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Author Topic: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts  (Read 4030 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2017, 12:48:13 AM »

Nikon just lost a billion dollars in market capitalisation as their share price plummeted.

Probably because some investors read "extraordinary loss" and thought it meant a loss of extraordinary proportion... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2017, 04:03:37 AM »

Companies come and go, who cares? Even if they do go down (which Nikon is far from), their products keep being supported for years.

For now, as a photographer, I still feel that Nikon's cameras and lenses are the best there is for my needs. And that with their best camera 2.5 years old already. I don't care about the rest.

One thing is sure, I won't come to LL to check investment advice. ;)

Anybody interested in an objective analysis may want to refer to this article: http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-nikon-q3-financials.html

Cheers,
Bernard

Thanks for the link, interesting read. This caught my attention:

"Iím still trying to analyze the exact numbers, but the thing Nikon didnít report but is essential to understanding where they are is this: Nikon lost ILC market share in 2016. Thus, their claim that itís the declining market that defines their problem is not exactly true. Nikon is declining faster than the market in ILC, their primary brand driver. Coupled with no decline by Canon during the same time period, and we have a return to the 90ís: Canon has about half the ILC market, and Nikon about half of the remaining half."

Canon may be boring, and etc and all, but they are doing well in a shrinking market.

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2017, 04:07:50 AM »

Weakest is a relative term. Compared to what they've done with sensors and other electronic components, and compared to what Canon has to offer, Sony's optics are decidedly weak and sparse. What they've done with the GM series is good, as are many of their other recent E-mount lenses, but there are still many holes in their lens lineup, and their lack of ability to keep up with demand production-wise is telling. The addition of Nikon's optics production capacity would help a lot, and most of Nikon's best lens designs could also be easily adapted to suit the E-mount (keep the optical components, but change the mechanical and electronic components to suit a mirrorless rather than an SLR design).

I thought we were comparing to Nikon, and how Sony would benefit from acquiring them on, amongst other stuff, optical know how. Of course Sony has some holes in their E mount compared to Canon, but in 3 years, they have come a really long way. Basically, they are missing TS and super telephoto lenses. Given the way Canikon have that market to their own, I actually think that it would be useless for Sony to try to compete in that arena; they tried to do that with the A mount, no success.

Finally, designing lenses for DSLR vs. MILC, take s lot more than just keeping the optics while changing the mount/mechanical bits. Witness the change from say Zeiss Distagon 21 to Zeiss Loxia 21.

shadowblade

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2017, 04:50:50 AM »

I thought we were comparing to Nikon, and how Sony would benefit from acquiring them on, amongst other stuff, optical know how. Of course Sony has some holes in their E mount compared to Canon, but in 3 years, they have come a really long way. Basically, they are missing TS and super telephoto lenses. Given the way Canikon have that market to their own, I actually think that it would be useless for Sony to try to compete in that arena; they tried to do that with the A mount, no success.

That's because A-mount SLRs offered no benefit over the Canon/Nikon lineup for most supertele users while having many disadvantages. E-mount is completely different. It all comes down to the expanding utility of having true through-the-sensor focusing. At the moment, it's eye focusing. While great, this is limited to humans and some primates. But that's just the start - the possibilities for AI-driven focus and AI-triggered shooting are almost limitless.

Quote
Finally, designing lenses for DSLR vs. MILC, take s lot more than just keeping the optics while changing the mount/mechanical bits. Witness the change from say Zeiss Distagon 21 to Zeiss Loxia 21.

The Loxia is a completely different design optically, much smaller than the Distagon and with a smaller sensor-to-pupil distance. It's a completely different lens which just happens to have similar performance. It takes advantage of the E-mount's smaller flange distance to reduce the lens size. You could also just take the standard Distagon or Milvus and replace the mechanical couplings with a focus-by-wire system more suited to a mirrorless camera's focusing. It would be the same lens optically, and the same size as the original.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2017, 04:53:25 AM »

A lot of the success of the Sony E mount is the result Canon users tired of the Canon sensor under-performance who bought Sony bodies to mount their existing Canon lenses on.

100% of the 3 Sony a7 users I personally know belong to this category.

I am not saying that the a7x isn't a good camera, but now that Canon is picking up with better sensors, it will remain to be seen whether those guys stay with Sony (that will probably mean they like the EVF experience) or move back to Canon when image quality gets back to a higher level (which will probably mean they prefer OVFs or to use their lenses natively).

Another thing, is that our view at LL is strongly biased by the high average age of posters here who like smaller/lightweight bodies such as the Sony. I am not convinced this is representative of an overall trend in the market.

I am sure there are many, but I don't know any Nikon photographer having moved to Sony.

The main problem of Nikon, as highlighted by Thom, probably isn't the higher end FX bodies most of us are using. It is the lower end of the market where they have been losing. As part of that, they have also wasted a lot of cash in misguided initiatives such as the 1 series (although it had great technological merits), KeyMission,...

This being said, for high end users like us:
- Their recent lenses releases have been really outstanding, especially the new 70-200 f2.8 E FL, 105mm f1.4, 19mm f4 T/S,... everything their lens design team touches turns into gold it seems,
- They have all the technological blocks in their hands to do wonders also (including on sensor AF,...) when their higher mgt decides to do so,
- They have best in class image processing with Expeed, which is demonstrated by their systematic superior usage of Sony sensors compared to Sony themselves,
- They have by far the best AF system in the D5 and D500,
- ...

So there are worst situations to be in.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 05:13:36 AM by BernardLanguillier »
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razrblck

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2017, 06:46:01 AM »

Another thing, is that our view at LL is strongly biased by the high average age of posters here who like smaller/lightweight bodies such as the Sony. I am not convinced this is representative of an overall trend in the market.

Maybe but I think most people here, certainly the pros, understand that they need first and foremost the right [enough] tool for the job. The A7RII on a technical camera opens up a world of possibilities and is a faster, leaner tool than a digital back. On the other hand, digital backs have their own advantages both on a tech camera and on their on system cameras.

DSLRs will have a market for as long as they will be better at some jobs. For quite a few years mirrorless meant "small but with compromises". This is changing as technology gets better and manufacturers are putting more effort into making complete systems that work (like Fuji, but props to Sony for releasing some stellar lenses and promising services for pros). Olympus and Panasonic have been rather weak. They have the smallest (in most cases) MILCs but the experience with those cameras is not consistently good (or even consistently ok).

I don't know what's up with Nikon, they have focused some of their energies on products that have very little to no market. They pretty much forgot about DX for serious work, even when releasing the D500 there haven't been any new high quality DX primes since the 40mm 2.8/G in 2011! Not that there are many anyway, like four total? Two of which are macro lenses and one is a fisheye. Holy hell...

But hey, at least we can choose between 2541 different versions of the 18-55 kit lens...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2017, 08:08:25 AM »

I don't know what's up with Nikon, they have focused some of their energies on products that have very little to no market. They pretty much forgot about DX for serious work, even when releasing the D500 there haven't been any new high quality DX primes since the 40mm 2.8/G in 2011! Not that there are many anyway, like four total? Two of which are macro lenses and one is a fisheye. Holy hell...

Yes, they thought they'd be able to move their user base to FX...

The main problem of Nikon is really strategy or product planning.

Cheers,
Bernard
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hogloff

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2017, 09:22:07 AM »

Yes, they thought they'd be able to move their user base to FX...

The main problem of Nikon is really strategy or product planning.

Cheers,
Bernard

Which is a huge problem in any business.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2017, 09:50:44 AM »

Some sensible points above, from Bernard. Always an opinion I value. No doubt Nikon are still very good at their core business, witness recent lenses plus the D5 and D500 (on a side note, the recent 24-70 f2.8 seems to be a blunder?).

But, in terms of strategy, they seemed to always have been a bit off; I remember when Canon introduced the first FF DSLR, Nikon's reply was on the lines of "we don't make one, because it is not needed"; right... so it took them a while to release their first FF DSLR...

The DL, IMO, was too little too late; was the market ready to accommodate another 1 inch compact camera? Big electronic companies like Panasonic and Sony can churn put this stuff like peanuts; Canon, being conservative, jumped on the wagon getting the sensors from Sony and putting them inside tried and tested compact G-series chassis. Nikon probably tried to follow the same route, borrowing from the design sheet of the Nikon 1 series of cameras. With all the delays and difficulties, however, launching such compact today, would be a high risk; the market is essentially full.

Sure, some enthusiasts would scoop up the DL 18-50, for its novelty, but that is not enough to turn a profit, or sustain a new line of compact cameras.

scyth

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2017, 11:04:20 AM »

This is changing as technology gets better and manufacturers are putting more effort into making complete systems that work (like Fuji, but props to Sony for releasing some stellar lenses and promising services for pros). Olympus and Panasonic have been rather weak. They have the smallest (in most cases) MILCs but the experience with those cameras is not consistently good (or even consistently ok).

m43 was/is a more complete system than Fuji ...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2017, 04:37:59 PM »

The 24-70 f2.8 VR is a sweet lens delivering beautiful images. I shot it quite a bit and it is both sharp with a great look.

It's AF is wicked fast also on pro bodies.

Byt its main differentiating strength is of course that it is the only pro-grade standard zoom with VR. I spent a week on a sailing boat last year and I am not sure how I would gave managed with a Canon body.

Combining VR with the required durability (weather sealing, shock resistance) of pro lenses is a huge design challenge that nobody else has been able to tackle so far.

Now, it will be interesting to see what unfolds in the coming weeks...

Cheers,
Bernard

« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 09:27:53 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2017, 01:43:51 AM »

The 24-70 f2.8 VR is a sweet lens delivering beautiful images. I shot it quite a bit and it is both sharp with a great look.

It's AF is wicked fast also on pro bodies.

Byt its main differentiating strength is of course that it is the only pro-grade standard zoom with VR. I spent a week on a sailing boat last year and I am not sure how I would gave managed with a Canon body.

Combining VR with the required durability (weather sealing, shock resistance) of pro lenses is a huge design challenge that nobody else has been able to tackle so far.

Now, it will be interesting to see what unfolds in the coming weeks...

Cheers,
Bernard

Maybe for Nikon.

Other cameras use IBIS to give you IS with any 24-70, at no optical cost.
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davidgp

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2017, 02:06:22 AM »


But, in terms of strategy, they seemed to always have been a bit off; I remember when Canon introduced the first FF DSLR, Nikon's reply was on the lines of "we don't make one, because it is not needed"; right... so it took them a while to release their first FF DSLR...

That was a big opportunity lost for Nikon... When they released a FF body... Lot of professionals have already moved to Canon FF DSLR... That first movement from Canon last decade... And doing it well (I'm looking at you Pentax), gave Canon a big advantage...

davidgp

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2017, 02:13:19 AM »

A lot of the success of the Sony E mount is the result Canon users tired of the Canon sensor under-performance who bought Sony bodies to mount their existing Canon lenses on.

100% of the 3 Sony a7 users I personally know belong to this category.

I am not saying that the a7x isn't a good camera, but now that Canon is picking up with better sensors, it will remain to be seen whether those guys stay with Sony (that will probably mean they like the EVF experience) or move back to Canon when image quality gets back to a higher level (which will probably mean they prefer OVFs or to use their lenses natively).

Another thing, is that our view at LL is strongly biased by the high average age of posters here who like smaller/lightweight bodies such as the Sony. I am not convinced this is representative of an overall trend in the market.

I could be consider one of those... Now I'm at the decisive moment, buy my first FE lens or continue investing in EF glass... Probably I will go with FE... But as you say, probably I'm not representative...

- I like EVF over OVF
- I barely use AF (even when I was with Canon), my main work is on a tripod and landscapes...

You are right, looks like Canon is getting back with better sensors... And their dual pixel technology it is to be envied... But if I buy and FE lens, probably I will not look back...

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2017, 02:18:57 AM »

Maybe for Nikon.

Other cameras use IBIS to give you IS with any 24-70, at no optical cost.

For Nikon and Canon.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2017, 05:02:58 AM »

The 24-70 f2.8 VR is a sweet lens delivering beautiful images. I shot it quite a bit and it is both sharp with a great look.

It's AF is wicked fast also on pro bodies.

Byt its main differentiating strength is of course that it is the only pro-grade standard zoom with VR. I spent a week on a sailing boat last year and I am not sure how I would gave managed with a Canon body.

Combining VR with the required durability (weather sealing, shock resistance) of pro lenses is a huge design challenge that nobody else has been able to tackle so far.

Now, it will be interesting to see what unfolds in the coming weeks...

Cheers,
Bernard

The tests I have seen from magazines I "trust" (like Chasseur D' Images and Photo Responses) rate the lens rather poorly for the price. If I remember correctly, they give it a 3 star rating for sharpness on the optical bench. Especially poor in the corners, at A2 print sizes.

Compared to other 24-70 f2.8 lenses, say from Canon and even the new Sony FE, it certainly performs poorly.

I know sharpness is not the end of it all, but still...

Osprey

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2017, 06:44:34 AM »

Nikon didn't have the ability to do full frame at that point.  Up until the D3, Nikon had been following Canon's lead in technology for almost 25 years.

That was a big opportunity lost for Nikon... When they released a FF body... Lot of professionals have already moved to Canon FF DSLR... That first movement from Canon last decade... And doing it well (I'm looking at you Pentax), gave Canon a big advantage...
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hogloff

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2017, 08:56:05 AM »

For Nikon and Canon.

Cheers,
Bernard

Nope, but for Sony not only IS for every lens including some great Zeiss lenses, but also AF with just about any lens using the TAP adapter including some great legacy lens.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2017, 05:47:51 PM »

Innovation at Nikon...

http://nikonrumors.com/2017/02/22/nikon-d5-and-d500-100th-anniversary-sets-on-display-at-the-cp-show.aspx/

Now, what it means is that the D850 will not simply be a D810 with more pixels because we would have it already. What it means is that Nikon apparently understood they were running after the wrong target (Canon). Somehow, I see this as good news. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
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Paul2660

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Re: Nikon cancels DL series of compacts
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2017, 06:09:29 PM »

Well hopefully they will figure it out soon as Nikon is no longer manufacturing the D810 from same source.  Leaves a pretty big hole in the lineup.

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