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Author Topic: Why do we do it?  (Read 4647 times)

N80

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Why do we do it?
« on: February 16, 2017, 10:30:40 am »

In a different thread Rob C made this observation:

"It's an emotion that extends to photography itself: an internal battle of wits manifest in pointless attempts to create something new, when the realisation is that nothing new remains to be created in photography, the best outcome being that we, too, may replicate some version of the best of what's gone before.


Frankly, it's all somewhat depressing. I think the joy of photography lies in the learning of technique. Once you can do whatever you want to do, the only point in doing it is if somebody wants to pay you for doing it. To do, for yourself, something that is just a constant reaffirmation of your ability to do it, seems crazy. Better moving on and trying to conquer some other discipline."


This is interesting to me for several reasons. First, is it true that photography as an art form, or even a hobby, has run its course and there is nothing new to shoot?

And if it is true, would any other discipline be different? Painting, writing, composing music? Why would there be new frontiers in those disciplines but not photography?

And what about the knowledge that many if not most of us have come to accept: that we will probably never make a photograph that will make us famous, say anything new or even be purchased by anyone?

If any or all of this is true, then why do we do it? Why do we spend so much money on equipment, so much time on shooting and processing if we will never sell anything or never make a truly 'great; or remotely famous photograph. (Of course many here probably make a living at various forms of photography, I would say those are exempt from this exercise.)
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George

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stamper

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2017, 10:36:39 am »

The world is constantly evolving and there will be something new to shoot. The demise of Donald Trump will be worth shooting and that will be novel? A defeatist attitude can be overcome as things change.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2017, 11:04:25 am »

If the goal is "new, great, sellable, famous," than the prospects might be indeed be depressing.

If, however, the goal is to provoke emotions, even if only in ourselves, capture and preserve a moment, even if only for ourselves, than the opportunities are limitless.

N80

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2017, 11:17:14 am »

If the goal is "new, great, sellable, famous," than the prospects might be indeed be depressing.

If, however, the goal is to provoke emotions, even if only in ourselves, capture and preserve a moment, even if only for ourselves, than the opportunities are limitless.

Agreed. But when I consider what I have spent, as an amateur, just on my current equipment, printer, scanner, and computer it is tens of thousands of dollars. I shudder to think what my "keeper" to dollar ratio is.

So I will make a confession here: I like the equipment as well as the process and the end product. I like the look, feel and potential capabilities of the various bodies and lenses I own. On some levels this seems silly. On others not so much. Most of us like certain aspects of our cars that don't necessarily affect performance. Some folks but certain washers, dryers and refrigerators because of how they look. And so I like the stuff. I enjoy (now that I've found the right software) the post processing. I enjoy, sometimes, the printing, which is still voodoo to me. And I enjoy looking at my images. Even ones that leave other people unimpressed.

But over the years it has been decisive family moments, snapshots if you will, that have become the most precious of images. I like to think they are on a higher level than the typical one handed cell phone snapshot and this is usually affirmed by friends and family.

The number of "art" shots that are important to me are far fewer and family and friends seem to find them inscrutable. The rarity with which one ends up as a high quality print makes them even more precious to me.

So I guess that is what still drives me to keep doing it and spending so much money on it.

But I also think there are new and unique ways to shoot the same old subject matter. That drives me too.
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George

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Otto Phocus

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2017, 11:27:47 am »

I am lucky, like many? hobbyist photographers, I only photograph for myself. An overwhelming number of things in the world have not yet been photographed by me so there is endless opportunities for me to photograph something new and unique.

Perhaps the photographic community could benefit if we paid a little less attention to what others do and focus on what we, as an individual, do.

Self actualization is the only reason I "do" photography. I hardly think I am in any way unique in this.
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RSL

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2017, 11:48:19 am »

Slobodan hit the nail on the head. The main question is: what do you mean by new? If you set out with a camera in hand to record something that's never been photographed, you're probably out of luck. But if you set out to create something that can provoke an emotion, or even to produce something that can give the viewer the kind of transcendental experience great music and great poetry can give, then the possibilities are endless. As Picasso (possibly not originally) said: "Good artists borrow. Great artists steal." The point he was making was the difference between what I call "tourist photography" and art. If you're setting out to make a picture of Half Dome, and hope to make something "new," you're screwed from the start. Ansel already did that. It was a great tourist shot. But if you're setting out to create something with the emotional impact of Gene Smith's shots from the asylum in Haiti, and if you're up to the task, there IS something new under the sun.
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JNB_Rare

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2017, 01:00:39 pm »

I am lucky, like many? hobbyist photographers, I only photograph for myself.

I am lucky as well. For me, photography provides a creative outlet, a form of rejuvenating therapy, and a contemplative exercise. I love the outdoors and new places and I’ll often simply photograph the picturesque and interesting scenes in front of me. At the same time, I’m keen to make images that transcend time and place, evoke emotions or memories, or provoke a new thought. If I happen to make an image that strikes a chord with someone else, then I am pleased.
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James Clark

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2017, 01:47:13 pm »

Slobodan hit the nail on the head. The main question is: what do you mean by new? If you set out with a camera in hand to record something that's never been photographed, you're probably out of luck. But if you set out to create something that can provoke an emotion, or even to produce something that can give the viewer the kind of transcendental experience great music and great poetry can give, then the possibilities are endless. As Picasso (possibly not originally) said: "Good artists borrow. Great artists steal." The point he was making was the difference between what I call "tourist photography" and art. If you're setting out to make a picture of Half Dome, and hope to make something "new," you're screwed from the start. Ansel already did that. It was a great tourist shot. But if you're setting out to create something with the emotional impact of Gene Smith's shots from the asylum in Haiti, and if you're up to the task, there IS something new under the sun.

Good Lord - I'm 100% in agreement with Russ.  (See, there IS something new under the sun ;)  )

That said, for me personally, creating a new piece of work is simply fun.  Going somewhere new, or seeing something new in a familiar place is interesting.  Recording it lets me take it home with me, and maybe share it with others.  Seeing it come to life on screen or in a print is still magical,  and sharing with others and creating a sense of enjoyment within their reactions is fantastic.  Selling a piece or wining recognition in a contest is great, too.  All of these things make it "worth it" to create new work.   In short, the "why" is simply because there's not much else I'd rather be doing. 

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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2017, 02:06:08 pm »

If the goal is "new, great, sellable, famous," than the prospects might be indeed be depressing.

If, however, the goal is to provoke emotions, even if only in ourselves, capture and preserve a moment, even if only for ourselves, than the opportunities are limitless.
I agree completely and one is always surprised and pleased when what appeals to the photographer also appeals to others. 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2017, 02:56:28 pm »

A few points. 

First, there are still lots of opportunity to create something new, especially with digital.  I can tell you as an architectural photographer who learned on film, what I can do today with digital I would never have been able to with film, especially with interiors.  The amount of lighting equipment needed to properly balance an interior in the film days was immense, and even if you did it right, the image still looked lit. 

Not to mention, as an architectural photographer, I am always shooting something that has never been shot before, especially with interiors. 

But that has nothing to do with why I shoot.  As another photographer said, I photograph to see what things look like in photographs, or to see how I can make them look photographed. 

Last, insofar as creating a memorable photograph, one advantage pros have that many amateurs do not is time.  My life is photography.  It is what I do all day, every day, day after day.  I often go to bed after working on a project and wake up working on a new one.  It's not a hobby I can only do in my free time, and the amount of time I have dedicated to the craft has been immense, as much as a doctor does to his. 

One can not expect to be able to produce a great photograph on demand without the practice, just like one can not play the guitar like Hendrix without practice.  With a full time job, how you manage to acquire this many hours without alienating your spouse, kids, all your friends, becoming a hermit may not be possible. 

I once heard a great story about Picasso (not sure if it is true, but could be) being commissioned by a rich tourist for a painting in the morning before the tourist left for a day trip.  When the tourist returned, Picasso had finished.  The tourist made a comment about how great it must be to work for a few hours and earn $10K (or whatever the large fee was).  Picasso replied that that tourist was paying him for the many years he spent prior to perfecting his craft. 
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 03:04:43 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2017, 03:58:19 pm »

Quote
Frankly, it's all somewhat depressing. I think the joy of photography lies in the learning of technique.

The joy I get out of photography is how it makes reality look different and more interesting from photographing it and viewing within a frame.

The more interesting it appears usually means one has not seen it before otherwise one would toss it and not waste their time. No one can be sure there is nothing new under the sun to be done with any creative and expressive medium. Like getting a tin ear with playing the same song over and over expecting it to get better (which some do) the same holds true with creating images. Sometimes you have to walk away from it and take another approach no matter how unorthodox it appears.
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2017, 04:07:43 pm »

Faced with a subject that had been photographed many, many times before and when reminded of that, Michael used to have a very simple response, "Yes, but I haven't shot it before".

At once affirming his confidence in his own abilities and also perhaps in the hope of creating something unique.

James Clark

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2017, 04:18:28 pm »

Faced with a subject that had been photographed many, many times before and when reminded of that, Michael used to have a very simple response, "Yes, but I haven't shot it before".

At once affirming his confidence in his own abilities and also perhaps in the hope of creating something unique.

Y'know... that's a great point.
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Rob C

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2017, 04:20:28 pm »

" (Of course many here probably make a living at various forms of photography, I would say those are exempt from this exercise.)"... N80

I think you're right!

However, as I used to do that but now don't do anything to earn a living, just do my best to keep hangin' on in there, I may be qualified to hold a view too...

Insofar as the pro side goes, I think Keith was very accurate in his statement: " because I have to." That's why I took it up professionally in the first place. It's the same reason that usually makes me fall back into line despite the self-questioning that comes to me every now and again: it's in the DNA.

But the problems that I outlined, that gave rise to N80's thread here, remain, too. For many people their sense of photographic development and identity is never established in their own mind, mostly, I'd imagine, because they don't get the time to do enough of it to be able to stand back and see themselves in the mirror of photographic life, so the thing becomes a quest to catch up with a little red carrot at the end of the string before their nose. Well, work at it for a lifetime, and after you've caught and eaten that carrot, there's not a heap left to drive you forward other than momentum or habit. And that pesky DNA! I can't tell you which is the strongest factor; I don't know.

Part of the problem is that photography covers so many fields. Some are totally about self, some not as much and demand external co-operation in order to be possible. I couldn't do my professional stuff alone: I need models. As bad, without a client there would never have been much justifcation for spending the huge sums of money that were involved in that, but as I couldn't have financed much of it on my own, it's pretty academic. And even if I'd been a rich guy, it wouldn't have been much good: the best models also need motivation beyond the pennies: they are driven by success and prestige too, which is why Vogue et al. get away with fiscal murder. It's one of the reasons why some girls would not accept stock shoots. All photography is not equal.

Now, as amateur, it's being said that the world's wide open for new experiences, and for many that's true. In fact for most people it's true, regardless of status.

The question, of course, is one of relative value. Is what you do for yourself as worthy the doing (in one's own estimation) as what one was doing professionally? When the answer isn't a positive one, life gets a little awkward! So awkward that I sometimes feel I'm running on habit, just like a mechanical rabbit.

"If, however, the goal is to provoke emotions, even if only in ourselves, capture and preserve a moment, even if only for ourselves, than the opportunities are limitless."

Slobodan mentions the expression of emotions through photography; that's a fine target, but I'd suggest it's seldom achieved, not due to skill levels, but due to the fact that so much photography has nothing to do with emotion, but everything to do with pretty. St Ansel did a version of that throughout his 'artistic' life by incorporating print exaggeration. But what the hell did he say? What the hell did that split rock ever say? Nothing! It just is. Just as is the opportunity of tripping on a loose flagstone and breaking one's head and dying on the spot. Shit happens. Let's not even think about buses or Hernandez.

Preserve a moment. Now you're talking! But that's not always what one is doing: I shot a portrait of my wife when she was about forty-two or so, just for an International Driving Permit, and today, it remains the most valuable possession that I have. It was never intended to be anything but utilitarian. I never gave it a thought back then - didn't even keep the negative - but today it's come to mean something very much else. Where the art, where the emotion? In this instance they don't count.

Hence, as I questioned in my earlier post, is there any point in just doing what you know you can do? A rut is a rut is a routine. How many different ways are there of making pretty much the same goddam shot, over and over again, however well you think you may be doing it? It's been said of, as well as by many well known photographers and musicians that they spend their lives making the same photo and writing the same song ad infinitum. Saul Leiter did that, Adams did that and I am still doing that, not to mention several other snappers on LuLa too. Is it truly worth the time to us, or are we doing it from habit, or so as not to have to think or to do something else we'd rather not face? You have no idea how many things that I find to do before I run out of excuses to avoid housework.

;-)

Rob C

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2017, 05:13:41 pm »

Why do I do it? It's a heck of a lot less expensive than seeing a shrink and achieves the same end: a calmer, more fulfilled and contented life.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 06:33:33 pm by mecrox »
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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2017, 05:20:07 pm »

You need to go shoot with some teenagers, Rob.
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N80

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2017, 06:12:37 pm »

Ecclesiastes says:

What has been is what will be,   and what has been done is what will be done,   and there is nothing new under the sun.  Is there a thing of which it is said,   “See, this is new”?   It has been  already   in the ages before us.

Who am I to disagree with Rob C and King Solomon? But while there may be no new thing, there are as many ways of looking at a thing as there are eyes and minds.
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George

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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2017, 07:50:16 pm »

No new thing to whom? Does one person whether thousands of years ago or today speak for everyone?

No one remembers how they saw the world when they were children? I remember, but maybe some block a past they'ld rather not relive. And maybe that past involved photographing things that got tiresome and old because they made a living at it. That I can relate to.

The movie "La La Land" I saw last night addresses this quite well when it comes to pursuing one's dreams.

I think the act of photography plays out for me as if I'm in a dream state. Or maybe for me it's just another way to focus on the world in a more contemplative, non-questioning and non-judgemental way.
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donbga

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2017, 09:27:28 pm »

When questions or discussions like this come up, I recommend reading 'Art and Fear: Observations On the Perils (and Rewards) of Artmaking' to recharge ones impetus for making photographs.

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Rob C

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Re: Why do we do it?
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2017, 04:55:08 am »

You need to go shoot with some teenagers, Rob.

Sharon, no!

I much prefer the idea, today, of women in their thirties and forties. I've had a bucket of young, fresh, naïve, innocent etc. etc. and what interests me now is the grown lady, a woman with total self-confidence, a lived-in face and cool, even cold, sophistication.

Yes, I still appreciate a good shape, of course, but even that isn't as important as face; though, that said, body does give an undeniable sense of wholeness to the person, and because of that, a good one enhances a good face to make it even more interesting. I guess it's like the setting for a jewel. I think that's why I have this constant, subliminal or not so subliminal urge for a 500 series Hassy. When I owned those things I wasn't as interested in sophistication: I thought I wanted young beauty and physical perfection (which didn't exist). Today, that tight, square format and a great face would be a touch of heaven. I even have a studio flash left over from those day! (Don't believe that I ever give up - totally.)

In fact, in some ways my heart and mind have returned to where they were when I began to buy real cameras. My first was an Exakta Varex lla with a 135mm Schneider Tele-Xenar. I bought them to do heads.

No, not teens... I don't want to feel the grandpa side of myself too much.

So that's why in view of the lack of subjects like the above, I find myself drawn into shooting ghosts in windows. Trouble is, as they live in every window, one quickly realises that not even ghosts are all born equal. As Leiter said, had he known which shots would be the "good ones" he wouldn't have had to make the thousands of duds, too. My heart goes out to him: at least with digital it only costs me time. But the ultimate, unquantifiable frustrations are shared with either medium.

;-)

Rob

« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 02:37:16 pm by Rob C »
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