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Author Topic: Frames with Glass or No Glass  (Read 1740 times)

Rainer SLP

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Frames with Glass or No Glass
« on: March 04, 2017, 03:00:10 PM »

Hi,

There are lots of papers with diferente surfaces on the market and so there are lots of printing photographers who swear on one type of paper or another type of paper and the end of most of those prints are in a frame behind glass, be it antireflection or common glass ...

Having done now test prints on some of those available papers I do tend to just leave the glass away and enjoy the printing on the papers I have chosen.

Trying to convince the few customers I have to not use glass anymore, they always look at me like if I am Nuts :-)

Even after explaining them with real world examples, I show them the prints framed with glass and without glass, they tend more to glass then without and the main reason is ... What about the protecting function of the glass ? So I see that it is predominant the fear about the print rather the joy of looking on something beautiful

What is your experience about this ?

Frame with glass or not ?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 03:15:38 PM by Rainer SLP »
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Thanks and regards Rainer

I am here for learning and having fun and maybe sometimes I take life too serious, but then I think I will never get alive out of it and it passes away ...

JNB_Rare

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2017, 03:55:12 PM »

The issue with glass usually has to do with displayed print longevity, although glass is only part of archival best practices. To my eye, glass does hide some of the beauty and differences in papers. There's nothing like the look and feel of a luxurious, heavy-weight, premium-paper print. But if one doesn't protect the colour/tonal fidelity of that print, then it can be spoiled over time. This happens with traditional silver-halide prints as well.

Some collectors enjoy unframed prints, kept in archival storage, and viewed from time to time. Even in this situation, "dark stability" comes into play. But most customers will want to display the image (that they liked enough to purchase) in a frame on the wall, where exposure to the elements (light, dust, 5-year-old granddaughters pointing with sticky fingers) are concerns.

Farmer

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2017, 04:33:34 PM »

Assuming they're paying a reasonable amount for the print, and being concerned about longevity and the availability and cost of replacing it, it's not hard to understand why they wanted it protected.
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Phil Brown

JoeKitchen

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2017, 09:46:56 PM »

I have a client of mine that always has me print the best image from each shoot at 21x28 (or thereabouts) and have it framed for his office.  (I almost never see my images in print, let alone a large format print, and, since I shot medium format, it is pretty nice when I shoot a job for them and get to see the almost the full res of the camera utilized.) 

For the last few frames, we have been using museum quality glass, which is about 95% glare free.  It is really nice.  It cost about 60% more per pane, but, except with very strong light, looks like there is no glass in the frame. 

We have a 4 inch matte white board put around the image, and, including the printing fees, I charge them about $400 extra for this service.  Not too expensive when you're billing someone for it, but could be a little prohibitive if you are paying for it yourself. 
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Joe Kitchen
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Osprey

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2017, 08:30:06 PM »

Any ideas about metal printed longevity?  Those don't need glass for sure, and can look great for the right shot and technique.
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Rainer SLP

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2017, 08:44:04 PM »

Any ideas about metal printed longevity?  Those don't need glass for sure, and can look great for the right shot and technique.

Hi,

Just got a 20" by 50 feet roll of MOAB Slickrock Metallic Silver 330grs and made some test images. Not every motif is usable. One must use to combine the paper shining with the motif. Very very imortant is the light under which you look at them. Wrong light makes the image shine bluish and you will not like it, at least me.

Longevity ? No idea.
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Thanks and regards Rainer

I am here for learning and having fun and maybe sometimes I take life too serious, but then I think I will never get alive out of it and it passes away ...

Rob C

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2017, 04:57:32 AM »

I think glass is essential, not only for safety reasons but for aesthetical ones too.

It's my impression that the use of glass gives at least the illusion of a wider tonal scale, with shadows the richer, and not dead.

In darkroom days I hated all surfaces other than WSG well-glazed. Why run the gamut of photographic control and expertise only to lose, wilfully, much of what you produced to the flatness of matt papers and, worse, the textures of stipple or canvas? I see those trick textures as the reserve of the bad 'social photographer' snapper, hiding poor technique behind the camouflage of a surface distraction that renders everything equally mediocre.

YMMV. I'm sure it will.

Rainer SLP

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2017, 05:13:46 PM »

I think glass is essential, not only for safety reasons but for aesthetical ones too.

It's my impression that the use of glass gives at least the illusion of a wider tonal scale, with shadows the richer, and not dead.

In darkroom days I hated all surfaces other than WSG well-glazed. Why run the gamut of photographic control and expertise only to lose, wilfully, much of what you produced to the flatness of matt papers and, worse, the textures of stipple or canvas? I see those trick textures as the reserve of the bad 'social photographer' snapper, hiding poor technique behind the camouflage of a surface distraction that renders everything equally mediocre.

YMMV. I'm sure it will.

Thank you Rob ...
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Thanks and regards Rainer

I am here for learning and having fun and maybe sometimes I take life too serious, but then I think I will never get alive out of it and it passes away ...

Rob C

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2017, 05:34:15 PM »

Thank you Rob ...

Not an attack on you personally - just an observation based on trying out different papers when I was very young. It's impossible to improve on WSG. Everything else is a step backwards, IMO, and its main purpose ends up being disguise. Why would anyone mess with the perfectiion of the fullest range of tones the printer wanted to give? Had he intended to lose some, he'd have done that in the print, not allowed the paper to screw with his work.

Rob

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2017, 12:11:11 AM »

It's impossible to improve on WSG.
What is WSG?
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Rob C

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2017, 04:31:08 AM »

What is WSG?

Holy shit!

I must be old after all.

;-)

Rob

kikashi

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2017, 04:36:37 AM »

What is WSG?

Holy shit!

Doesn't work, Rob. That would be "HS!". And you'd never get the name past Marketing.

Jeremy
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JNB_Rare

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2017, 01:32:19 PM »

What is WSG?

White Smooth Glossy

Personal preference. Mine was unferrotyped glossy. But my prints weren't often of pretty girls, like Rob's. Here's an exception  – a crude scan of a print from 1974. And the only print I seem to still have is on (ACKK!) a resin-coated (RC) paper. The "model" wasn't one. Just a co-worker's girlfriend.




Rob C

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2017, 02:26:37 PM »

Welcome to memory corner! I had feared I was the last man sleeping.

Nice photograph you have there; I hope they were both pleased with it - should have been. Those fabrics were just made to be photographed!

The drift to resin came just before I left the UK and I was able to avoid it right to the end. Once here, I tried the darkroom route again, but just for myself, the pro work being 100% transparencies by then. I simply couldn't get to grips with the multigrade/filter swapping business at all, and as the water here was too bad even with filtration, I gave up. I couldn't use normal, non-resin coated graded papers because of the water shortages... an hour's wash would have got me crucified, just like John Lennon feared. And rightly so. I ended up donating the entire works - Durst 6x7 enlager, Schneider Componons in both 50mm and 80mm, electronic timer, various easles and dishes, developing tanks, the lot, to the local school. No idea of they ever did get a darkroom together, but I'm sure they'd soon have run into the same problems as I.

Rob

JNB_Rare

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2017, 11:31:36 PM »

Welcome to memory corner! I had feared I was the last man sleeping.

Nice photograph you have there; I hope they were both pleased with it - should have been. Those fabrics were just made to be photographed!

The drift to resin came just before I left the UK and I was able to avoid it right to the end. Once here, I tried the darkroom route again, but just for myself, the pro work being 100% transparencies by then. I simply couldn't get to grips with the multigrade/filter swapping business at all, and as the water here was too bad even with filtration, I gave up. I couldn't use normal, non-resin coated graded papers because of the water shortages... an hour's wash would have got me crucified, just like John Lennon feared. And rightly so. I ended up donating the entire works - Durst 6x7 enlager, Schneider Componons in both 50mm and 80mm, electronic timer, various easles and dishes, developing tanks, the lot, to the local school. No idea of they ever did get a darkroom together, but I'm sure they'd soon have run into the same problems as I.

Rob

I forgot to tie my post in to the discussion about glass, but your comment about washing prints reminded me. That 1974 print (43 years old), looks as fresh as a daisy, having been kept in a box for all these years. Some prints in frames under glass have survived just as well, it seems. But it doesn't take much for things to go wrong. A couple of other prints from the same era now show chemical stains and fading after a few years on the wall. Working too fast and not paying attention, I guess. As I mentioned earlier, the glass is just one part of being archival.

Rainer SLP

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2017, 03:43:34 PM »

Not an attack on you personally - just an observation based on trying out different papers when I was very young. It's impossible to improve on WSG. Everything else is a step backwards, IMO, and its main purpose ends up being disguise. Why would anyone mess with the perfectiion of the fullest range of tones the printer wanted to give? Had he intended to lose some, he'd have done that in the print, not allowed the paper to screw with his work.

Rob

No offense taken.

So if one does not have a wet darkroom what printing paper would come close to the paper you use or used in wet darkroom ?

I searched in Internet ot understand what you mean with WSG and found not much but if I understand correclt then with WSG you mean White smooth glossy ? before JNB_Rare mentioned it in a message here.

Would be good to know the paper which would have the same properties as that WSG or again, ¿ there is no replacement for wet darkroom using a printer nowadays ?
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Thanks and regards Rainer

I am here for learning and having fun and maybe sometimes I take life too serious, but then I think I will never get alive out of it and it passes away ...

JNB_Rare

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2017, 06:11:52 PM »

No offense taken.
Would be good to know the paper which would have the same properties as that WSG or again, ¿ there is no replacement for wet darkroom using a printer nowadays ?

You're using an inkjet printer (and which one)? Colour or B&W?

Perhaps you could ask in the Printers, Papers and Inks forum here. I don't have a lot of experience with different papers (especially not in side-by-side comparisons). And, as I mentioned, I personally like a more semi-gloss surface.

If you really want a traditional darkroom B&W print (digital silver halide), there are a very few places that can do that for you (if you can withstand the price). I think most of them are using Ilford Galerie Digital Silver FB paper. One inkjet paper that I like for B&W is Ilford Galerie Gold Mono Silk. There is also an article about Harmon Gloss FB here on Lula, but that was 2012, so we're 5 years on.

Rainer SLP

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2017, 06:58:04 PM »

You're using an inkjet printer (and which one)? Colour or B&W?

Perhaps you could ask in the Printers, Papers and Inks forum here. I don't have a lot of experience with different papers (especially not in side-by-side comparisons). And, as I mentioned, I personally like a more semi-gloss surface.

If you really want a traditional darkroom B&W print (digital silver halide), there are a very few places that can do that for you (if you can withstand the price). I think most of them are using Ilford Galerie Digital Silver FB paper. One inkjet paper that I like for B&W is Ilford Galerie Gold Mono Silk. There is also an article about Harmon Gloss FB here on Lula, but that was 2012, so we're 5 years on.

Thanks. I own a EPSON SureColor P7000

I am just trying to understand Rob C in regard and simulate what he says. OK, that will not be 100% true as it is difficult to get what he likes but at least amke some prints on similar paper, frame them behind glass and compare with the other possibilities having so much paper options ...

Just exploring ideas in order to get ideas and proposals for my customers.
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Thanks and regards Rainer

I am here for learning and having fun and maybe sometimes I take life too serious, but then I think I will never get alive out of it and it passes away ...

Rob C

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Re: Frames with Glass or No Glass
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2017, 05:34:06 AM »

Yes, WSG is white smooth glossy, and it came in several contrast grades, which basically means that each grade allowed you to print making a variety of different contrast 'look's on each grade, just by altering the combination of exposure time and development time. For a 'normal' negative, one that is neither over- nor underexposed, nor over- or underdeveloped, grade 2 was the usual choice that would allow you to get the widest range of tones from that negative.

If your negative, for whatever reason, was too contrasty, you'd drop a grade and from 2, go down to 1. The opposite was also true: if your negative was too flat - not enough contrast in it - you'd go up the grades to grade 3 or above. You'd also choose to use different grades not because you had a bad negative, but because you simply wanted to accentuate contrast or do the opposite. Quite flexible, it was! In reality, I only stocked grades 2 and 3 because they coped with pretty much anything.

WSG could be air dried or drum dried or just dried off (if you were poor) on a flatbed glazer, a heated box-like thing that came with a thin sheet of very polished stainless steel or chrome plated steel. The wet print would be squeegeed on a sheet of perspex to get rid of excess water from the washing bath, and then placed face down onto the shiny steel plate, and a roller would be used to get rid of any air bubbles between paper and sheet (glazing sheet, it was called) and then this combined thing would be placed onto the box, metal sheet against box, and a fabric curtain pulled up from the back of the box so as to tightly bind the paper and sheet together during the heating/drying process. If you were lucky and a meticulous worker, when the print felt dry though the fabric curtain, you would release the pressure of said curtain and remove the print, now flat and super-shiny. If not so fortunate, parts of the print could appear stuck to the plate, and your troubles would be just beginning. If instead of placing the print face down onto the plate you put it in contact the other way around, you would end up with what was known as unglazed WSG. Depending on the quality of the 'curtain' your dried print would then either have fluff glued to it or be perfectly fine.

This latter state of final print was preferred by reproduction houses because it made their life more easy because it offered less reflections when being copied on their process cameras. Of course, being a selfish bugger, I didn't give a damn and always gave my clients a highly glazed print because it looked better that way. Why, I felt, should I do the repro house's work for it and, in the process, appear to be handing over a second-class print?

If you were the lucky owner of a drum glazer, it signified you were doing very well! It also allowed you to feed in prints for drying as if on an endless belt, if the rotation speed wasn't too high for the drying process, when you'd get still stuck prints about to go round a second time. If partly dry, they could foul against the pressure curtain (blanket) and crease, demanding a reprint. If you had any large output of prints, this was an essential piece of production kit. It also seemed to be more reliable than flatbed drying with far less sticking. To avoid sticking, some of us passed the print through a bath of wetting agent prior to making the plate/print contact, but in my view, I think accidents were more often due to dirt getting into the sandwich, or insufficient washing. The great thing about these rare disasters was that you really never could tell what had gone wrong to cause them: it just did. Great fun, and character-forming.

Getting WSG-like digital prints from desktop printers was never successful for me. My good printer was an HP B 9180 that used pigment inks; I believe that you should use dye-based inks for glossy digital printing? The test-runs for that HP were done using a gloss paper and it looked great; however, as I did mostly b/whites, I ran into the problem of bronzing when using the gloss paper and just had to give up and revert to matt surfaces that looked great behind glass or within archival sheaths, both providing faux glossiness that looked beautiful.

;-)

Rob
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 05:37:37 AM by Rob C »
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