Matting large 12 x 18" images and warping issue

[dwdallam]

I'm having a problem with my prints having a warbled looks to them when glare hits them in the frame. When there is no glare, the image looks flat, but if you move around and find a glare angle, you can see the image is not perfectly flat from the highlights.

I'm using professional aluminum frames that screw together with wedge type connectors , a white core mat, and cardboard backing white on both sides called "xboard" backing from Redimat.com. I'm using four spring type clips to hold the backing against the matting and image when installed in the frame. I attached the picture to the mating with mounting tape, working my way down to flatten the image as much as possible, and tape all four corners and sides, with about 2" untaped on all sides to let the image breath.

Is this a common problem, or is there a way to fix it?

[sgwrx]

i use a similar frame, only it has 8 total spring type clips that are about 3" long which wedge between the frame and mounting board. i don't have any problems with the same size print. i don't trim the print at all, it's a full sheet of 13x19 paper. perhaps the 8 clips, 2 per side, makes the difference.

EDIT: oh, when i mount, i use a t-hinge only at the top edge.

I'm having a problem with my prints having a warbled looks to them when glare hits them in the frame. When there is no glare, the image looks flat, but if you move around and find a glare angle, you can see the image is not perfectly flat from the highlights.

I'm using professional aluminum frames that screw together with wedge type connectors , a white core mat, and cardboard backing white on both sides called "xboard" backing from Redimat.com. I'm using four spring type clips to hold the backing against the matting and image when installed in the frame. I attached the picture to the mating with mounting tape, working my way down to flatten the image as much as possible, and tape all four corners and sides, with about 2" untaped on all sides to let the image breath.

Is this a common problem, or is there a way to fix it?
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[dlashier]

Most likely you are not using heavy enough paper. I hinge only at top left and right with about two inches of tape and have no problems, but I use heavy rag paper, about 28 mils, but anything 18 mils or greater should be fine. I sometimes print on PA Hotpress, 325 g/sm, 19 mils, and have no problem with it either. Also I use at least two spring clips per side, usually three on the long sides with frames this size.

- DL

[Jonathan Wienke]

The best (but of course most expensive) solution is to mount the print to some foamcore. That will completely eliminate any hint of warping, no matter what type of paper you use.

[Chris_T]

I'm having a problem with my prints having a warbled looks to them when glare hits them in the frame. When there is no glare, the image looks flat, but if you move around and find a glare angle, you can see the image is not perfectly flat from the highlights.

I'm using professional aluminum frames that screw together with wedge type connectors , a white core mat, and cardboard backing white on both sides called "xboard" backing from Redimat.com. I'm using four spring type clips to hold the backing against the matting and image when installed in the frame. I attached the picture to the mating with mounting tape, working my way down to flatten the image as much as possible, and tape all four corners and sides, with about 2" untaped on all sides to let the image breath.

Is this a common problem, or is there a way to fix it?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72099\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What kind of paper are you using? Can you be more specific about what you meant by "warbled"?

I find that my 13"x19" prints that are NOT matte will show ripples when viewed under glass at an angle. Matte prints don't seem to have this problem, perhaps because their surfaces are not reflective. The ripples are very similar to fhose found on traditional prints that are not dry mounted.

There are dry mounting products for digital prints, but I'm not interested in dry mounting.

[Gordon Buck]

If I'm not careful when spraying a protective coating, the print will develop a few ripples.  Sometimes - if I'm lucky - the ripples go away after a day or so.

[dwdallam]

OK well the prints are from Costco on Fuji Crystal Archieve paper. The clips are the ones metioned here, spring type that you press down and slide under the frame between teh backing board and the frame. However, on the long side, I'm only using one, not two.

I'll try using only one hing, which perhaps, and hopefully, will allow the image to roll down the matting and not warble.

What I mean by warble is that when viewed from a certain angle, the light hits the image and you can see that it looks not flat, but wavey a bit. It's a similar look such that if you hang a cloth backdrop and look at it from the side, you can see slight waves in it as compared to looking at it from dead on straight and not refelctions.

Yes, I could use foamcore and glue the image to the foamcore first, but that is a lot more expensive. Let me try using the one hing method and see waht I get. I actually think I did do that on my first two recently, but the warping effect was even worse.

[dwdallam]

The best (but of course most expensive) solution is to mount the print to some foamcore. That will completely eliminate any hint of warping, no matter what type of paper you use.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72122\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hey Johnathan.

So you would glue it to the foamcore and then use the matting and frame like usual? I've seen some photographers in town who mount the matting and image to foamcore, and then don't even mount them in a frame. How do you do yours?

[framah]

Ok... here's your first problem. You need alot more spring clips per side to hold the package flat in the frame. 4 per short side and 5 per long side.  Especially since you are only backing it with another piece of mat type board and not at least 1/8" foam core.

Then stop putting tape all way around the print and stop taping it to the back of the mat. 2 "T" hinges at the top of the photo about 2 to 3 inches in from the ends  will allow it to expand and contract as it will want to. Taping it all way around only increases the rippling/wavy effect as it traps the photo with nowhere to expand but up into the middle of  the mat.

A sheet of foam core is not more expensive than the stuff you are backing it with now.
 
You say it would be too expensive to have the photo dry mounted. What is it worth to you to have the finished piece look good enough that someone might want to buy it if you are planning to sell them not to mention having it look good enough that YOU would want to hang it in your house?

The average cost to have that dry mounted by a professional framer would be around 15 to 20 dollars.

Not really alot to have it look right.

My comments are based on my being a certified picture framer with almost 15 years owning and running my own framing business.

[dlashier]

OK well the prints are from Costco on Fuji Crystal Archieve paper.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72251\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hinge mounting that thin a paper at 12x18 is marginal depending on your climate conditions. You need to get yourself a drymount press.

- DL

[ddolde]

12x18 is hardly large but....I drymount this size.  I avoid the cheap soft white foam board like the plague however.  It dents way too easily.   I use Rising 8 ply board as the backing board.  It's archival and very smooth.  Won't dent either.

[Chris_T]

OK well the prints are from Costco on Fuji Crystal Archieve paper. The clips are the ones metioned here, spring type that you press down and slide under the frame between teh backing board and the frame. However, on the long side, I'm only using one, not two.

I'll try using only one hing, which perhaps, and hopefully, will allow the image to roll down the matting and not warble.

What I mean by warble is that when viewed from a certain angle, the light hits the image and you can see that it looks not flat, but wavey a bit. It's a similar look such that if you hang a cloth backdrop and look at it from the side, you can see slight waves in it as compared to looking at it from dead on straight and not refelctions.

Yes, I could use foamcore and glue the image to the foamcore first, but that is a lot more expensive. Let me try using the one hing method and see waht I get. I actually think I did do that on my first two recently, but the warping effect was even worse.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72251\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The Fuji Crystal Archieve paper is not matte, and will have the wavey problem as you described, which is the same as what I called ripples. If you look at large traditional prints in a gallery or museum, you will see the same thing. Perhaps these ripples will lead people to believe that they are traditional prints. <g>.

As mentioned, I don't like to dry mount my prints. One reason I print mostly on matte paper is to get around this problem.

Contrary to the suggestion to use more spring clips, a frame shop pro told me that they only use a single clip on each side. I have tried more clips, thicker mat boards, wider borders on the prints and different hinging methods. None of them can get rid of the problem. I believe that it is due to the paper's reflective surface.

[Dave Carter]

A sheet of foam core is not more expensive than the stuff you are backing it with now.
 
You say it would be too expensive to have the photo dry mounted. What is it worth to you to have the finished piece look good enough that someone might want to buy it if you are planning to sell them not to mention having it look good enough that YOU would want to hang it in your house?

The average cost to have that dry mounted by a professional framer would be around 15 to 20 dollars.

Not really alot to have it look right.

My comments are based on my being a certified picture framer with almost 15 years owning and running my own framing business.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72265\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have a similar problem.  If I dry mount this size, what thickness and make board do you recommend?  Also, do you ever mount the same paper on the back side of the board?  Or is it not necessary?  
I think I might try it.
Thanks, Dave

[framah]

Forgive me, Chris, but your frameshop "pro" is an idiot.   Just because they have a frame shop, doesn't make them a "pro".  There is NO WAY ANYONE (who really knows what they are doing!) would install a piece this size and only use ONE spring clip per side. What happens to the rest of that side? It isn't being held in tightly along the length of the side and looks like H***. The whole idea is to have enough clips so the whole piece is in tightly against the glass.  The pros idea would mean that I don't need to put more than one pin into the frame on a wood frame per side and that it is ok that the piece looks like it is going to fall out of the frame.

That is one of the more idiotic ideas I have heard in all my time framing.  You seriously need to find another framer if that is  what they are doing for you as they aren't knowledgeable enough to be in business and will invariably mess up your work some time in the future.

Really... find someone who is certified and you will not get this kind of misinformation.

I like the idea of 8 ply rag as a mounting board but foam core only dents if you push in on it. Handle all of your art like it is as valuable as it is and you won't dent the foam core.  To be honest, the best mounting material is a thin sheet of aluminium. But now we are really talking expensive!!
   One of the draw backs to dry mounting is the effect of telegraphing the surface of the substrate thru to the face of the photo. That is why aluminium is the best.

Sorry for ranting, but it really riles me when I hear of so called framers giving out such bad info.
Of course, on the plus side... I get more work by fixing their messes!!  

Dave... as to mounting the same paper on the other side... I know where you are coming from. Your assumption is that it will equal out the stresses of the glue and help the piece remain flat. I have done this on really large pieces but on small ones, there really isn't that much stress from the glue to make a difference. Also, that is why the whole package needs to be pinned (or spring clips) into the frame enough to make it lay flat.

OK.. I guess I'm done for now.

[larryg]

I had this problem in the past (I now own and run a gallery and frame shop) when I did shows and it was humid it would ripple all over the place

I now:

Dry mount every image of mine on gator board (much harder than foam core)
The foam core had a tendancy to warp with larger prints.

I also dry mount the matts so all is flat and remains that way.

This would work for any paper you would be using   (you can either cold mount or vacu-press it).

Much better results for me

[Jonathan Wienke]

Hey Johnathan.

So you would glue it to the foamcore and then use the matting and frame like usual? I've seen some photographers in town who mount the matting and image to foamcore, and then don't even mount them in a frame. How do you do yours?

I had the print dry-mounted to foamcore, then placed the mat over the mounted print and trimmed the foamcore to the same size as the mat. I used a few pieces of the 3M acid-free photo mounting tape to keep the mat from moving around while trimming, like maybe a 1-inch piece in each corner. This also keeps the mat from shifting in relation to the print while in the frame. There's no real reason to dry-mount the mat(s) to the print; the photo tape is more than sufficient. I've never had a problem with the mat rippling.

[dwdallam]

20 Dollars to have in dry matted, or any matted, is WAY too much. I've seen nice falt iamges mounted by non professionals, so I know it can be done. In fact, in my next post, I found out how.

Ok... here's your first problem. You need alot more spring clips per side to hold the package flat in the frame. 4 per short side and 5 per long side.  Especially since you are only backing it with another piece of mat type board and not at least 1/8" foam core.

Then stop putting tape all way around the print and stop taping it to the back of the mat. 2 "T" hinges at the top of the photo about 2 to 3 inches in from the ends  will allow it to expand and contract as it will want to. Taping it all way around only increases the rippling/wavy effect as it traps the photo with nowhere to expand but up into the middle of  the mat.

A sheet of foam core is not more expensive than the stuff you are backing it with now.
 
You say it would be too expensive to have the photo dry mounted. What is it worth to you to have the finished piece look good enough that someone might want to buy it if you are planning to sell them not to mention having it look good enough that YOU would want to hang it in your house?

The average cost to have that dry mounted by a professional framer would be around 15 to 20 dollars.

Not really alot to have it look right.

My comments are based on my being a certified picture framer with almost 15 years owning and running my own framing business.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72265\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[dwdallam]

20 Dollars to have in dry matted, or any matted, is WAY too much. I've seen nice falt images mounted by non professionals, so I know it can be done. In fact, in my next post, I found out how.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72453\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I took one of the prints down and remounted it. I used a single hinge and put it all back together. about 95% of the warp is gone. However, I do notice that in my climate I get expansion and contraction which does warp some still. I will try the two hing method on one side next, which someone said will give the image more breathing room.

It looks like to get rid of this problem completely, a dry mount is indeed needed. I've heard a few different methods and materials for dry mounting here. I'm not ruling that method out either. Let's hear how some of you do it and the material you use.

I thought about how I would do it, and came up with this method:

1) Cut the mat to the specified size you need for the image.
2) Cut the backing board to the size of the mat.
3) Put the matting on top of the backing board, and trace the inside hole of the matting to the backing board.
4) Set the image over the trace lines as close as possible after applying the adhesive inside the trace lines which are on the backing board.

Will this work, or am I missing something here? Also, what type of adhesive do you use?

[framah]

It's dry mounted, not dry matted. Two different words there. No such thing as dry matted.

1) Cut the mat to the specified size you need for the image.
2) Cut the backing board to the size of the mat.
3) Put the matting on top of the backing board, and trace the inside hole of the matting to the backing board.
4) Set the image over the trace lines as close as possible after applying the adhesive inside the trace lines which are on the backing board.


 Step 1 - ok

    After that, you are creating more work for yourself than necessary. If you want to spray mount it down you would want to leave the backer board larger than the mat size.  Spray the board and place the photo in the middle of the sprayed area. Once you have pressed the photo into place, you then place the mat over the photo and once it is attached , you just cut away the extra backer board to the edge of the mat and you are done.  
They also make a board with adhesive already on it. You just peel the release paper off and there it is. Better than breathing the spray!

You never want to trace the opening of the mat as you can get marks on the bevel of the mat and ruin it.

$20 is only alot in respect to how little you can afford. That is a fair price to have a professional do it  for you.   Alot of beginning artists can not afford to have their work done professionally. Doesn't mean we are ripping you off, just that you can't afford us yet.
There will come a point in your career when your time is better spent shooting than framing.
 Like the photographer I have in here with 14 pieces for a gallery. His bill is over $3500 when I'm done but his photos sell for $1500 to $2000 each.

[stever]

i regularly mount to acid free foamcoare with 3M photomount -- this works well as long as i mount a blank or scrap piece of photo paper to the back -- otherwise i get warping from differential moisture absorbtion