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Author Topic: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc  (Read 5169 times)

Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2017, 05:02:42 PM »

Tested out the Hyperikon 100watt equivalent 4000K LED flood (Model:HyperBR40-402) and I have to say I'm quite impressed not only with its color rendering but amount of broad spread of light. It's much brighter than the Soraa Model 00807. Just one Hyperikon flood lit up my 12x15ft. bedroom at night enough to not require any other lights.

And it doesn't run as hot as the Soraa.

To Garnik I don't know the lux of the Hyperikon or the Soraa. Don't have measuring instruments, but the sample images below shows that I had to raise the print about a foot closer to the Soraa installed in the bathroom sink overhead track light fixture which is 4ft. above the sink. I can say that one Hyperikon LED flood lit up the vanity sink enclosure area with almost as much light as the 4 Walmart 100watt 5000K LED bulbs.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 10:18:07 PM by Tim Lookingbill »
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2017, 03:45:48 AM »

Hello all,

Definitely a lot of very interesting and helpful info in this thread.  For many years my business has consisted mainly of printing for professional as well as serious amateur photographers, both "C" printing and B&W(Silver),  and for the past 12 years inkjet of course.  My light source for viewing/judging my work has always consisted of fluorescent bulbs in the range of 4800 to 5000K with an intensity of approximately 500 to 600 LUX.  I am now in the process of moving my business to my home location, and in doing so, also exploring the various lighting possibilities for judging prints.  Again I come back to my original comment concerning the wealth of information presented thus far in this thread.  However, I have not yet come across any sort of discussion concerning the actual intensity of lighting that should be used for such viewing/judging of the printed work.  I guess what I am asking for is a sort of conciseness among the group here as to an average intensity number in LUX for such a light source.  In my search I did find a rather old reference in the "Kodak Encyclopedia Of Photography" series, volume 3, which is a s follows: "For good viewing, a light source should provide an illuminance of 100 + - 50 foot-candles(= approx 600 to 1200 LUX).  50 foot-candles(approx 600 LUX) should be considered a minimum level.  The colour temperature of the light source should be 4000K + - 1000K.  A colour temperature of 3800 to 4000K serves well as an average of various viewing conditions". I then found another set of numbers on the x-rite sight as follows:

Light Intensity
Prints and Proofs
Casual Viewing (exhibition)—800 lux
Judging—2000±500 lux (required)
Judging—2000±250 lux (preferred)
Color temp. - D50 = 5000K

These are somewhat higher LUX numbers than I had anticipated, hence my reason for asking your help on this matter before I make a final decision on the light source and intensity I will be using in my new location.  Your input would be very much appreciated.

Gary 

   

Gary,

Similar figures in this article, what you question is valid;

http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/AaI_2009_0118_TA-01.pdf

In my opinion for a viewing light next to the calibrated/profiled monitor you can not use 1200-2000 Lux on the print/original. In the first place it will not represent the usual display light level of the print later on and it will not suit the level of the monitor. Without a monitor and judging the quality of a reproduction print to the original, higher Lux numbers and a shift to D50 from 4000K is recommended. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruithof_curve. In a studio with a lot of unavoidable light all the levels will/should be raised towards that 2000 lux / D50 level but will still not represent the usual display light levels later on. That casual viewing light 800 Lux number is at least twice what musea use, recommended the levels can be as low as 200 Lux. Even 50 Lux + 2700K is not rare for light sensitive art. Compromises on the viewing light are unavoidable.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

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Garnick

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2017, 09:04:12 AM »

Gary,

Similar figures in this article, what you question is valid;

http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/AaI_2009_0118_TA-01.pdf

In my opinion for a viewing light next to the calibrated/profiled monitor you can not use 1200-2000 Lux on the print/original. In the first place it will not represent the usual display light level of the print later on and it will not suit the level of the monitor. Without a monitor and judging the quality of a reproduction print to the original, higher Lux numbers and a shift to D50 from 4000K is recommended. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruithof_curve. In a studio with a lot of unavoidable light all the levels will/should be raised towards that 2000 lux / D50 level but will still not represent the usual display light levels later on. That casual viewing light 800 Lux number is at least twice what musea use, recommended the levels can be as low as 200 Lux. Even 50 Lux + 2700K is not rare for light sensitive art. Compromises on the viewing light are unavoidable.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

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February 2017 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

Hi Ernst,

Thanks for the reply, I've been following your posts for many years.  I totally agree with the first sentence, the higher LUX would definitely not be suitable for a viewing system in close proximity to the display.  However, I have never depended on my calibrated NEC displays to offer an image that will ultimately match the profiled printer(s).  Long ago I arrived at the conclusion that a match between display and print was a dream I could chase until the day I produce my last print, and likely never experience such a match.  My background is Type "C" printing in custom colour labs and eventually my own lab.  The idea of making small test prints was instilled into my workflow long before digital printing arrived, and it is still my preferred method.  Obviously a properly calibrated display and profiled printer does make the testing process a lot more efficient, but I still deem the test to be a very important and necessary part of my printing procedure.  It took quite a few years to finally find a person whose background and advise I respected would also admit that a true match between display and print was next to impossible.  I will not mention his name here, but all of you folks are familiar with his work I'm sure.  And after all, we are not in the business of selling the image on our displays.  No, we sell the prints that we make, both for ourselves and for others.  Therefore, the print is the final product, not the displayed image.  I realize the quote I took from the Kodak source was rather old and perhaps somewhat outdated, but it has served me and my customers very well for many years, both with "C" and digital printing, as well as B&W(silver) and digital.  I suppose what I am putting forth here is my opinion, based on my own experience.  And as we all know, if the viewing/judging light it too high in intensity the print will probably be too dark under "normal" intensity lighting, and vice versa.  That's why I am now trying to find a middle ground, since I am in the process of setting up a whole new working environment.  I will be able to take some of your numbers and perhaps come to a final conclusion, but I will likely still be looking for that perfect system as far as light intensity is concerned for viewing/judging prints.  We can not possibly print for every lighting situation, so we have to somehow find an even ground to stand on at some point.

One other point I would make here that might clarify my testing procedure is as follows.  Since my customer base also consists of a number of "semi-serious amateurs", true colour management is often a phrase that is not part of their vocabulary, nor would I expect it to be so.  Therefore, the need for testing becomes much more obvious, no matter what the display image looks like.  In that case it is indeed simply a good starting point in most cases.  However, the pros I print for(some of them) will often provide an image file that definitely shows me that they take CM seriously, in which case the display image does indeed get me much closer to the final print with a minimum of adjustment and a maximum of one small test.  In my case it's usually a matter of trying to find the best approach to any situation.  I immediately know that the "amateur" photogs file will probably require more tests to get to a final print.

Thanks again Ernst,
Gary         

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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2017, 12:06:33 PM »

My background is Type "C" printing in custom colour labs and eventually my own lab.  The idea of making small test prints was instilled into my workflow long before digital printing arrived, and it is still my preferred method.  Obviously a properly calibrated display and profiled printer does make the testing process a lot more efficient, but I still deem the test to be a very important and necessary part of my printing procedure.
Gary       

So what light source back then and now were you using to judge the test prints?

The 8x10 print of the deer in my test image demo above was printed on a Fuji Frontier DL600 dry lab inkjet in sRGB and I didn't run any test prints mainly because the Fuji 8x10's cost $3 a piece. I understand in a pro lab scenario with larger prints a small test print is good insurance. I just wonder what looked off in your final prints that led you to make test prints and whether it was caused by the light or the ink or C-print dye fluorescing.

I've found not all printer's ink/paper combos reflect their colors the same depending on the formulation of pigments/filters used in various light sources regardless if it's technically daylight from some CRI number or prints viewed under the bluish flotubes at Walmart's Fuji dry lab. I've now seen enough of these variations to fully appreciate any new daylight LED innovation that attempts to reduce this fluorescing of ink on paper.
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Garnick

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2017, 12:47:48 PM »

So what light source back then and now were you using to judge the test prints?

The 8x10 print of the deer in my test image demo above was printed on a Fuji Frontier DL600 dry lab inkjet in sRGB and I didn't run any test prints mainly because the Fuji 8x10's cost $3 a piece. I understand in a pro lab scenario with larger prints a small test print is good insurance. I just wonder what looked off in your final prints that led you to make test prints and whether it was caused by the light or the ink or C-print dye fluorescing.

I've found not all printer's ink/paper combos reflect their colors the same depending on the formulation of pigments/filters used in various light sources regardless if it's technically daylight from some CRI number or prints viewed under the bluish flotubes at Walmart's Fuji dry lab. I've now seen enough of these variations to fully appreciate any new daylight LED innovation that attempts to reduce this fluorescing of ink on paper.

Hi Tim,

To your question - I believe I had mentioned that for many years I have been using fluorescent 5000K, CRI 90+ bulbs for viewing both the tests and final prints.  Also mentioned that my background is in custom colour printing, which means producing the best possible print from the negative, transparency and now the digital file I am presented with.  My start in the business dates back to the late 60s with a custom lab in Toronto where we took care of many professional/commercial photographers, film processing and printing.  We also produced separation negs and dye transfer prints, a real PITA, but the final product was the best available at that time.  Also some very large prints and display transparencies, all of which involved testing of course before hitting the final print/tranie.  Back then the video analyzers for printing were just being introduced, but the price was almost prohibitive for many labs, and one could never rely totally on its ability to produce a first final print, hence the need for at least one test print of an indicative area of the image.  Basically the same procedure that has followed me into the digital age of printing.  However, as I mentioned previously, if the file I am presented with has been processed in a properly colour managed environment, it will likely only require only one test before the final full sized print.  Again, it's not necessarily the colour temp of the lights that I'm concerned about as much as the intensity, meaning of course that in my opinion a 5000K +- light is still the way to go for such purposes.  As far as the Walmart scenario is concerned, I would never advise anyone to get their printing done at such an establishment.  Simply put, it is not even close to what most of the people on this site would be producing within their own printing setup, either amateur or pro.  I'm not saying that the possibility isn't there, but the maintenance of the equipment and the knowledge of the operators is definitely sub-par in my opinion.  As far as your Deer Print is concerned it's not bad, but could certainly be warmer when viewed on my calibrated and profiled NEC display, and that's taking into account the web issues involved in displaying such images.

"I've now seen enough of these variations to fully appreciate any new daylight LED innovation that attempts to reduce this fluorescing of ink on paper".  This is exactly what I am referring to, the variations in lighting, both colour temp and intensity.  If we can't agree on some sort of average in both of those areas the field is wide open, anything becomes good enough.  And as we all know, "good enough" is never as good as it could/should be.  The experience of cutting my printing teeth in a custom lab where 5000K was the standard for all commercial printing and reproductions gave me a background that has stuck with me to this day, and I too will be exploring some of the new innovations in LED etc. bulbs available now for such applications.  For that reason I have found this thread a helpful start to my next bout of research. 

Gary
                         

 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 02:07:12 PM by Garnick »
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2017, 04:56:01 PM »

I misspoke. I knew what lights you used. I really wanted to know what you kept seeing in the final print under any reference lighting that made you want to do test prints. What colors did you find were off?

The reason I ask is to confirm whether you've experienced strangeness in these 5000K fluorescent bulbs that might have brought out fluorescing caused by particular brands of printer ink and dye formulations.

That Walmart print of the deer looked horrendous under their standard fluorescent tubes that I demanded a reprint which didn't fix it. But after viewing them under my newer 5000K LED bulbs like the Soraa/Hyperikon including the not so accurate daylight CFL bulbs, I couldn't believe how much better they looked so much so that I suspected the Fuji ink formulations are overly sensitive to non-full spectrum light that it got me to rethink and have doubts about your quote here...

Quote
And after all, we are not in the business of selling the image on our displays.  No, we sell the prints that we make, both for ourselves and for others.  Therefore, the print is the final product, not the displayed image.

To press the point even further the commercial press ink printed magazines on the nearby Walmart magazine rack looked correct under the same lights. That was puzzling!

I guess I'm having doubts that with newer inkjet technology that there may not be a middle ground reference print viewing light if there are these kind of appearance extremes of prints sold to customers who may use wonky lighting that reacts differently to certain brands of printing ink and paper.
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JRSmit

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2017, 11:26:01 AM »

I beliebe one should take the kruithof curve also into account: https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand:Kruithof_curve_2.svg
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Garnick

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2017, 12:06:48 PM »

I misspoke. I knew what lights you used. I really wanted to know what you kept seeing in the final print under any reference lighting that made you want to do test prints. What colors did you find were off?

The reason I ask is to confirm whether you've experienced strangeness in these 5000K fluorescent bulbs that might have brought out fluorescing caused by particular brands of printer ink and dye formulations.

That Walmart print of the deer looked horrendous under their standard fluorescent tubes that I demanded a reprint which didn't fix it. But after viewing them under my newer 5000K LED bulbs like the Soraa/Hyperikon including the not so accurate daylight CFL bulbs, I couldn't believe how much better they looked so much so that I suspected the Fuji ink formulations are overly sensitive to non-full spectrum light that it got me to rethink and have doubts about your quote here...

To press the point even further the commercial press ink printed magazines on the nearby Walmart magazine rack looked correct under the same lights. That was puzzling!

I guess I'm having doubts that with newer inkjet technology that there may not be a middle ground reference print viewing light if there are these kind of appearance extremes of prints sold to customers who may use wonky lighting that reacts differently to certain brands of printing ink and paper.

"I misspoke. I knew what lights you used. I really wanted to know what you kept seeing in the final print under any reference lighting that made you want to do test prints. What colors did you find were off?"
Not sure what you mean by this.  I guess the only way I can answer is to again state that it's next to impossible to match a display with a printed image, so the testing process is an intermediate step using the displayed image as a very good starting point.  I look carefully at the test and determine what needs adjustment - density, contrast, colour etc.  As I also mentioned, a properly colour managed file is not as much of an issue, so there is usually a minor adjustment for the paper I'm printing on, using soft proofing of course. 

"The reason I ask is to confirm whether you've experienced strangeness in these 5000K fluorescent bulbs that might have brought out fluorescing caused by particular brands of printer ink and dye formulations."   The answer to this one is NO, I have never seen what you are referring to with the 5000K Fluorescent bulbs, although they do tend to drop in colour temp and intensity over a period of time.  Therefore I think from this point forward I will try to set up a totally different viewing/judging lighting system, hence my original question(s).

"To press the point even further the commercial press ink printed magazines on the nearby Walmart magazine rack looked correct under the same lights. That was puzzling!"  I agree, that does seem rather puzzling, although in my opinion there's one word that explains all of this - "Walmart" , not exactly your go-to lab for accurate printing.  I have never used the Fuji inks or papers, no am I about to do so, therefore I cannot comment on their possible metameric issues.

"middle ground reference print viewing light"  Interesting comment Tim, you may be correct in that assumption.  Good food for thought!

Gary 

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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2017, 05:12:51 PM »

I beliebe one should take the kruithof curve also into account: https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand:Kruithof_curve_2.svg

Interesting chart. Wonder what it says about adaptation.

The image below I just shot of the same vanity sink area I demo'd the deer print/CCchart comparison but now have both 4000K Hyperikon and 5000K Soraa turned on side by side that shows these subtle tinting variants. I chose a bold font color temp label in 255RGB white to allow comparison to any 6500K calibrated monitor. Funny how it looks warmer than the OBA white porcelain sink which has R=G=B neutral readouts on the 4000K side.

I'm also testing if I can use these as grow lights for the mint & basil herbs shown in the sink.
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BobShaw

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2017, 06:20:50 PM »

Lots of great technical information here but, on the practical side ...

A couple of years ago the Australian government tried unsuccessfully to ban incandescent light globes. However I would say that they will disappear within 5 years for lack of interest anyway. LED is now almost as cheap to buy, far cheaper to run and gives to most people a better light. I can see all galleries and households moving to them. I run a whole wall of lights on a small transformer.

So although i have Solux globes in my print station I am sort of wondering why, as the gallery is LED and most customers will be LED.
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GrahamBy

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2017, 05:22:32 AM »


So although i have Solux globes in my print station I am sort of wondering why, as the gallery is LED and most customers will be LED.

Exactly... so far as I can see, the ideal viewing light is whatever print will eventually be viewed in. 2000 Lux D65 might be nice for picking faults or matching packaging materials, but I'd suspect most in-home viewing is closer to 200 Lux. For commercial purposes, whatever conditions it will be sold in... :)
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2017, 05:38:24 AM »

Lots of great technical information here but, on the practical side ...

A couple of years ago the Australian government tried unsuccessfully to ban incandescent light globes. However I would say that they will disappear within 5 years for lack of interest anyway. LED is now almost as cheap to buy, far cheaper to run and gives to most people a better light. I can see all galleries and households moving to them. I run a whole wall of lights on a small transformer.

So although i have Solux globes in my print station I am sort of wondering why, as the gallery is LED and most customers will be LED.

Continuous spectral white light from LEDs is not easy to create and what is available as white light LEDs is made by several methods; 2 or 3 color LEDs, one or more phosphor coatings, quantum dot coatings etc.  If it remains unpredictable which white LEDs will be used for display then the full spectrum halogens in your printing station are still a sound solution.

When everywhere a more standard full spectrum white LED will be used this approach can change, my bet is on the very small quantum dot coating types as researched in the Vanderbilt University:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode#cite_note-121


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

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Wayne Fox

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2017, 11:02:29 AM »

Exactly... so far as I can see, the ideal viewing light is whatever print will eventually be viewed in. 2000 Lux D65 might be nice for picking faults or matching packaging materials, but I'd suspect most in-home viewing is closer to 200 Lux. For commercial purposes, whatever conditions it will be sold in... :)
I have a little different take on this.  I've been printing since the 70's including owning a pretty large photo lab, and a properly lit viewing area is something I've dealt with for decades. To me the critical component of a viewing or evaluation station is to make sure I don't have any weaknesses in any part of the spectrum or that some parts are over represented.  A print that looks good in such a viewing area will generally look just fine no matter what light is used on it in the final location.  I think trying to match the light that might be used when the print is displayed is a rabbit hole that doesn't really have a good answer and really doesn't lead to any where useful.  Additionally many prints end up with lighting that varies through the day.

One issue that I've been dealing with lately however are clients that have a lighting to illuminate the print, but are using some very low quality compact fluorescent. I think I'm to the point of modifying the hanging tips handout I include with a piece to address this and offer some ideas on where to obtain better quality lights for these circumstances.

Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2017, 04:36:29 PM »

The Hyperikon 5000K 110º flood arrived yesterday and thought I provide a comparison to the Soraa and 4000K version with a more non-changing scene of the bathroom vanity sink area in my home.

The Hyperikon has a slightly pinkish blue color temp next to the Soraa but I couldn't rule out adaptation between the two as the cause. The 5000K lit print sample's white balance tinting is a bit different from the full scene of the same bulb above it deciding to error on the side of staying true to what I saw of the print to my display. All of these lights induce a slight bias in this way when changing focusing points between screen to actual scene if viewing one over the other too long. The Solux MR16 4700K was no different.

All of them rendered color pretty close visually to my 6500K calibrated display.
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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2017, 09:45:21 PM »

As a printing novice, my question is the same as Garnick's bur more elementary. What practical (and hopefully simple) lighting system will best allow me to evaluate prints in my study?

Thanks

F.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2017, 02:17:56 AM »

As a printing novice, my question is the same as Garnick's bur more elementary. What practical (and hopefully simple) lighting system will best allow me to evaluate prints in my study?

Thanks

F.

A simple lamp fixture. I thought the photos made it clear how simple it can be. Just get any of the bulbs I've shown, screw it in the lamp and your good to go.

Maybe I'm missing something in your question like maybe your study doesn't have a place to put a lamp. Not sure.

Here's all three 4000K & 5000K installed in an $8 lamp stand.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 02:24:46 AM by Tim Lookingbill »
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William Chitham

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2017, 10:05:33 AM »

A google search fro "high cri led" turned up a company called Yuji who seem to be talking our language:

http://www.yujiintl.com/high-cri-led-lighting

https://store.yujiintl.com/collections/high-cri-led-module/products/vtc-series-d50-5000k-high-cri-mcpcb-led-module-unit-5-pcs?variant=25955916551

Anybody heard of them?

William Chitham.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2017, 12:13:32 PM »

Haven't heard of them, but the CRI numbers are pretty impressive, 98 CRI but better yet between 94 and 98 so very consistent across all colors tested.

Certainly worth testing, but would need to find a manufacturer that uses their modules in their lights?  they seem to sell modules but not actual fixtures other than one that appears to be a standard bulb replacement. 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 12:16:41 PM by Wayne Fox »
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scyth

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Re: Print Station Lighting--Solux-Fixture options etc
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2017, 09:33:43 PM »

Haven't heard of them

solux, yuji, soraa and some others were discussed in a long topic about dcamprof camera profiles creation tool here... in terms of the spectrum quality...
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