drive system works with an electronic viewfinder and something you simply have to get used to if you want to shoot at the top speeds."
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Pete Berry

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Re: Video newbie Q: 4K camera with best IS
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2017, 12:43:22 PM »

Chris,

I believe your probably right, though I've been fooled before, but Panasonic seems to have thrown a lot in the gh5.  How they handle heat is beyond my knowledge, but other than that it really is a small filmmakers camera.   The cool thing is unlike Sony and Canon, they don't seem too concerned about taking away market share from their more expensive cameras.

For some work I think this camera will be ideal.

IMO

BC

Gordon Laing reported a 1h 57min cont. runtime at 4K/50p filling a 128GB card, with several minutes left for a new card. The body felt warm, but not hot at the end. Good news indeed!
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bcooter

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Re: Video newbie Q: 4K camera with best IS
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2017, 09:38:43 PM »

Gordon Laing reported a 1h 57min cont. runtime at 4K/50p filling a 128GB card, with several minutes left for a new card. The body felt warm, but not hot at the end. Good news indeed!

Next project Iíll rent or buy a gh5.   It ticks most of the boxes and for a small camera seems good. 

The only thing that is missing (except for internal adís which no camera this size has), and phase detect autofocus like the 70/80d.  The contrast detect with some fine tuning can work, but it has to be configured for every scene.

I know the gh3 would autofocus pretty well if set up right, the gh4, not so much as the processor was overcooked running 4k and trying to make contrast detect work.   

Iím also not wild about hotshoe mounted devices, like the xld sound inputs, because it puts stress on the hotshot and makes it difficult to mount the camera in a cage.  I wish it had a remote cord or could be mounted on the side, but for 2 grand for the camera, you really canít complain.

Iím not that worried about 4:3 sensors and if it will go to 800 iso then Iím fine.

I do wish panasonic had faster zooms, but if you need shallow depth of field and a faux higher iso, the voightlanger f .95 lenses will do the trick and give you two stops over most of the 2.8 lenses, though manual focus only.

The thing I noticed with my gh3ís is the shadows easily pull up in resolve, Iím sure the gh5 will be as good if not better.

I really would like to see the gh5ís with the 400mbs upgrade, I think April.   That will add more data and an easier to work file.

Itís interesting Iíve tried and owned a lot of these smaller motion cameras and combo cams, FS 300, GH3, A7sII, 1dx, 5d2, D70.  The D70 autofocuses like magic, though the file is minimal.

The smaller cameras are great because they are lightweight and fast, but anytime I mix footage with them vs. my MX Reds, I always want to kick myself for not just shooting everything with the REDís as the RED files look like cinema film and the smaller cameras kind of have that smooth digital look, but thatís personal preference.

I would suggest if your working hand hold, to go to a cage with rails and/or a slightly heavier system because these cameras are so lightweight, even with I.S. you can get some frenetic shake if your working long days.

The only thing that concerns me is Iíve heard that panasonic has given up on cameras, or maybe still cameras.  Where this leaves the gh5 I donít know, but Iíd hate to see it go the way of the Samsung NX1, though the gh5 seems to be selling quite well, so maybe thatís not a concern.

I have a lot of 43 glass pane, only, voight but no real clear answer if the internal I.S. works with anything but the pana lenses.



IMO

BC




Joe Towner

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Re: Video newbie Q: 4K camera with best IS
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2017, 03:21:17 PM »

What's your end use of the footage going to be?  You may get away with doing a gimbal for a current smartphone, Gopro, or an Osmo even. 
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John Brawley

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Re: Video newbie Q: 4K camera with best IS
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2017, 04:00:47 PM »

I'm out of the loop on video technology, so apologies if this question is dated. I'm looking for a 4K camera recommendation which has excellent in camera image stabilization. I'm going to be traveling on an extended trip where weight and bulk has to be kept to a minimum, but want to capture 4K video. This means hand held shooting 90% of the time on boats, hikes and traveling rough. Any recommendations for cameras that have really good IS built in, either mechanical or electronic of both?

Hard to go past the Olympus EM1 Mark 2 if you want the very best in camera IS with a 4k video image AND a long and proud history of weatherproofing and an indestructible camera.  They aren't exactly light, yet still compared to other options being canvassed here it's comparable.  I've also really been enjoying it as a stills camera too.

Oh and the integration time (RS) is also very low, something that can't be said for the Sony.

I am a little biased as I'm an Olympus visionary.  I can share some clips from the EM1 Mark 2 with you privately if you wish.  I just can't make them public yet, but they're shot available light and all handheld.  I also shot these entirely handheld with the lessor EM5 Mark 2, but it gives you an idea of what can be done with the IS all handheld. Frankly, as an experienced cinematographer i was very impressed with what I got done in this clip with the bare bones basic setup.



Also these..





JB


« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 04:43:13 PM by John Brawley »
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vulture

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Re: Video newbie Q: 4K camera with best IS
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2017, 04:34:18 AM »

Quote
Not quite: Pana GH4 autofocus is slow and erratic with the Panasonic/Leica Elmar 4.0-6.3/100-400mm, no matter if in stills or video.
Completely useless with sports or wildlife. Hopefully it will improve with the GH 5.

Update after working a while with the GH5/ Pana-Leica Elmar 100-400:
Auto focus and tracking much improved.
You can set even a higher sensitivity/speed for AFF and tracking - a tremendous improvement over GH 4.
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